Trade Avionics for Flight time? - Chicagoland Area

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go4Paul

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go4PL
Hi fellow pilots,


I have an Avidyne IFD440 (new in box), which if you aren't familiar with, is a pin for pin replacement for the GNS430W. As some of you may know, the 430 and 530 have been discontinued by Garmin a few years ago. I was planning on putting this IFD440 in a plane of my own, but things have changed. I want to see if there is anybody in the Chicago land area with a C182 that currently has a 430W installed in their plane that would like to trade their 430W for an IFD440 (the one I have has Bluetooth, WIFI, and Forward Looking Terrain FLTA built into it.) If you were to buy this unit from a local avionics shop, it would cost you $13,000.00. Also, if you haven't seen the new Avidyne IFD series - they are awesome! It has a touch screen with pinch to Zoom, as well as the traditional buttons that you are used to on the GNS430. It also pushes and pulls flight plans from Foreflight, FlightPlanGo, and FlyQ via Wifi.


upload_2016-8-18_8-47-14.jpeg


What I would be looking for is a set amount of dry rental hours at a negotiated Tach rental price. This way, you aren't financing the install with my flying time. I will pay for fuel every time I go up, and I will also pay the difference in insurance costs to be added to your insurance plan.


Requirements:

  • Single owner airplane
  • Would prefer it to be hangered - but must have an engine heater for the winter at a minimum
  • Needs to be within a one hour drive of Chicago - As that is where I live (KPWK,KDPA,KLOT,etc)
  • I would prefer a 182, but if you are interested and have a different type of aircraft - Personal Message me
  • Paint & Interior should be in good condition as I use it for work travel sometimes.
  • A 2 axis auto pilot would be a plus

About me

I currently have my Private, and am about halfway through my instrument rating. About 175 hours total time.


Rates


These are the numbers that I would use for calculating the dry rate we would use.

  • Oil change every 40 hours = $75 oil+filter + $22 oil analysis = $2.40/hour
  • Engine overhaul budget every 1500 hours: $24,000 engine + $2400 R&R = $17.60/hour
  • Prop overhaul budget every 1500 hours: $2500 prop + $2000 governor = $3/hour
  • Total = $23 / hour
Safety net : $23 x 1.5 = $34.5 - Dry Tach Rate


So what I would be looking for is this:


I will trade you my IFD440 for your 430W and $6,000 in dry flying time. Your 430W must be in perfect working condition. So virtually, I am giving you $6,000 for your 430W and asking for $6,000 in flying time for the difference. I am using $12,000 as my sell price. As I mentioned before, the unit would cost you at least $13,000 if you bought it from a local avionics shop. I welcome you to call any of avionics shops in the area and get a quote.


$6,000 in dry Tach rental at $35.00 per hour would break out to 171.42 dry hours. Let's just use 170 as a bench mark.


How does this benefit you?

  • You don't have to finance the upgrade yourself
  • Your 430W is only going to depreciate - especially once Garmin stops servicing them
  • You get 2016 technology that is way easier to use and will pair with your iPad.
  • You keep 100% percent ownership of your plane
  • It will roughly increase the value of your plane by $3,000-$4,000 - and you didn't have to spend a dollar (other than the engine reserves of 170 hours) The Rule of thumb with Avionics is that you will only see about 50-60% return on equipment from your avionics upgrades. You will never see a dollar back from the actual labor portion. So if this would normally cost you about $7,000 to upgrade the equipment on your own - you can assume you will only see about $3,500 in return on the value of the plane.

Personal Message me if you are interested.


Paul
 
wtf-did-i-just-read.jpg
 
Do you take PayPal? Or will you send me a cashier check for 10x the amount and ask me to send you a real check for the difference?
I could do that, hang on, I just need to call my cousin, he's the Price of Nigeria.
 
rrrrr said:
On what planet can I fly a 182 for $35/hr dry?
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Probably not too many as most guys rent it wet. I could easily find a 182 renting for $116 wet. Which is pretty much in line with what I suggested. Believe it or not, there are people out there that would be interested in this as they don't want to fork over the money for an avionics upgrade themselves.

upload_2016-8-18_11-6-41.png
 
MAKG1 said:
CAP did the same analysis and came up with $45/Hobbs hour dry on a fixed gear 182.
Click to expand...

That is good information. Do you happen to have that article? Also, as I mentioned above, I don't own my own aircraft. I pulled all my information about operating costs from http://pilotbrian.blogspot.com/2008/09/cessna-182-operating-expenses.html. He did a detailed breakdown of hourly operating costs for his 182. The blog was from 2008, but fuel prices were also higher back then. I understand other costs have gone up since then so what I did was took all of his hourly cost listed and multiplied them by 1.5. I say this, just to show you that I wasn't pulling random numbers out of my head.

Hourly Costs as from Brians Forum:

  • ~13 Gph at maybe $5.50 = $71.50/hour
  • Oil change every 40 hours = $75 oil+filter + $22 oil analysis + do labor myself = $2.43/hour
  • Engine overhaul budget every 1500 hours: $24,000 engine + $2400 R&R = $17.60/hour
  • Prop overhaul budget every 1500 hours: $2500 prop + $2000 governor = $3/hour
  • Total = $94.53 / hour

As will every deal - The numbers I listed are a starting point for negotiation.
 
go4Paul said:
That is good information. Do you happen to have that article? Also, as I mentioned above, I don't own my own aircraft. I pulled all my information about operating costs from http://pilotbrian.blogspot.com/2008/09/cessna-182-operating-expenses.html. He did a detailed breakdown of hourly operating costs for his 182. The blog was from 2008, but fuel prices were also higher back then. I understand other costs have gone up since then so what I did was took all of his hourly cost listed and multiplied them by 1.5. I say this, just to show you that I wasn't pulling random numbers out of my head.

Hourly Costs as from Brians Forum:

  • ~13 Gph at maybe $5.50 = $71.50/hour
  • Oil change every 40 hours = $75 oil+filter + $22 oil analysis + do labor myself = $2.43/hour
  • Engine overhaul budget every 1500 hours: $24,000 engine + $2400 R&R = $17.60/hour
  • Prop overhaul budget every 1500 hours: $2500 prop + $2000 governor = $3/hour
  • Total = $94.53 / hour

As will every deal - The numbers I listed are a starting point for negotiation.
Click to expand...

CAPR 173-3 details maintenance reimbursement. See attachment 1. https://www.capmembers.com/media/cms/R173_003_BE7CCE2DDCDBB.pdf

The $45 figure excludes the engine repair and overhaul fund, which is an additional $30/hour. It's just what they actually spend on airframe repair and maintenance like breakage and tires, nationwide. Given the size of CAP's fleet (the largest SE Cessna fleet in the world) and the lack of primary flight training in the 182s (it's not allowed for adults, and not practical for cadets), that number should be taken rather seriously. CAP does not attempt to turn a profit on their aircraft.

Note that it also excludes non-aircraft costs, such as hangar fees. CAP generally negotiates cheap or free space in support of its emergency services mission.

So, I think a reasonable figure for you to start with is twice what you proposed.
 
:rofl::rofl::rofl: I'm not going to ask the obvious question...:goofy: The clock is ticking and will stops when someone does...:popcorn:
 
I think folks would much rather just give you their 430W and 6k vs letting a low time VFR pilot fly their 182 for $35hr, especially if you're looking at a single owner plane, letting a stranger PIC for $35hr deduction off a used IFD, doesn't take much mishandling to make that 35 bucks turn into a really bad deal for the owner.

The IFD isn't really that much of an upgrade for someone who already has a WAAS GNS, especially for pilots who fly and work in planes with GNS boxes. Maybe if you did the same deal for a non WAAS GNS, so someone got a a WAAS upgrade plus the wifi/Bluetooth add ons.

I wish you good luck, I'd think your best bet would be to talk to flying clubs.
 
So I will ask the obvious question... why all the hoops instead of just selling the dang box and renting, or better yet leasing, a plane for you needs?
 
Is the IFD hot? I would be the last person in the world to criticize a bottom-feeder looking for a good deal, but describing a "dream plane" and proposing what you think is an equitable rental rate is cavalier at best. Build-up your experience and ratings and put out feelers for "hangar-queen" situations; owned airplanes that are not being flown enough (which is among the worst things for an airplane), but the owner can't/won't get rid of it -- there are people in Cook/Will/DuPage counties that would benefit from an arrangement with you, but you need to be flexible and if the whole deal rests on the IFD, you might be hosed. Just my two cents. Good luck and fly safely.
 
Bobanna said:
Is the IFD hot? I would be the last person in the world to criticize a bottom-feeder looking for a good deal, but describing a "dream plane" and proposing what you think is an equitable rental rate is cavalier at best. Build-up your experience and ratings and put out feelers for "hangar-queen" situations; owned airplanes that are not being flown enough (which is among the worst things for an airplane), but the owner can't/won't get rid of it -- there are people in Cook/Will/DuPage counties that would benefit from an arrangement with you, but you need to be flexible and if the whole deal rests on the IFD, you might be hosed. Just my two cents. Good luck and fly safely.
Click to expand...

Depending on where and how the plane is kept, sitting planes falling apart is a bit of a old wives tail.
 
Your point is appreciated, Jim. Of course there are storage environments that allow, with proper husbandry, an airplane to be stored without deterioration. My point was that I've seen airplanes sitting in unheated t-hangars go downhill over time. I was suggesting that the OP identify "under-used" airplanes and offer healthy exercise in a mutually beneficial arrangement. Thanks for your remarks.
 
go4Paul said:
That is good information. Do you happen to have that article? Also, as I mentioned above, I don't own my own aircraft. I pulled all my information about operating costs from http://pilotbrian.blogspot.com/2008/09/cessna-182-operating-expenses.html. He did a detailed breakdown of hourly operating costs for his 182. The blog was from 2008, but fuel prices were also higher back then. I understand other costs have gone up since then so what I did was took all of his hourly cost listed and multiplied them by 1.5. I say this, just to show you that I wasn't pulling random numbers out of my head.

Hourly Costs as from Brians Forum:

  • ~13 Gph at maybe $5.50 = $71.50/hour
  • Oil change every 40 hours = $75 oil+filter + $22 oil analysis + do labor myself = $2.43/hour
  • Engine overhaul budget every 1500 hours: $24,000 engine + $2400 R&R = $17.60/hour
  • Prop overhaul budget every 1500 hours: $2500 prop + $2000 governor = $3/hour
  • Total = $94.53 / hour

As will every deal - The numbers I listed are a starting point for negotiation.
Click to expand...
You are correct, there are no additional costs. Tires don't wear, labor is free, interiors maintain themselves, the aircraft never needs washed, the avidyne doesn't have database updates, etc. Yup, engine and prop is it.
 
Bobanna said:
Your point is appreciated, Jim. Of course there are storage environments that allow, with proper husbandry, an airplane to be stored without deterioration. My point was that I've seen airplanes sitting in unheated t-hangars go downhill over time. I was suggesting that the OP identify "under-used" airplanes and offer healthy exercise in a mutually beneficial arrangement. Thanks for your remarks.
Click to expand...

Mine is in a unheated T, never had a issue.

Think underuse is bad, try a high performance plane in the hands of someone with little experience and who is ham fisted, I'll take sitting in a unheated T any day of the week over that.
 
"Think underuse is bad, try a high performance plane in the hands of someone with little experience and who is ham fisted, I'll take sitting in a unheated T any day of the week over that."

Well sure...no contention here. Your t-hangared bird probably gets regular use, and I am glad you have no issues. But, I'm sure there are nearby t-hangars where unflown birds slowly decompose. I suggested the OP go get as much experience and ratings (training) on his own, and then go seek-out an under-used bird to see if it could work for him. Wasn' t until I had comm-multi-instrument and 500 hrs before I located owners in need of someone to keep their Bonanzas (F33A, A36) occupied (100 wet and 70 dry, btw). I assure you that there are not many owners or insurers willing to consider the OP seriously, let alone his arm's-length proposal for a rental rate. Blessings
 
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