Touch and Go's no go with instructor

The problem with continuing the circuits ad infinitum while thinking you are making progress is that you're requiring the student to spend some number of minutes practicing things that are of no value (and could be argued to be of negative value, such as the running takeoff with attendant monkey-motion) in order to get back to the one little spot that's causing the problem. Lots of student landing issues can be solved much more quickly and effectively by use of other methods than T & G's.



marcoseddi said:
thats my worry i feel that i want to keep practicing and rather get in double the amount of landings to ensure, however maybe you are right a better instructor may not need you to do double the amounts of landings.
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wabower said:
The problem with continuing the circuits ad infinitum while thinking you are making progress is that you're requiring the student to spend some number of minutes practicing things that are of no value (and could be argued to be of negative value, such as the running takeoff with attendant monkey-motion) in order to get back to the one little spot that's causing the problem. Lots of student landing issues can be solved much more quickly and effectively by use of other methods than T & G's.
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That's a good point, and one that others have been making.

Is the point of the exercise to teach approaches and landings and takeoffs and climb-outs as efficiently as possible? Or is it to teach a maneuver called a touch and go?
 
Matthew said:
That's a good point, and one that others have been making.

Is the point of the exercise to teach approaches and landings and takeoffs and climb-outs as efficiently as possible? Or is it to teach a maneuver called a touch and go?
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Very good point too. Touch and go's are not the same as full stop landings. I'll add that one of the negative aspects of touch and go's is you don't learn the roll out portion of landing. One of the things I struggled with right after passing my checkride was the rollout after landing. I was not keeping in back pressure or putting airlerons into the wind. It was obvious why I was not when I began to think about it. I had done so many touch and go's to get ready for the check ride that I really forgot the feeling on the controls required to make full stop landings- so much so that I needed to reteach myself how to do the full stop landings with some help from CFI's.
 
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I ran a flight school for 6 years and did not permit touch and goes. I tracked our average training time for private pilots and it ran in the low to mid 40 hour range during that time for students who flew 2 to 3 times per week. The national average is in the mid 60's. In my opinion, the touch and go develops bad habits, the student doesn't learn much on the go portion and hurries up the landing portion to plant the airplane on the ground. Training airplanes take a lot of abuse, touch and goes makes it worse.

It would be very interesting for a controlled study to be performed on touch and goes during training. I would bet those that don't do them would have lower training times as was the case with my experience. Quality over quantity.

For those who claim if someone can't do a touch and go, they have no business flying, that is full of .....

A touch and go teaches someone how to wheel barrow the nose gear, how to prang the airplane on the ground and get the nose down as fast as possible, how to visit both sides of the runway and lose directional control, how to slide it in with the gear up, how to ignore what your instructor is saying and other useful skills. One thing it doesn't teach is how to go around from a low speed, high drag, low power condition, without touching the runway or how to come to a stop while keeping the nose off the ground as long as feasible, etc.
 
John Collins said:
..........
For those who claim if someone can't do a touch and go, they have no business flying, that is full of .....

A touch and go teaches someone how to wheel barrow the nose gear, how to prang the airplane on the ground and get the nose down as fast as possible, how to visit both sides of the runway and lose directional control, how to slide it in with the gear up, how to ignore what your instructor is saying and other useful skills. One thing it doesn't teach is how to go around from a low speed, high drag, low power condition, without touching the runway or how to come to a stop while keeping the nose off the ground as long as feasible, etc.
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full of crap..:dunno: :no::no::nonod:


You gave several excuses for a pilot who is poorly trained and not qualified to fly a plane... You need to look CLOSELY at your instructors and their ability to teach flying..:yes::yes::yes:...,,

What does your well trained student pilot do when he/she touches down and a deer, elk, buffalo, cow, car, truck, etc ends up on the runway 500 feet ahead.. A T&G action will save their A$$...... IMHO. YMMV..

And what if a freak gust front hits the runway just as your (perfectly) trained student touches down... I say they should hit the throttle and safely do a go around, but , according to you they need to keep it planted and get blown off the runway....

T&G training teaches INSTANT reaction abilities. You are training your prized students to not think....... BAD MOVE sir... IMHO.
 
N801BH said:
full of crap..:dunno: :no::no::nonod:


You gave several excuses for a pilot who is poorly trained and not qualified to fly a plane... You need to look CLOSELY at your instructors and their ability to teach flying..:yes::yes::yes:...,,

What does your well trained student pilot do when he/she touches down and a deer, elk, buffalo, cow, car, truck, etc ends up on the runway 500 feet ahead.. A T&G action will save their A$$...... IMHO. YMMV..

And what if a freak gust front hits the runway just as your (perfectly) trained student touches down... I say they should hit the throttle and safely do a go around, but , according to you they need to keep it planted and get blown off the runway....

T&G training teaches INSTANT reaction abilities. You are training your prized students to not think....... BAD MOVE sir... IMHO.
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FAA records suggest you (Benjamain David Haas, right?) are not and never have been a CFI -- not even a CP. Perhaps those of us with a few decades as a CFI and several thousand hours of instruction given have a better prespective on what constitutes good training and who is a competent flight instructor. Not saying you're definitely wrong and we're definitely right, but just suggesting you consider our experience and qualifications and the possibility that we may understand this problem better than you before telling us we're "full of crap."

My apologies if you are not that Ben Haas, but there is no other Ben Haas in the FAA pilot database.
 
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Ron Levy said:
FAA records suggest you (Benjamain David Haas, right?) are not and never have been a CFI -- not even a CP. Perhaps those of use with a few decades as a CFI and several thousand hours of instruction given have a better prespective on what constitutes good training and who is a competent flight instructor. Not saying you're definitely wrong and we're definitely right, but just suggesting you consider our experience and qualifications and the possibility that we may know better than you what we're talking about before telling us we're "full of crap."

My apologies if you are not that Ben Haas, but there is no other Ben Haas in the FAA pilot database.
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Good try... but you have the wrong Haas....:rofl:.

I am not a CFI, never have been one.. But I know a BAD pilot when I see one... Usually from the S&R plane and those BAD pilots are splattered all over the ground.


And as for full disclosure ...

Look for a Haas in Wyoming...

I am sure as smart as you are , you can positively identify me then..
:yes:

Try a reverse look up using my N number...... Hint.. it is my POA ID..;)
 
N801BH said:
full of crap..:dunno: :no::no::nonod:


You gave several excuses for a pilot who is poorly trained and not qualified to fly a plane... You need to look CLOSELY at your instructors and their ability to teach flying..:yes::yes::yes:...,,

What does your well trained student pilot do when he/she touches down and a deer, elk, buffalo, cow, car, truck, etc ends up on the runway 500 feet ahead.. A T&G action will save their A$$...... IMHO. YMMV..

And what if a freak gust front hits the runway just as your (perfectly) trained student touches down... I say they should hit the throttle and safely do a go around, but , according to you they need to keep it planted and get blown off the runway....

T&G training teaches INSTANT reaction abilities. You are training your prized students to not think....... BAD MOVE sir... IMHO.
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We have a disagreement on what it takes to provide quality instruction. You put a lot of words in my mouth that I didn't state. Without knowing your qualifications, how many years you have been flying, how many flight schools you have operated, how many students you have signed off, I can't comment on your qualifications, but I certainly disagree with your statements on the thread. To conclude that I am training my prized students not to think is a personal attack that is not called for.
 
John Collins said:
We have a disagreement on what it takes to provide quality instruction. You put a lot of words in my mouth that I didn't state. Without knowing your qualifications, how many years you have been flying, how many flight schools you have operated, how many students you have signed off, I can't comment on your qualifications, but I certainly disagree with your statements on the thread. To conclude that I am training my prized students not to think is a personal attack that is not called for.
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I stated my opinion and used what I thought was a decent, proper and logical approach.......

I respect your opinion........ Please respect mine...:yes:
 
N801BH said:
full of crap..:dunno: :no::no::nonod:


You gave several excuses for a pilot who is poorly trained and not qualified to fly a plane... You need to look CLOSELY at your instructors and their ability to teach flying..:yes::yes::yes:...,,

What does your well trained student pilot do when he/she touches down and a deer, elk, buffalo, cow, car, truck, etc ends up on the runway 500 feet ahead.. A T&G action will save their A$$...... IMHO. YMMV..

And what if a freak gust front hits the runway just as your (perfectly) trained student touches down... I say they should hit the throttle and safely do a go around, but , according to you they need to keep it planted and get blown off the runway....

T&G training teaches INSTANT reaction abilities. You are training your prized students to not think....... BAD MOVE sir... IMHO.
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Essentially in full agreement. And we're talking about PROPERLY performed T&Gs, NOT all the things pilots can do wrong, which is a factor in ANY maneuver.

The T&G's skills are directly transferable to go-arounds, soft field landing checks, and rough water landings/takeoffs, among others.

How about a soft field go-around after touchdown? That will be full power with MAX lift flaps. That should be taught to students not only for itself plus, it gives practice in managing the pitch with full flaps and full power that so many seem to think is so hard to control.

Learn to make your aircraft DO what you want it to do, RIGHT NOW.
 
N801BH said:
I stated my opinion and used what I thought was a decent, proper and logical approach.......

I respect your opinion........ Please respect mine...:yes:
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You clearly do not respect my opinion by evidence of your posts. I place no value on yours as well.
 
N801BH said:
Good try... but you have the wrong Haas....:rofl:.
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I did -- Stephen Bennet Haas. Now I understand the "Ben" part. PP-ASEL, date of issue 2007, although that date can be misleading.

I am not a CFI, never have been one..
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Got that part, so I'll stick with what I said -- think about whether we who have the qualifications and experience in the business of giving flight training and who've been doing this for a very long time might just have a better perspective on the issue.
 
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Ron Levy said:
I did -- Stephen Bennet Haas. Now I understand the "Ben" part. PP-ASEL, date of issue 2007, although that date can be misleading.

Got that part, so I'll stick with what I said -- think about whether we who have the qualifications and experience in the business of giving flight training and who've been doing this for a very long time might just have a better perspective on the issue.
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Cute comeback with you detective skills... if you were a fish at Seaworld we could throw you a fish for getting a simple task right...:yes::lol:.

2007 is VERY misleading ... I have owned several certified planes and now this EXTREMELY experimental.. I have probably been flying before you worn diapers. I have NEVER even scratched a plane, never had the FAA come after me for any reason, never declared an emergency.. ( altho with the last plane I thought about it a few times) :rofl::lol::rofl:.....

In the thousands of hours I have as PIC I have not even had to "call the tower" .....

Now, if you want to insinuate that since I am not a CFI I must be inferior then you sir have to deal with reality,, and get off your high horse...:yes:;).

Cheers... Peace... Over and OUT............
 
Ron Levy said:
Touch and goes are a double edged sword. On the good side, they get a lot more approaches and touchdowns in the same amount of side, which saves money. On the bad side, they don't exercise anything in the landing beyond touchdown (and most landing accidents occur due to the pilot not maintaining control after touchdown), they require the pilot to divert attention from aircraft control to reconfiguration for takeoff (again, encouraging loss of control and, in retractables, a potential inadvertant gear retraction on the runway), and they kill any real opportunity for the instructor and trainee to discuss the approach and landing just completed (because the trainee is now busy doing the takeoff, climbout, and pattern). On the other hand, doing full stop/taxi back avoids all those issues, but does take more time and therefore gets fewer landings per dollar for the trainee. On the third hand, those fewer landings may be providing better training quality overall.

So, it's not a cut-and-dried issue, and depends on what you're flying, where you're flying, and how the trainee is progressing -- every case is different, and the answer may change as the trainee progresses.
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Good post Ron, I agree.
I do a lot of touch and goes but have some rules about using them as a result of the points you made.
1. If you can't slow down to fast taxi speed then do a full stop. Just touching really doesn't teach the student much and as you point out most accidents occur on the roll out, not the touchdown.
2. If you need to reconfigure before take off, then do a full stop or stop and go. Avoid head in the cockpit time while moving. Especially in retractable aircraft.
3. Tailwheel aircraft, almost always do a at least a stop and go. You need the practice keeping straight all the way to a stop.
4. IF we need to discuss the approach or landing in detail then we taxi back.

Brian
CFIIG/ASEL
 
Dave Krall CFII said:
RG or Fixed Gear, is a T&G landing more damaging than one to a full stop to the gear? Shouldn't be for the landing gear.

The aircraft landing gear shouldn't even know any difference until the slowing landing roll is converted with full power to a take off run.

Properly trained, we do T&Gs on Camano Island WA's public airport, less than 2000 feet, with Cherokees, C150s through C205 and AeroCommander, no problem because of minimal obstacles.

One guy did almost put a Skyhawk into the bay on an overrun from an attempted full stop landing though. Exhaust pipe caught on a tree stump and held the plane there until the crane came.
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I like Camano for the challenge but I don't pesonally feel happy doing T&G there. I'm not a fan of the fence and crossing road on the south end.... Plus it's a fair steep uphill in that direction. All in all I prefer to land south, turn around, and T/O north there unless the wind is really whipping. It's what, 1700 x 20?
 
On the subject of T&G, I'm no CFI, but I'll bet that one time dragging a 10,000 foot runway at 2'AGL and at MCA is worth 100 T&Gs in terms of aircraft control, energy management, and touchdown sight picture visualization.
 
slacktide said:
I like Camano for the challenge but I don't pesonally feel happy doing T&G there. I'm not a fan of the fence and crossing road on the south end.... Plus it's a fair steep uphill in that direction. All in all I prefer to land south, turn around, and T/O north there unless the wind is really whipping. It's what, 1700 x 20?
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I get in there with all flight students ASAP. Learning there during their Primacy Phase helps them not to whine about airports less than a half mile long, the way so many pilots do.

Even better for flight students, on their take-off's very low upwind, power is pulled for engine out sim to an actual landing in the grass meadow that they spot and use, then find out it is actually a private strip.
 
I am a CFI, have used that exercise for nigh on 40 years and agree that it's worth a bunch of them. Maybe not quite a hundred, but close enough for gub'mint work.


slacktide said:
On the subject of T&G, I'm no CFI, but I'll bet that one time dragging a 10,000 foot runway at 2'AGL and at MCA is worth 100 T&Gs in terms of aircraft control, energy management, and touchdown sight picture visualization.
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slacktide said:
On the subject of T&G, I'm no CFI, but I'll bet that one time dragging a 10,000 foot runway at 2'AGL and at MCA is worth 100 T&Gs in terms of aircraft control, energy management, and touchdown sight picture visualization.
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Maybe not a hundred but many for sure, alternate touching the main gear and up the value 10X. Would each main gear touch be a half of a T&G?
 
\__[Ô]__/;1084834 said:
I'm certainly not disputing the accident records. I'm just trying to better understand how it's happening so i can make more informed decisions on flying/teaching in complex planes. If there are planes where these levers are easily confused and/or without a safety detent on the gear, that suggests one thing.

If those accidents are happening in planes where those levers are quite distinct (which has been the case in all the complex planes i've flown so far), that may point to a different cause.
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I hear early Bonaza's had the switches switched and its easy to grab the landing gear when you mean to grab the flaps.
 
Ron Levy said:
If the airplane would simply "coast down to a stop after you made the landing" then you'd be right. Unfortunately, the accident stats tell us the most common accident we have in light plane flying is loss of control after touchdown before coming to a stop, and T&G's a) don't exercise those skills, and b) teach new pilots that part isn't important (or we'd practice it more). And the statistics tell us that problem is not limited to tailwheel planes.
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Not to be argumentative at all, unfortunately at the moment I am flying about 1/2 hr a week. What can I do to optimize my attempts to stay proficient at local VFR flight in a Comanche 250?

I don't get out every week. When I have not been in the plane for more than 2-3 months I get a CFI to go with me. However most of the time what I have been doing is a normal take off, possibly a single TnG at my airfield just to knock the dust off which might take 8 minutes, then I head about 18 minutes, 45 miles to a near field that has some different runways and I do a TnG there unless I have to stop for pee break, then I head 7-8 minutes, 18 miles back to another midway field and then finally a another 15 minutes, full stop at my home drone.

I usually do this in about .7-.9 hrs every other week on average. When I haven't flown for 3 weeks or longer I just do 3 TnG's at the same field and then sometimes go to another field 22 miles away for a hamburger and cheap fuel.

Although I am not flying to altitude and descending (a skill I work on when doing long xcountry trips) I am still going through the mechanics of awos, adjusting for field elevation, entering the traffic patterns, watching for traffic, setting and talking on Ctaf and such.

So would you recommend that rather than TnG I do a low fly over and missed approach or go around? How else might I optimize this flying... I am not necessarily trying to save flight time, money but I have just had difficulties getting away for more than 2 hrs including driving time.

Open to some good suggestions.
 
For such practice I encourage the use of a memorized flow followed by the use of a written check list as a "done" list. That means everything from preflight to shutdown, to reinforce good habits during slow times when things might slip due to inactivity.

Tony_Scarpelli said:
Not to be argumentative at all, unfortunately at the moment I am flying about 1/2 hr a week. What can I do to optimize my attempts to stay proficient at local VFR flight in a Comanche 250?

I don't get out every week. When I have not been in the plane for more than 2-3 months I get a CFI to go with me. However most of the time what I have been doing is a normal take off, possibly a single TnG at my airfield just to knock the dust off which might take 8 minutes, then I head about 18 minutes, 45 miles to a near field that has some different runways and I do a TnG there unless I have to stop for pee break, then I head 7-8 minutes, 18 miles back to another midway field and then finally a another 15 minutes, full stop at my home drone.

I usually do this in about .7-.9 hrs every other week on average. When I haven't flown for 3 weeks or longer I just do 3 TnG's at the same field and then sometimes go to another field 22 miles away for a hamburger and cheap fuel.

Although I am not flying to altitude and descending (a skill I work on when doing long xcountry trips) I am still going through the mechanics of awos, adjusting for field elevation, entering the traffic patterns, watching for traffic, setting and talking on Ctaf and such.

So would you recommend that rather than TnG I do a low fly over and missed approach or go around? How else might I optimize this flying... I am not necessarily trying to save flight time, money but I have just had difficulties getting away for more than 2 hrs including driving time.

Open to some good suggestions.
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My first solo consisted of 3 touch and gos. The airport was at 6K' MSL and had long runways to accommodate jet traffic.

Because of that I may have a false sense of security about the amount of runway required.

I did not know there was such a controversy.
 
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Ron Levy said:
...and then you bailed out? Surely there was at least one full stop...
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:rofl::lol::rofl:...

That restores my faith in Ron...... He does have a sense of humor... Who would have thought :dunno:;)
 
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I always use BCGUMPS and Checklist if that is what you mean?

wabower said:
For such practice I encourage the use of a memorized flow followed by the use of a written check list as a "done" list. That means everything from preflight to shutdown, to reinforce good habits during slow times when things might slip due to inactivity.
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As far as the issue of "landing problems" goes. After my PPL I switched from a long wing (Warrior) to a high wing (182RG) and I was having a difficult time getting the sight picture. My CFI took me out at altitude and we put the airplane in landing configuration and did stalls. Just small gentle stalls, not crazy big ones or even really training stalls. It gave me the sight picture I needed. Less than an hour of training away from the runway fixed a lot of my problems.
 
How about all the other phases? Pre-start, after start, taxi, pre-takeoff, lineup, after take-off, climb, cruise, etc.

Tony_Scarpelli said:
I always use BCGUMPS and Checklist if that is what you mean?
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Ron Levy said:
...and then you bailed out? Surely there was at least one full stop...
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Three T&Gs plus a full stop or 2+1. This why I stopped doing math in public.

Logbook says (3) T&Gs and (3)TO & LDG so who knows what actually happened. :lol:
 
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wickedsprint said:
Three T&Gs plus a full stop or 2+1. This why I stopped doing math in public.
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Ummm...yes, I can see that.

Logbook says (3) T&Gs and (3)TO & LDG so who knows what actually happened. :lol:
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What happened is you piloted an aircraft from takeoff to landing entirely by yourself -- and that's the only really important issue.
 
DogDaddy said:
Maybe you can do Stop and Go's, and make each "Go" a short field takeoff. I've done that on the 3500 ft runway here.
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A friend of mine does stop and gos in the first 1000' of runway, in his cherokee 140.
 
There are a lot of poor excuses given above for pilots that can't properly execute basic and traditional flight training maneuvers because of poor judgment and poor technique, supposedly justified in the name of safety.

Is this practice an east coast thing, or just another sign, that the end is near?
 
My 2 cents.
I love doing touch and gos. I use them as a warm-up exercise for almost every flight. Unless I'm really pressed for time, I'll do one ot two at the start of every flight then head off for the adventure du jour.
I especially like practicing one wheel "crosswind" landings when there is little or no crosswind. First one side, then the other, then get it off the ground and keep it down the middle of the runway. The whole point is to practice ALL the required skills to stay sharp, T&G's included.
I'm a right coaster, and all of the instructors I know insist on them, so it's not a coastal thing.
 
Dave Krall CFII said:
T&Gs are just a step away from a go-around too, an absolutely essential pilot skill.
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Agreed. Less of an issue with a trike, but in a taildragger if you start getting all catywampus on roll-out your best bet might be to firewall it and fly off
 
wabower said:
For such practice I encourage the use of a memorized flow followed by the use of a written check list as a "done" list. That means everything from preflight to shutdown, to reinforce good habits during slow times when things might slip due to inactivity.
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Cub: Checklist?

Mooney: Checklist comes out for every phase except pattern work, past the FAF or on landing rollout. For those I use a top-down flow, starting with the gear that is run abeam the landing point and again when turning final.
 
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