Touch & Gos - do you visually confirm flaps up?

455 Bravo Uniform

455 Bravo Uniform

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For those that do touch and Gos and have electric flaps, do you look out the window to confirm that the flaps are actually retracting?

I do confirm preflight on the ground as a I retract them, and double check when I do my "controls free and correct".

But in the midst of flaps-up/carb heat off/full throttle of a T&G, I can't even hear the flaps retracting, nor have I been taught to visually confirm (I'd rather not take my eyes off the runway centerline)...another thread got me thinking, what if the flaps didn't retract as I was expecting after throwing the flap switch to zero?

I'm still in training, post solo, C-152.

Manual flaps, no T&G are all safer bets, but really again just wanting to know if others look to confirm flaps are retracting, not whether T&Gs are risky or manual flaps better.

Sorry about the bold type, just a preventative measure trying to keep some of you guys in-line from taking my thread "off center line" like a bad gust of wind on a calm day, lol!
 
I don't. I fly the same plane enough I have the "feel" for it.
 
Fellow student pilot here, I don't look. Still in the dual phase of training. I'm pretty sure I try to listen for the electric motor, its pretty noisy in the 172. I think it would be tricky for a student pilot who is probably concentrating more on keeping it heading straight down the runway. I think as you get more control/experience a quick glance would be a non-issue and a good idea. This is probably one reason first solo's are not typically touch and go's. (there was a huge thread arguing this point)

I recall a POA post from a student who had a flap malfunction happen to him on his first solo. The flaps would not retract. Luckily he had been told to do full STOP and taxi backs and noticed this before the next takeoff. (shout out to CPO, wherever you are).
 
I take a quick peek to make sure BOTH are moving. If I can't see movement in a quick glance, its better to figure it out on the ground.....
 
Nope, one one plane you can't really tell very well, the other has mechanical flaps.
 
I used to believe the "feel" thing until mine stuck at 40 during a night touch and go and in my STOL equipped 182, I was off the ground and waaaay behind the power curve at about 30 knots.

(Reduced power and landed on remaining runway. I was light enough that I may have been able to fly it all the way round the pattern at 40 and full power, but that'd be stupid with over 5000' remaining doing 35-40 knots.)

I was taught to take a brief look and make sure they're moving in anything where you can see them. The instructor who taught me that chuckled when I told him what happened and said, "You know I taught you better than that."

You're not going to careen off into a ditch if you aren't turning to stare at them like a naked chick walking down Main Street.

Just look. All you need is a glance to see they're moving. Even if they stop after that, you know they aren't fully extended and you can continue the takeoff safely.

If all you can see in some aircraft is an indicator, at least make sure it's moving with a glance.

Until it was down and stopped I didn't know where they stuck at. I just knew the airplane shouldn't have come off the runway at 30 knots. So that's the "feel" thing folks are talking about, but if I had glanced and seen they weren't moving, the abort would have been a lot sooner.

On a short runway (not too short for touch and goes but too short for a takeoff and landing without going off the end) you have more options sooner if you know they aren't moving. And a lot less surprise when the airplane pops off the ground in ground effect going way too slow to climb out.
 
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I absolutely do. It's a takeoff and you should always visually confirm the flap position before a takeoff. You might feel like you have your hands full as a student but it really costs nothing to glance out the windows on your takeoff roll and confirm you're not trying to launch with full flaps (which can really suck if you've ever done it).

You gain nothing by not looking.
 
Nope,flaps required for take off.
 
C-172, I do glance at each-more to make sure I don't have asymmetric flaps than for retraction. I've got ~220 hours so I'm still wet behind the ears but not completely green. I'm also typically using a 6004 x 150 runway. If I was on a 2000x25 I might not...
 
I don't bother in my Cherokee since the flaps are manual, but I would definitely know the difference if they were down. I've got about 90 hours in that plane and almost 200 hours total time and I can definitely tell the difference between flaps up and down.

However, when I was a student doing T&G's I had a flaps down situation:

I was flying a LSA C162 and right after the landing I applied full power and was amazed to see the plane float up off the runway well before the usual rotation speed. I then noticed I had not retracted the flaps. I pitched down, let it accelerate (almost same technique as a soft field takeoff) and then took the flaps out a notch at a time, cleaned it all up by around 200 ft AGL.

Was a bit embarrassing, but I will never forget that "feeling".
 
I've always thought that intentional T&G's were a foolish and unnecessary risk. A friend of mine didn't agree, until he died when he got split flaps on his comanche. Maybe he agrees now, then again maybe not, he was pretty stubborn. But being a coward, if i was going to do such a thing I'd sure as heck take a glance to make sure both flaps were moving.
 
JHW said:
I've always thought that intentional T&G's were a foolish and unnecessary risk. A friend of mine didn't agree, until he died when he got split flaps on his comanche. Maybe he agrees now, then again maybe not, he was pretty stubborn. But being a coward, if i was going to do such a thing I'd sure as heck take a glance to make sure both flaps were moving.
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I think it is a bit extreme to label all intentional T&Gs as foolish.

That said, I personally limit my T&Gs to my Waco (no flaps) and Cessna 170 (it's a '48 - short field T/O calls for full flaps so I leave them alone).

I don't do T&Gs in twins and haven't done a touch and go in a complex airplane in years.
 
Since I almost bent metal taking off with full flaps once, I am training myself to look. However, my mistake was a result of failure to follow the checklist, not inoperative flaps. Huge lesson learned.

EDIT: I don't do touch and goes anymore anyway.
 
JHW said:
I've always thought that intentional T&G's were a foolish and unnecessary risk. A friend of mine didn't agree, until he died when he got split flaps on his comanche. Maybe he agrees now, then again maybe not, he was pretty stubborn. But being a coward, if i was going to do such a thing I'd sure as heck take a glance to make sure both flaps were moving.
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Really?! Have you soloed many students?

If you view a simple T&G as that much of a risk, you must live one super safe lifestyle.

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denverpilot said:
I used to believe the "feel" thing until mine stuck at 40 during a night touch and go and in my STOL equipped 182, I was off the ground and waaaay behind the power curve at about 30 knots...
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I had pretty much the same experience in a Cessna 207. Yeah, I confirm the flaps. However, I don't do touch and goes much anymore.
 
JHW said:
I've always thought that intentional T&G's were a foolish and unnecessary risk. A friend of mine didn't agree, until he died when he got split flaps on his comanche. Maybe he agrees now, then again maybe not, he was pretty stubborn. But being a coward, if i was going to do such a thing I'd sure as heck take a glance to make sure both flaps were moving.
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I pretty much agree with this. I also had a split-flap in a Cessna 340 and that's not something I'd ever care to repeat. It's one of the reasons I've come to believe most T&Gs were an unnecessary and foolish risk. I do see a certain value in simple aircraft like J-3s, Colts, Aeronca Champs, Luscombes and aircraft like that that require no configuration changes. However, as you work your way up the complexity ladder and/or operate off of shorter runways then you've got other factors to consider. Throw in a transitioning or a task saturated student pilot and it's seldom the best possible option.

Personally, I seldom, if ever, do them any more in complex singles or twins, I much prefer stop and goes if I've got the runway and full stop and taxi backs if I don't. I usually limit touch and goes to simple airplanes but we have done them in jets, but you've got to have extremely long runways - you eat up a lot of runway while you're reconfiguring for takeoff. There's little to be gained - it just doesn't make a lot sense. That being said, I've spent a lot of time in Lincoln NE waiting for maintenance and had the chance to watch the military doing touch and goes in their 747s. I would have loved to have been able to see the choreography going on in those cockpits.

I'm sure you've all seen this YouTube video before. You've got ask yourself how cost effective were T&Gs in this case?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aA_qHBzH2nw
 
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Remembering waaaay back to my lessons for the private in a 172 (mumber years ago), yes. My instructor always had me call out visually confirming the flaps up.
 
James331 said:
Really?! Have you soloed many students?

If you view a simple T&G as that much of a risk, you must live one super safe lifestyle.
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I've never done a T&G other than as part of a rejected landing scenario, never for "landing practice". Maybe that's why it took me more than 300 hours to solo. I guess I'm just not the pilot that you are.
 
I like to peek for a confirmation that the flaps are retracting. Now... I am not going to sit there and watch them, but making sure they are moving is enough confirmation for me.
 
Old Geek said:
No. Besides, it would take off just fine with the flaps in any position.
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Sure, at sea level, you have a 5000 foot runway, not overloaded. Most GA planes would take off fine.

A C150 at gross, with the 40 degree fowler flaps is going to struggle. Add in a short runway and/or DA you might just fly right into the trees. I doubt it would even take off at all at a very high DA
 
OkieAviator said:
I don't. I fly the same plane enough I have the "feel" for it.
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Yes. That.

Although on preflight I carefully watch them go down and on taxi back up. Other than than on downwind and maybe base I find it hazardous to look at your flaps while you really need to be looking else-where.......
 
You can't see the flaps in your peripheral vision?
 
If you don't slow down or feel a distinct change of attitude, lift, and motion in your ass you might want to take a look. ;)
 
I think the question illustrates that stop and goes are better for training the touch and goes. To ask a student to reconfigure flaps and trim on the move on a runway is not a worthwhile exercise. Having them stop, reconfigure, and do a normal takeoff from a standing start makes better sense.
 
Stewartb said:
I think the question illustrates that stop and goes are better for training the touch and goes. To ask a student to reconfigure flaps and trim on the move on a runway is not a worthwhile exercise. Having them stop, reconfigure, and do a normal takeoff from a standing start makes better sense.
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I never understood messing with trim to the extreme on final. I know some people trim max nose up, but all it takes is a little extra back pressure and muscle control, adding trim means more cleanup.

If you keep the landing as clean as possible, there's nothing to clean up. I was taught landings clean, 1 notch, 2 notches and 3 notches of flaps as a student. To this day I don't see the point in landing with more than a notch or two of flaps at the most. Full flaps is entirely unnecessary unless you're on a really short field.

My instructors not only had me practice T&G's, but they had me master a soft field landing to a soft field takeoff T&G keeping the nose wheel off the runway the whole time you are transitioning. Teaches GREAT control of the aircraft and rudder management.

I understand T&G's should probably NOT be done in multi's or complex planes as a regular method as there are a lot of things to clean up, but on a C172/152 or PA28 adding more crap to your landing process just makes it harder to clean up later on. Keep it clean.
 
Getting back to the OP's question posed as a student pilot...

If your workload is such that you are unable to confirm the flaps are doing what you want (by sight, sound, feel, etc.), then I would suggest that you are not in a good position to execute a touch & go and should perhaps stop to reconfigure the plane before your next takeoff.
 
Caramon13 said:
I understand T&G's should probably NOT be done in multi's or complex planes as a regular method as there are a lot of things to clean up, but on a C172/152 or PA28 adding more crap to your landing process just makes it harder to clean up later on. Keep it clean.
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note: with my cherokee 140 being a bit nose heavy (and, no, it wasn't because of me), adding a smidge of trim was useful and not hard to take out (don't forget that almost nothing happens quickly in a cherokee 140 ;) ). bottomline: know your airplane.
 
Fearless Tower said:
How does the sound of the flap motor confirm that you do not have split flaps?
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Is it that common?

I know most larger planes have fails safes to prevent that, most manual flap planes it quite unlikely with the design.

Are we seeing so many split flap on short final / go around situations that it makes it that much of a issue and risk??
 
James331 said:
Is it that common?

I know most larger planes have fails safes to prevent that, most manual flap planes it quite unlikely with the design.

Are we seeing so many split flap on short final / go around situations that it makes it that much of a issue and risk??
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Does it matter in that context?

Point was that a few on this thread have expressed concerns about split flap issues (one pointed out that he actually knew someone who died as a result of a split flap on takeoff). Nick seemed to think the sound alone of the flap motor should be confirmation that the flaps have retracted.

I submit that is not the case. Just because the motor runs doesn't necessarily mean that the flaps are where you want them.
 
It's risk management. Touch and go's save time ($$) and allow more training in a given period of time. It does add a bit of risk in the rare but possible case of flap failure between setting final flaps and retracting them on the go.

You can mitigate some of that risk by looking at them and maybe rotating faster. To mitigate more you can do full stops and reconfigure. At the end of the day it's about how much risk is acceptable to you for a given payoff.

Let's face it...if we want to get rid of all risk we'd never step foot in the plane and we'd certainly not drive home from the airport.
 
James331 said:
Is it that common?

I know most larger planes have fails safes to prevent that, most manual flap planes it quite unlikely with the design.

Are we seeing so many split flap on short final / go around situations that it makes it that much of a issue and risk??
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no, it's not common but the consequences are severe. Lightning strikes are not common either but i still don't swing a golf club during a thunderstorm.
 
Its like an automatic motion embedded in my brain even if its a full stop taxi to the ramp.
Airplane lands, directional control maintained, airplane slowed, flaps go up. If I'm doing a touch and go I do a quick left and right glance to confirm they are moving up in the right direction.
 
Captain said:
Touch and go's save time ($$) and allow more training in a given period of time.
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it allows more repetitions. If counting landings is the goal, I'll give you that. Whether or not that represents quicker learning is debatable. I've never met a strident proponent of T&G's who has ever actually tried to teach without them. Meantime the students of CFI's who avoid them, seem to progress just fine.
 
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