Touch and Go's

Fly-Fla

Fly-Fla

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Fly-Fla
I was reading some other threads and there seems to be two distinct camps on whether touch and Go's are acceptable in training. I am currently a pre solo student pilot training at an airport with a 7000 and 8000 X 150 runways. Both of the instructors I have had have me doing touch and Go's. I've also done several runs down the runway at 10 feet or so which I found to be incredibly demanding but fantastic training. Tell me your reasons for or against T&G's.
 
As long as you do not get rushed, with that big of a runway you'll be okay as long as you make sure you have a solid reconfigure. In general though, I'm not for them.
 
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To me, T&G's are good practice... Others think they are dangerous.
 
Not a black-and-white decision...depends on the student's progress. In the first few hours of pattern work I do not like T&G because I want to use that taxi-back time to discuss the last landing. I do the taxiing because I want the student's mind to be concentrated on my words. As the student progresses from "learning to land" to "practicing landings," I will move toward more T&G's unless I see something that needs be discussed before the throttle goes forward.

Bob Gardner
 
Bounce and Gos save time. But as a geezer, I always felt rushed, so I prefer full stop particularly if I am flying something complex like a Cessna 150. In my taildragger I am happy with stop and gos because it is not as complicated (T&Gs don't count for tailwheel currency) and the stop gives you a couple seconds to switch (mental) gears.
 
N801BH said:
To me, T&G's are good practice... Others think they are dangerous.
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Stop and goes are good practice as they give a true gauge of your performance ability. That little bit is all it takes to make a big difference in avoiding stupid mistakes of taking things for granted.
 
Well, we aim for the middle ground with "yield and go". As in we land allow the plane to slow down but keep rolling re configure, make sure we are ready and then go...
Sort of a slow touch and go
 
Touch'n'goes save time, but encourage treating the landing as "over" when the wheels touch the ground. Particularly in less than ideal conditions, the landing roll-out is important to practice.

It's also a bad idea on a short runway, particularly with a Cessna where the flap retraction takes a while.

Lots of stuff happens in a very short period of time on a T&G, that just doesn't happen at any other time. IMO, it's best to think about the landing while landing, and not the takeoff. A mistake is much more likely under that circumstance.

Note that T&Gs are often prohibited by insurance and/or schools for complex aircraft. It's not a good idea to pull the gear while you're still on the ground.

Stop'n'goes are different, but you need a bit more runway, and it seems they are out of favor at towered airports. They do put you in a vulnerable position -- on the runway with landing traffic behind you -- for longer than you would otherwise be there.
 
I was trainen on touch and go's out of 2 4400' runways. When I was getting trained in my airplane I had an 8700' runway, but we didn't do touch and go's. My CFI said that was too much for a complex airplane. Towards the end of that training in my airplane we would do them. I personally won't do them with less than 4000' feet in my airplane because I don't want to accidentally bring up the gear instead of the flaps or something. In trainers though it's basically land, roll, flaps up, takeoff.. all you have to remember are the flaps an in a Piper they retract fast since they're manual.
 
Jeanie said:
Well, we aim for the middle ground with "yield and go". As in we land allow the plane to slow down but keep rolling re configure, make sure we are ready and then go...
Sort of a slow touch and go
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This is how I learned T&G...you're telling me I've been doing it wrong all along?
 
When I was a flight instructor, I used them only as a way to save the student money and get him more landings... I asked that he not do them on his own, but only when I was with him until he had at least 25-30 hours.. I'm cautious that way. There is a benefit to learning proper and un-rushed take off technique and if you're always doing touch and go's you'll miss that critical part of your formation as a pilot. Also, if the runway is long enough and time/atc permits it, slow down to a moderate taxi speed, reconfigure and do a quick pre-take off check before you "go"... but that's ONLY if you have enough real estate, and no other traffic in the pattern waiting to land.
 
My training was at rwys with normally around 4,000' or less to play with. My CFI said "No solo T&G. Just too much going on at once and doesn't reinforce the training I'm trying to do." But at an 8,000 rwy, I don't know why S&G wouldn't be OK - or even T&G since you have plenty of time to transition from landing to taxi to takeoff.
 
MAKG1 said:
Touch'n'goes save time, but encourage treating the landing as "over" when the wheels touch the ground. Particularly in less than ideal conditions, the landing roll-out is important to practice.
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This is a great point. I trained at an airport with long runways, the shortest is3,500 ft, and always did touch and go's during training to save time and maximize the amount of practice. However, when I got my PPL I was no longer allowed to do touch and go's anymore so I did not have much practice with the roll out portion and it really took me some time to learn to keep back pressure in and proper airleron control. Had I done more taxi backs, I probably would have gotten more knowledge on the technique.

It's a trade off though- touch and go's equals more practice landings per training hours so I get it.
 
I was never a fan of T/G's, and still resist doing them. No matter the pace, the student will feel rushed, simply because of the mechanics involved. Other maneuvers, like flying the length of the runway at 6" AGL, are much more effective in teaching landing sight picture and offer more options to fly, touch, roll, lift off, etc. Moving cockpits are horrible places to teach, and any attempts to convey meaningful information to the student are much better accomplished while stopped and hopefully unpuckered.

OTOH, I've found that many pilots want to be in the airplane rather than at a table, so I tell them "we have some stuff that we can do in the plane" and make sure the plane is parked in the shade. Then we sit in the cockpit for however long it takes (including pit stops) to do everything I wanted to accomplish.

When it's over, I just say "well, this took longer than I thought, but you made great progress" then we climb out of the plane, shut the doors and go home.
 
I've heard both, also. I've also heard people saying it's fine for fixed gear but didn't like doing them in retracts/complex.
 
It certainly speeds things up, i got in thirteen landings in a little more than an hour flight time this week. The way my instructors have taught it I land, straighten up and slow down a bit while the flaps come up. I verify flaps up, power up and start the next take-off. Since we have a long runway it gives me lots of time. I did not do T&G's at the small 2900' strip I started my instruction at. I do need to go back there to practice full stop landings though since it's half the width as well as being shorter. It definitely changes the perspective.
 
A T&G is a go-around, with the wheels on the ground, but at a slower pace, and slight change in sequence of events. Still need to maintain heading, still need to re trim, but you can raise the flaps before applying power, still need a pitch change.

I always brief for shorter runways, if we are not applying power by a certain point, we abort to a full stop.
 
I never had a problem with touch and goes either as a student or an instructor. In fact, I didn't even know they were controversial until about 10 years ago.
 
No question you'll get more landings, but a big question regarding the benefits. Would you have learned more with 8 landings with a good debrief and discussion after each?

Fly-Fla said:
It certainly speeds things up, i got in thirteen landings in a little more than an hour flight time this week. The way my instructors have taught it I land, straighten up and slow down a bit while the flaps come up. I verify flaps up, power up and start the next take-off. Since we have a long runway it gives me lots of time. I did not do T&G's at the small 2900' strip I started my instruction at. I do need to go back there to practice full stop landings though since it's half the width as well as being shorter. It definitely changes the perspective.
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wabower said:
No question you'll get more landings, but a big question regarding the benefits. Would you have learned more with 8 landings with a good debrief and discussion after each?
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Good question.... There appears to be ALOT of us old timers that survived all those T&G's while training and lived to fly another day..:yes:;)..

If you can't land a simple plane, clean it up and depart in about 5 seconds , you might want to consider that flying is not for you..:nonod:
 
When you're measuring the safety record, you don't stop with just the number of survivors.

N801BH said:
Good question.... There appears to be ALOT of us old timers that survived all those T&G's while training and lived to fly another day..:yes:;)..

If you can't land a simple plane, clean it up and depart in about 5 seconds , you might want to consider that flying is not for you..:nonod:
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Jaybird180 said:
This is how I learned T&G...you're telling me I've been doing it wrong all along?
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~~~ Of course not, I only meant to try to make it clear that it isn't a hurried event. Some students get rushed obviously you haven't.
And, naturally, if you've landed long etc etc and don't have sufficient runway remaining then it's a taxi back.
 
The question is if T+G save the money. If you do not have to fly away to another airport, there's a material effect, IMHO. I was based at a big Class C field and we went to satellite airports for practice. T+G did not save as much for us. Note, however, that students tend to float, and that float has to be taken away when taxiing back.

When I went to t/w endorsement, we even did one-ways for time-saving purposes (in calm winds, of course). Once it became clear that I do not stop flying the airplane at touchdown, keep directional control and can transition to brakes, then we started doing T+Gs.

I think that making people crow-hopping is worse than Touch-and-Go. Now that stuff is really hazardous, especially in the kind of airplanes that they crow-hop in. By comparison T&G seems like nothing much.

Still, I never do Touch and Go in a retractable gear airplane, unless CFI insists. Some of them say "here, I clean up the airplane, you fly it". I am not sure it's a great idea.
 
I remember living in the barracks at Lowry AFB in 1967.

This was way before simulators, and United Airlines did all their flight training at Stapleton, 1 1/2 miles from my perfectly made bunk bed.

All day, all night, all weather, every 5 minutes a United Airliner did a touch and go.

Same thing that Japan Airlines did with a 747 at Moses Lake 2-3 decades later.
 
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Ditto TWA at Rosecrans St. Joe. The balks were even better. A light 707 will go straight up.

By pure stroke of luck I got to fly the first 727 sim at the old Jack Frye bldg in downtown KC. The visual was a scale model of downtown KC area mounted vertically on a long wall in the sim bay, with a camera that was suspended from a track on the ceiling. They were having an open-house for NY big-wigs and the sign said "welcome visitors" so I went in. They weren't busy so I got the grand tour and an hour or so in the box.


kgruber said:
I remember living in the barracks at Lowry AFB in 1967.

This was way before simulators, and United Airlines did all their flight training at Stapleton, 1 1/2 miles from my perfectly made bunk bed.

All day, all night, all weather, every 5 minutes a United Airliner did a touch and go.

Same thing that Japan Airlines did with a 747 at Moses Lake 2-3 decades later.
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Everskyward said:
I never had a problem with touch and goes either as a student or an instructor. In fact, I didn't even know they were controversial until about 10 years ago.
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:yeahthat:

While I understand the cons, they've never been a big issue for me or my students.
 
kgruber said:
Same thing that Japan Airlines did with a 747 at Moses Lake 2-3 decades later.
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NWA ran their 747s up to Fargo, ND for T&Gs the first few years they had them in the early '70s. I spent countless hours photographing them. They seemed to just hang in the air, barely moving.
 
By the time a student is about ready to solo, t&gs should not feel like a rush at all, just a standard maneuver type thing.
 
NineThreeKilo said:
By the time a student is about ready to solo, t&gs should not feel like a rush at all, just a standard maneuver type thing.
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Agree totally...as long as there is plenty of runway.
 
wabower said:
+2. But a lot of teaching will have occurred the other way first.
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Ya but you're prolly a better instructor than most of us had. Neither of the guys I had for instructors prior to solo tried to provide feedback between landings. I had to ask if I was doing things correctly...
 
Mine didn't either, but most of that generation thought that being a good pilot and being a good teacher were synonymous.

If you get the opportunity to teach sim, you'll get a better appreciation of the difference when you can stop and talk at will, rather than whenever the airplane permits. But in any case, a stationary airplane where eye contact and full student attention is possible is a much more conducive learning environment than when the machine is in motion with many other fish to fry by both the student and the instructor.

Clark1961 said:
Ya but you're prolly a better instructor than most of us had. Neither of the guys I had for instructors prior to solo tried to provide feedback between landings. I had to ask if I was doing things correctly...
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KC-135s and the laser weapon system 747 and airborne command post aircraft were doing T&G at Jesse's home 'drome all week long in May.
 
denverpilot said:
KC-135s and the laser weapon system 747 and airborne command post aircraft were doing T&G at Jesse's home 'drome all week long in May.
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And they continue to do so...Now if they'd just learn to stay out of my way.
 
IMHO, doing T&G teach the student to do T&G. Landings and Taxi back teach the student to land the airplane and control it to the stop, taxi the airplane in all sorts of conditions, and perform a normal takeoff. In my experience instructing, the student concentrated so much on the go portion that they often messed up the touchdown and rushed it. Any discussion regarding the landing on the takeoff portion was totally lost on the student.

I operated a flight school and did not permit T&G in our aircraft. Our students did extremely well in earning their private pilot, with an average time in the mid 40 hour range. The national average is in the 60's. I attribute the low time performance to quality over quantity. It is easy to spot low time pilots who have been trained with T&G as a primary means of learning to fly. They are the ones who prang it on in mid field and are all over the runway. The pilots who have learned how to touch down where they intend to in a nose high attitude, on speed, are able to keep the nose in the air until it falls of its own weight, know what to do with the ailerons on the landing roll and are able to pull off the runway without using the entire field learned their techniques a different way.
 
John Collins said:
The pilots who have learned how to touch down where they intend to in a nose high attitude, on speed, are able to keep the nose in the air until it falls of its own weight, know what to do with the ailerons on the landing roll and are able to pull off the runway without using the entire field learned their techniques a different way.
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I do a lot of touch and goes and every landing with the exception of pulling off the runway is exactly as you describe. If taught properly, touch and goes should not preclude you from making a proper touch down and initial rollout.



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Fearless Tower said:
I do a lot of touch and goes and every landing with the exception of pulling off the runway is exactly as you describe. If taught properly, touch and goes should not preclude you from making a proper touch down and initial rollout.



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Good for you. You have both learned how to land and do T&G.
 
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