Toyota recall and Car Dealers

[gismo]

Four of my friends died last month, the day after Christmas, when their Toyota's Avalon accelerated itself into a T-intersection, hit trees on the other side, and ricocheted inverted into a pond. Guess where the police found the floormats? In the trunk. He was just that kind of uber-cautious man.

I'm with Matthew. Software or sensor issue, as yet undetected, is what I think will be found to be root cause. Decrement hex register 00 by one, hello FF.

Regardless, this fear-mongering-marketer needs his emails brought to upper management's attention. Entirely inappropriate and unprofessional, and I'm certain it would not be condoned by Ford, with whom I've had nothing but pleasant purchase and ownership experiences.

Numerous studies of "unintended acceleration" incidents have shown that the most common cause is the driver pushing on the gas thinking he's on the brakes. If you've ever done this you probably know that the "normal" reaction is to push harder and the thought that you have the wrong pedal comes way too late to prevent at least some unintended motion. I'm not saying that's the case with Matthew's friends but it's definitely a possibility that cannot be ignored, especially given that with foot on the brake, an uncommanded surge in engine power will also evoke a "push the pedal harder" response that should at least severely limit the forward motion and speed.

 

[Matthew]

Numerous studies of "unintended acceleration" incidents have shown that the most common cause is the driver pushing on the gas thinking he's on the brakes. If you've ever done this you probably know that the "normal" reaction is to push harder and the thought that you have the wrong pedal comes way too late to prevent at least some unintended motion. I'm not saying that's the case with Matthew's friends but it's definitely a possibility that cannot be ignored, especially given that with foot on the brake, an uncommanded surge in engine power will also evoke a "push the pedal harder" response that should at least severely limit the forward motion and speed.

Actually, it was Troy's friends.

And you make a point that I'm trying to make - it just seems too easy to blame the floor mats or a sticking gas pedal on this one. Maybe that's all it is, but I wouldn't jump to that conclusion just yet. Obviously, I don't know what Toyota knows.

 

[Henning]

Didn't BMW have an issue about 20 yrs ago with accelerator problems? I think they redesigned the brake/accelerator pedals to make it harder to get the two mistaken.

That was the Audi 5000.

 

[RMCN172RG]

IIRC the car involved had a "pushbutton ignition switch" that by design prevented the engine from being turned off if the car was moving.

Now that's a serious design flaw.

Does it prevet you from shifting into Nuetral as well?

 

[TMetzinger]

In every car I've driven, there's either a clutch or neutral available to disconnect the engine from the transmission. And I'm not aware of any auto that has an interlock that would keep you from easily putting it in neutral when you're in drive or reverse.

So the only loss of control accidents in automatics I can sympathise with are the ones where the acceleration causes a loss of control in less than 3 seconds by breaking traction somehow (curves/corners).

 

[dmccormack]

That was the Audi 5000.

Maybe

http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/in-defense-of-the-audi-5000/

 

[weilke]

Does it prevet you from shifting into Nuetral as well?

I have a car that doesn't have an actual linkage between the transmission lever and the transmission. They could have used push-buttons if they wanted to. Still have a keyed lock, however that is not electrically linked to the fuel-cutoff valve but goes through the engine management system. So yes, those highly 'bus dependent' cars could potentially get away from you without recourse except for a stomp on the brake and a trip into the guardrail.

 

[Matthew]

That was the Audi 5000.

Yeah, thanks, that's the one I was thinking about.

 

[TMetzinger]

I have a car that doesn't have an actual linkage between the transmission lever and the transmission. They could have used push-buttons if they wanted to. Still have a keyed lock, however that is not electrically linked to the fuel-cutoff valve but goes through the engine management system. So yes, those highly 'bus dependent' cars could potentially get away from you without recourse except for a stomp on the brake and a trip into the guardrail.

Huh. What kind of car? We may have to start certifying car code the way they do transport category airplane code.

I think there needs to be at least one simple electrical or mechanical system to either kill the engine or put the drivetrain in neutral for cars. That should be a safety requirement.

 

[river_rat]

IIRC the car involved had a "pushbutton ignition switch" that by design prevented the engine from being turned off if the car was moving. ....

"Toyota said if its vehicle is equipped with an "engine start/stop" button, you need to push the button firmly and steadily for at least three seconds to turn off the engine. Do not tap the start/stop button."

http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-toyota-q-and-a28-2010jan28,0,7584950.story

 

[gismo]

Maybe

http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/in-defense-of-the-audi-5000/

It was the Audi 5000 that 60 minutes made a big deal of unintended acceleration on. The only "flaw" in the Audi was the placement of the brake pedal in close proximity to and at the same approximate height of the gas pedal which was an intentional design feature to allow for "heel and toe" operation (e.g. rev matching between shifts).

 

[woodstock]

Internet Sales Manager

You need go no further.

 

[roebuck85]

Yet another reason to own a vehicle with a manual transmission...

 

[ausrere]

Hey, there you go..

http://www.safetyforum.com/fordcruisecontrol/

Forward that one link to the dealer.

That and to stories about how long it took Ford to fix the exploding gas tanks in the Crown Vic. Several police widows might argue that it wasn't fast enough.

 

[weilke]

That and to stories about how long it took Ford to fix the exploding gas tanks in the Crown Vic. Several police widows might argue that it wasn't fast enough.

That exploding gas tanks gig in the Crown Vic sounded more of a trial-lawyer fabrication to me. Some of these Crown Vics that burned up got hit by cars going 70mph. Given the size of the fleet in police service, the number of fires was rather modest.

 

[infotango]

It was the Audi 5000 that 60 minutes made a big deal of unintended acceleration on. The only "flaw" in the Audi was the placement of the brake pedal in close proximity to and at the same approximate height of the gas pedal which was an intentional design feature to allow for "heel and toe" operation (e.g. rev matching between shifts).

I bent the throttle on my Miata closer to the brake to facilitate heel to toe driving.

Ah the advantages of owning only stick shift cars!

 

[sba55]

IIRC the car involved had a "pushbutton ignition switch" that by design prevented the engine from being turned off if the car was moving.

No, that's not correct. If the car is moving, you have to push and hold that button for a few seconds to turn off the engine. The engine WILL stop if you do that.

I'm not a Toyota owner and even I know this....he should have known.

 

[sba55]

2. There has not been a production car built in decades which cannot overcome all available power and stop by the application of full brakes. Not one.

Right, but don't you think there might be more to this story in this particular case?

The guy was a cop. He apparently didn't know anything about his car, but I'm sure he was pushing the brake as hard as he could. Maybe he didn't have enough space to come to a stop, considering the increased brake distance with full throttle?

 

[jesse]

Right, but don't you think there might be more to this story in this particular case?

The guy was a cop. He apparently didn't know anything about his car, but I'm sure he was pushing the brake as hard as he could. Maybe he didn't have enough space to come to a stop, considering the increased brake distance with full throttle?

It wasn't his car. It was a loaner from the dealer, his was in for service. If you're not familiar with the push button start and the car is suddenly accelerating, you push it, nothing happens. I would personally hold it for awhile but I'm from the computer generation where he really was not.
http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/money_co/2009/12/toyota-lexus-sudden-acceleration.html

 

[SCCutler]

Right, but don't you think there might be more to this story in this particular case?

The guy was a cop. He apparently didn't know anything about his car, but I'm sure he was pushing the brake as hard as he could. Maybe he didn't have enough space to come to a stop, considering the increased brake distance with full throttle?

Eh... not sure of anything. I wasn't there.

My wife is, and always has been, a pretty safe driver. She was moving my Honda Civic (piece of crap, by the way, always was, but I digress), when she slammed the back of it into the front bumper of her Buick, engine screaming; was sitting there screaming, and I ran over and reached in the window, turned the key off.

She said," I was pushing the brake as hard as I could, it just took off!" We looked down at her foot, planted all the way down, on the gas pedal.

It happens. Not even the Audi Victims' Network and 60 Minutes' team of ultra-maroons could prove otherwise.

 

[N801BH]

Eh... not sure of anything. I wasn't there.

My wife is, and always has been, a pretty safe driver. She was moving my Honda Civic (piece of crap, by the way, always was, but I digress), when she slammed the back of it into the front bumper of her Buick, engine screaming; was sitting there screaming, and I ran over and reached in the window, turned the key off.

She said," I was pushing the brake as hard as I could, it just took off!" We looked down at her foot, planted all the way down, on the gas pedal.

It happens. Not even the Audi Victims' Network and 60 Minutes' team of ultra-maroons could prove otherwise.

I admire you for admitting that. It takes a good human to confess to 'less then normal' stuff and for that you get a pat on the back.

 

[gismo]

No, that's not correct. If the car is moving, you have to push and hold that button for a few seconds to turn off the engine. The engine WILL stop if you do that.

I'm not a Toyota owner and even I know this....he should have known.

You're right, that's what I meant (I just left off the 3 second part).

 

[gismo]

She said," I was pushing the brake as hard as I could, it just took off!" We looked down at her foot, planted all the way down, on the gas pedal.

Like I said earlier, the normal reaction to a car starting to accelerate when you thing you're pushing the brake pedal is to push harder. I'll bet if you could rig a proper test, this would be true for most if not all drivers.

 

[silver-eagle]

Rental or not, the driver of a car needs to be familiar with its operation. One rental agency wouldn't let me start the car until the agent gave me a thorough walk around and a review of ALL the controls, including where the owners manual was. Another agency didn't even leave the desk, handed me the keys and sent me along my way.
As a pilot, you wouldn't just hop in, light'er up, and taxi out. Why should a driver do that?
I heard the latest recall may involve more than 8 million cars. Wild eyed speculation and fear mongering is counter productive. What's needed is a system by system review of all the parts involved. If it is the car (and WHY DO WE HAVE TRANSMISSION LOCKS ON THE SHIFTERS NOW???), it should be easy enough to prove. Less so if it is the driver.

 

[dmccormack]

Rental or not, the driver of a car needs to be familiar with its operation. One rental agency wouldn't let me start the car until the agent gave me a thorough walk around and a review of ALL the controls, including where the owners manual was. Another agency didn't even leave the desk, handed me the keys and sent me along my way.
As a pilot, you wouldn't just hop in, light'er up, and taxi out. Why should a driver do that?.

Naaahh...

I haven't travelled as much lately, but for a few years I was in 6 to 10 different rental cars each month.

SOP is start it up, adjust seat and mirrors, check lights, roll, check brakes, and go.

If a rental car suit tried to give me a pre-drive brief I'd roll my eyes and tell them to hurry up.

The difference between cars and airplanes is the lack of standardization in airplane layout and the sheer simplicity of car operation.

 

[Everskyward]

Rental or not, the driver of a car needs to be familiar with its operation. One rental agency wouldn't let me start the car until the agent gave me a thorough walk around and a review of ALL the controls, including where the owners manual was. Another agency didn't even leave the desk, handed me the keys and sent me along my way.
As a pilot, you wouldn't just hop in, light'er up, and taxi out. Why should a driver do that?

I rent a lot of cars and I can't recall that I've ever had anyone show me the controls. Most of the time it's, "Here are the keys, it's out there somewhere..." I also have to say that I've never consulted the owner's manual either.

 

[RMCN172RG]

I rent a lot of cars and I can't recall that I've ever had anyone show me the controls. Most of the time it's, "Here are the keys, it's out there somewhere..." I also have to say that I've never consulted the owner's manual either.

Only time I had assistance was the first time I rented a highbred. Any other time if I can't figure anything out I ask before I leave the lot.

 

[Matthew]

SOP is start it up, adjust seat and mirrors, check lights, roll, check brakes, and go.

I add two more items to the pre-flight: adjust radio, figure out where wiper controls are.

 

[dmccormack]

I add two more items to the pre-flight: adjust radio, figure out where wiper controls are.

I usually locate the wipers when I signal a turn.

 

[Everskyward]

I usually locate the wipers when I signal a turn.

Or when trying to turn on the lights...

 

[Ghery]

I broke the throttle return spring on our 1963 Rambler when I was in high school. WOT. Yeah, I know, a Rambler. But it gets your attention in a 35 mph zone. Took a second, at most, to figure out what was happening and my immediate reaction was - turn off the ignition. Not exactly rocket science.

Just read an on-line article about the Toyota throttle problem. http://www.designnews.com/article/446480-Toyota_s_Problem_Was_Unforeseeable.php?nid=4871&rid=8011320 Seems the cars do not have a physical connection between the pedal and the throttle. "Throttle by wire" was the term. Toyota is close to having a fix. Whatever happened to KISS? These things are getting too complex when they have a simple task - move me down the road at a speed I select.

Rag on the Pinto all you want. My father-in-law had one and it ran and ran and ran. Given his approach to automobile maintenance (feed it gas and go) I found that an amazing testament to the car. Yeah, they had a problem with the gas tank when they got rear ended, but otherwise it was a surprisingly well built car. Or, maybe he got lucky and got the one good one they built that week. Who knows?

At the end of the day, this is costing Toyota big time. $$$ and image. Guess I'll just keep driving my Jeeps.

 

[TangoWhiskey]

Or when trying to turn on the lights...

I inadvertently flash my brights at people while I drive my wife's vehicle, when trying to clean the windshield (pulling the lever towards me does something different in her car than mine).

 

[Ddayle]

Maybe we should go ahead and get rid of our deathtrap and pick up a nice low-mileage Pinto instead.

.

Yea another fear mongered recall. the FACTS were that the Pinto was SAFER than the average car in it's class in rear engine fire/collisuions. The Pinto was at less than 3 per 1000, the Vega over per 1000 the Accord nearly 10 per 1000.(3 per 1000 was @ average) The pinto was not unsafe, the claim was that it could have been even safer. The recall merely installed a longer filler neck & a plastic shield on the tank. I was a pinto owner then ( well mine had 400 HP v-8) and i carried the published safety figures around for yrs to quiet this bogus "Pinto firetrap" claim. Dave

 

[Henning]

Over the years, I have had two runaway cars. Both in the days of an actual cable connecting the pedal and the throttle. Cable gets frayed, frayed strands block cable from moving back. Luckily, they both got stuck about 1/2 open and where weak enough engines that I could still shift and adjust my speed using the brakes to nurse them home. And no, I didn't start calling all my friends and 911 to report the problem.

I had just rigged the throttle linkage on a 63 Savoy with a 413 Max Stage III wedge which uses a cross ram dual quad manifold. I took it out for a test run and when I floored it the linkage went over center and the throttle wouldn't come up. That was an interesting moment before I shut the key off.

 

[Henning]

Yea another fear mongered recall. the FACTS were that the Pinto was SAFER than the average car in it's class in rear engine fire/collisuions. The Pinto was at less than 3 per 1000, the Vega over per 1000 the Accord nearly 10 per 1000.(3 per 1000 was @ average) The pinto was not unsafe, the claim was that it could have been even safer. The recall merely installed a longer filler neck & a plastic shield on the tank. I was a pinto owner then ( well mine had 400 HP v-8) and i carried the published safety figures around for yrs to quiet this bogus "Pinto firetrap" claim. Dave

Besides, it wasn't the Pinto driver that got burned, it was the person that rear ended them that ended up in the flaming puddle of fuel.

 

[RMCN172RG]

I've never had the runaway throttle but have experienced an engine mount letting go while going up a hill BIG THUMP, lots of steam, probably a few explitives, memory is vague in that area and a very quick shutdown.

Blowing a hole in a cylinder while crusing at 100 MPH, the actual event was pretty benign. But, the crankcase explosion when we started it the next morning to research the problem was exciting and a little dangerous.

The most recet event was having a corroded brake line come apart while cruising on a six lane undivided highway. I think when I told my wife we don't have any brakes she was more concerned than I was. The drive home and trip to the shop the next mornign were uneventful.

 

[dmccormack]

Update:

I emailed Ford's marketing department.

Had a reply from National Marketing Director, then Regional Director (with follow up phone call), and then Dealership owner, each apologizing profusely.

Apparently the Internet marketing Manager is doing another job for the dealership.

I told them all that was not my intent -- but they claimed I wasn't the only one to "be offended."

I corrected them -- I wasn't "offended" (a snivelling, pointless, pseudo-pious, whimpy term), I was annoyed and later really annoyed that I continued to receive emails after I'd asked to be removed from the distribution list.

I actually held back on emailing Ford management until I found yet another email reply in my inbox Monday morning.

 

[Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe]

She said," I was pushing the brake as hard as I could, it just took off!" We looked down at her foot, planted all the way down, on the gas pedal.

It happens. Not even the Audi Victims' Network and 60 Minutes' team of ultra-maroons could prove otherwise.

I have a car that, every once in a while, tries to get away when in reverse.

No, I do not have my foot on the wrong pedal.

If I did, it wouldn't stop when I press harder.

This particular vehicle (Mercury Villager which is a re-badged Nissan Quest) only has a throttle bypass valve for idle speed so it isn't a "wide open throttle" type event. But it's way more than necessary to really upset the wife when it happens.

One time, I sat and played with it - Park, engine speed OK. reverse, engine speed up quite a bit, neutral, OK, drive OK, back to reverse, speed up.... Never moved my foot. After a minute or so, it went away as it always does. Hasn't happened in quite a while so whatever was causing it no longer does.

(Yes, I took it to a dealer - guess what the response was. And I replaced the PRNDL sensor myself - no difference)

It's not always the drivers fault.

 

[AdamZ]

Why respond to Ford? It won't do any good. Send the emails to your local T.V. consumer reporter they will love the cat fight then you can just sit back and watch The Toyta Rep respond to the Ford email and list all the things that Ford has done wrong.

 

[dmccormack]

Why respond to Ford? It won't do any good. Send the emails to your local T.V. consumer reporter they will love the cat fight then you can just sit back and watch The Toyta Rep respond to the Ford email and list all the things that Ford has done wrong.

Actually, it worked very well. I was contacted by marketing managers form North America level on down, expressing apology, etc, etc.