Touch and Go in actual?

comanchepilot

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Joe Farrell, yeah, him
Weather is 200 and 1. Class D airspace. Open control tower. Lower 48.

On an active IFR flight plan . . . how can you do a touch and go?

I see all sorts of potential issues here -
 
what is the issue?

"What are your intentions?"

"I am practicing approaches, but intend to touch the wheels before flying the published missed. Will be back with you for Approach X at XYZ."
 
Ok - just seems usual, thats all.


I have requested "Vectors in the soup, between 2k and 4k," and they have never questioned it at KC Approach. Of course, they aren't really busy.

when filing, just tell them or while in air, that you are up getting some "Actual IMC" and have a few approaches in mind.
 
what is the issue?

"What are your intentions?"

"I am practicing approaches, but intend to touch the wheels before flying the published missed. Will be back with you for Approach X at XYZ."


Is it legal and/or smart to fly the missed after touching the wheels on the ground? I mean, at that point isn't it a little late?
 
Is it legal and/or smart to fly the missed after touching the wheels on the ground? I mean, at that point isn't it a little late?

This post gelled it for me - the missed is designed to provide terrain and obstacle clearance from the missed approach point / etc. What you need to fly from the ground is the departure procedure or the ODP if there is possible terrain or other obstacles around you. So how does the tower assign it? Seems like an awkward exchange wit hte hte tower -

N12345 cleared for the ILS. . . contact Tower

N12345 Cleared to for the option fly [insert missed approach procedure / ODP]

I dunno - it just seems not designed to minimize the risk . . .
 
The missed approach procedure should be flown anytime you execute a missed unless the approach ends in a visual segment. See ASE.

TERPs provides for obstacle and terrain clearance from the MAP though. But what else are you going to do? ODP is not appropriate either as ATC is not going to expect that and IFR is all about expectations.

Of course, if you're doing T&Gs you'd be coordinating that with the tower so that takes care of the expectation part. I was more talking about what to do if you go missed late, like when that fuel truck drives out onto the runway on short final...

In ASE I might well land on the taxi way!
 
It's not uncommon for large aircraft shooting Cat III approaches to have their main gear touch the runway on a missed. Remember, when you're cleared for an approach, your clearance limit is the holding fix on the missed approach.
 
The missed approach procedure should be flown anytime you execute a missed unless the approach ends in a visual segment. See ASE.

TERPs provides for obstacle and terrain clearance from the MAP though. But what else are you going to do? ODP is not appropriate either as ATC is not going to expect that and IFR is all about expectations.

Of course, if you're doing T&Gs you'd be coordinating that with the tower so that takes care of the expectation part. I was more talking about what to do if you go missed late, like when that fuel truck drives out onto the runway on short final...

In ASE I might well land on the taxi way!
ASE is an interesting place. If I was a fed and needed a little help reaching my monthly violation quota I wouldn't even bother checking guys just as they are getting ready to leave Aspen. I've get them as they were taxiing in. I'd be comparing their landing weight with the data from their approach climb charts.

Aspen is a interesting airport to operate out of. One runway and all landings are normally to the south and all takeoffs are to the north. On busy days it gets pretty "interesting" when they clear you for an immediate takeoff with one airplane well past Red Table inbound and another one on about a 4 mile final. You need to be paying attention and be able to follow directions.
 
First, there is nothing inherently wrong with flying an approach to a touch and go and then continuing on an IFR clearance -- I do it with my clients quite often. However, you have to remember that once you go below the MDA/DA and/or past the missed approach point, flying the published missed approach no longer guarantees obstruction clearance. If you do a T&G, you have to figure just like you are flying a normal IFR departure from that airport, and consider the standard departure procedure from AIM 5-2-8 or the ODP if published at least until you get to the MDA. This is discussed in the AIM 5-4-21 Missed Approach.
b. Obstacle protection for missed approach is predicated on the missed approach being initiated at the decision altitude/height (DA/H) or at the missed approach point and not lower than minimum descent altitude (MDA). A climb gradient of at least 200 feet per nautical mile is required, (except for Copter approaches, where a climb of at least 400 feet per nautical mile is required), unless a higher climb gradient is published in the notes section of the approach procedure chart. When higher than standard climb gradients are specified, the end point of the non-standard climb will be specified at either an altitude or a fix. Pilots must preplan to ensure that the aircraft can meet the climb gradient (expressed in feet per nautical mile) required by the procedure in the event of a missed approach, and be aware that flying at a higher than anticipated ground speed increases the climb rate requirement (feet per minute). Tables for the conversion of climb gradients (feet per nautical mile) to climb rate (feet per minute), based on ground speed, are included on page D1 of the U.S. Terminal Procedures booklets. Reasonable buffers are provided for normal maneuvers. However, no consideration is given to an abnormally early turn. Therefore, when an early missed approach is executed, pilots should, unless otherwise cleared by ATC, fly the IAP as specified on the approach plate to the missed approach point at or above the MDA or DH before executing a turning maneuver.
...
h. A clearance for an instrument approach procedure includes a clearance to fly the published missed approach procedure, unless otherwise instructed by ATC. The published missed approach procedure provides obstacle clearance only when the missed approach is conducted on the missed approach segment from or above the missed approach point, and assumes a climb rate of 200 feet/NM or higher, as published. If the aircraft initiates a missed approach at a point other than the missed approach point (see paragraph 5-4-5b), from below MDA or DA (H), or on a circling approach, obstacle clearance is not necessarily provided by following the published missed approach procedure, nor is separation assured from other air traffic in the vicinity.
In the event a balked (rejected) landing occurs at a position other than the published missed approach point, the pilot should contact ATC as soon as possible to obtain an amended clearance. If unable to contact ATC for any reason, the pilot should attempt to re-intercept a published segment of the missed approach and comply with route and altitude instructions. If unable to contact ATC, and in the pilot's judgment it is no longer appropriate to fly the published missed approach procedure, then consider either maintaining visual conditions if practicable and reattempt a landing, or a circle-climb over the airport. Should a missed approach become necessary when operating to an airport that is not served by an operating control tower, continuous contact with an air traffic facility may not be possible. In this case, the pilot should execute the appropriate go-around/missed approach procedure without delay and contact ATC when able to do so.
Prior to initiating an instrument approach procedure, the pilot should assess the actions to be taken in the event of a balked (rejected) landing beyond the missed approach point or below the MDA or DA (H) considering the anticipated weather conditions and available aircraft performance. 14 CFR 91.175(e) authorizes the pilot to fly an appropriate missed approach procedure that ensures obstruction clearance, but it does not necessarily consider separation from other air traffic. The pilot must consider other factors such as the aircraft's geographical location with respect to the prescribed missed approach point, direction of flight, and/or minimum turning altitudes in the prescribed missed approach procedure. The pilot must also consider aircraft performance, visual climb restrictions, charted obstacles, published obstacle departure procedure, takeoff visual climb requirements as expressed by nonstandard takeoff minima, other traffic expected to be in the vicinity, or other factors not specifically expressed by the approach procedures.
 
Unless you want to do the published missed, most likely he's going to give you climb out instructions that have nothing to do with the missed.

"N12345 after completion of the option, climb and maintain 2,000 fly runway heading."

Contact tower.

"N12345, runway___, wind___, cleared for the option."

1/2 mile off the departure end

"N12345 contact departure on ____."

We used to have P-3s and C-17s stay in the radar pattern for hours and the only time they actually needed to do the published missed is when they requested it for training.
 
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most likely he's going to give you climb out instructions that have nothing to do with the missed.
This.
Happens every time I do multiple approaches. Controller gives specific climb out instructions. Doesn't matter if you're actual or not, if you're on an ifr clearance, the procedure is the same.

I teach, and think it is common practice, to ask for a specific climb out heading when on an instrument approach that is close to actual minimums, and you think you may make a missed. No sense in flying a published missed heading west when I want to go east on the missed.

The published missed is only there for the 'unplanned' missed.
 
I gave you guys the actual weather -you think a T&G is ok in a 200' ceiling in actual?

I can see airplanes cleared into multiple racetracks and departing to the FAF and then into the approach and taking back off with a safety pilot in VFR conditions - you have a safety pilot.

Ron has it right - Im not saying it is not done or there can be a bastardization of the procedures to make it happen - but taking off from a runway into a 200' ceiling requires you fly an ODP if its there. . . .thats why the 'option' though perhaps legal does not seem like the best choice -

Land - and while you are taxing back activate the next flight plan - tell approach to expect it and when on final tell the tower you have one - if the extra 3 minutes means that much . . .
 
my personal opinion is that T&G's in general are an unnecessary risk and I don't do them in CAVU. So i certainly wouldn't combine that with a departure into a low overcast which demands attention in and of itself.
 
my personal opinion is that T&G's in general are an unnecessary risk and I don't do them in CAVU. So i certainly wouldn't combine that with a departure into a low overcast which demands attention in and of itself.

okay, make it full-stop and go. Would you do it? Why or why not?
 
At what point is your IFR clearance ended, to the point where you would require a new one to continue flight? I can't imagine a full taxi back stop and go could be completed in actual without a new clearance.

Or can it?
 
I gave you guys the actual weather -you think a T&G is ok in a 200' ceiling in actual?

I can see airplanes cleared into multiple racetracks and departing to the FAF and then into the approach and taking back off with a safety pilot in VFR conditions - you have a safety pilot.

Ron has it right - Im not saying it is not done or there can be a bastardization of the procedures to make it happen - but taking off from a runway into a 200' ceiling requires you fly an ODP if its there. . . .thats why the 'option' though perhaps legal does not seem like the best choice -

Land - and while you are taxing back activate the next flight plan - tell approach to expect it and when on final tell the tower you have one - if the extra 3 minutes means that much . . .

If you never planned on landing there than a T&G isn't an issue. Don't worry about the ODP because ATC is going to issue climbout instructions that will comply with any ODP anyway. You could get your clearance on downwind for your next leg as well.

Now, strictly from a single pilot task over load factor? Yes I'd land, regroup and pick my clearance up on the ground. Then again, it all depends on how confident I am in my aircraft's capabilities to be shooting an approach to 200/1 in the first place.
 
Weather is 200 and 1. Class D airspace. Open control tower. Lower 48.

On an active IFR flight plan . . . how can you do a touch and go?

Well, you might want to use your emergency authority to avoid that vehicle that just entered the runway up ahead. But I don't think that's the kind of thing you're asking about.

Short answer; you can't.
 
what is the issue?

"What are your intentions?"

"I am practicing approaches, but intend to touch the wheels before flying the published missed. Will be back with you for Approach X at XYZ."

You can touch the wheels, or you can fly the published missed approach procedure, you cannot do both.
 
Is it legal and/or smart to fly the missed after touching the wheels on the ground? I mean, at that point isn't it a little late?

You can miss after touching down... think fog. It may not be the smartest option, but it's an option.

[p.s. Steven is correct on the law of it... but I'm sure someone has done it... what's going to happen is the controller is going to issue an all new IFR clearance... what choice would they have? Deny it after you're already airborne in a fog bank? There's a bit of reality vs. how regs are written, going on in this corner-case scenario... hell, if it's that foggy, they may not have even been able to see if you touched down... they're just going to see you go into the fog bank and declare the miss... if they could even see that.]
 
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At what point is your IFR clearance ended, to the point where you would require a new one to continue flight? I can't imagine a full taxi back stop and go could be completed in actual without a new clearance.

Or can it?

When landing at an airport with a functioning control tower, IFR flight plans are
automatically canceled. At what point have you landed?
 
When landing at an airport with a functioning control tower, IFR flight plans are
automatically canceled. At what point have you landed?

At whatever point the controller hits the button and throws the flight strip in the bucket. LOL...

(Well, you wanted an answer... hahaha... )
 
When landing at an airport with a functioning control tower, IFR flight plans are
automatically canceled. At what point have you landed?

Sometime between "Exit on alpha, contact ground point five" and "ground, this is....." I presume?
 
At what point is your IFR clearance ended, to the point where you would require a new one to continue flight? I can't imagine a full taxi back stop and go could be completed in actual without a new clearance.

Or can it?
At towered airports, it ends when cancel IFR or land full stop and taxi in and tower cancels for you. Anywhere else, it ends when you cancel IFR.
 
At what point is your IFR clearance ended, to the point where you would require a new one to continue flight? I can't imagine a full taxi back stop and go could be completed in actual without a new clearance.

Or can it?
At one time evidently you could get a "through flight" clearance (I think that was what it was called.) that allowed you to make an enroute stop without getting another clearance. I had ATC offer one to me once when the weather was down and there was no easy way to pickup a clearance on the ground. The controller cleared us to our ultimate destination "through" our fuel stop. We were on the ground long enough to pick up our company execs and take on a bit of fuel then we simply took back off and contacted ATC. No muss, no fuss. In 35 years, that has happened to me exactly once. I don't know if it's even available now.
 
At one time evidently you could get a "through flight" clearance (I think that was what it was called.) that allowed you to make an enroute stop without getting another clearance. I had ATC offer one to me once when the weather was down and there was no easy way to pickup a clearance on the ground. The controller cleared us to our ultimate destination "through" our fuel stop. We were on the ground long enough to pick up our company execs and take on a bit of fuel then we simply took back off and contacted ATC. No muss, no fuss. In 35 years, that has happened to me exactly once. I don't know if it's even available now.

I did "tower enroute" during my IR training but haven't done it since. That was several years ago.
 
At one time evidently you could get a "through flight" clearance (I think that was what it was called.) that allowed you to make an enroute stop without getting another clearance. I had ATC offer one to me once when the weather was down and there was no easy way to pickup a clearance on the ground. The controller cleared us to our ultimate destination "through" our fuel stop. We were on the ground long enough to pick up our company execs and take on a bit of fuel then we simply took back off and contacted ATC. No muss, no fuss. In 35 years, that has happened to me exactly once. I don't know if it's even available now.

Still available, it's just "through clearance".
 
What button? What flight strip?

Heh... well, whatever you folk in that fancy tall building do. :) :) :)

(My joke was that there's some action up there that finishes off the flight plan, but you magicians handle that stuff...) :)
 
Heh... well, whatever you folk in that fancy tall building do. :) :) :)

(My joke was that there's some action up there that finishes off the flight plan, but you magicians handle that stuff...) :)

Well that's just it, there really isn't anything that needs to be done to finish off the flight plan. Why should there be? You've landed safely at your destination. ATC, in the person of the tower controller, is aware of that because he either saw you land or you reported off the runway if the viz is crappy. The flight plan doesn't have to be removed from the system because it's all used up. You're at the end of the line, nobody is expecting you at any further point.
 
Well that's just it, there really isn't anything that needs to be done to finish off the flight plan. Why should there be? You've landed safely at your destination. ATC, in the person of the tower controller, is aware of that because he either saw you land or you reported off the runway if the viz is crappy. The flight plan doesn't have to be removed from the system because it's all used up. You're at the end of the line, nobody is expecting you at any further point.

Ahh, fascinating... so there's really no "finished" button... heh. Good to know...
 
Ahh, fascinating... so there's really no "finished" button... heh. Good to know...
In a combined TRACON/Tower, that's essentially correct. Where the Tower is not the IFR control facility, say, at Salisbury MD, the tower controller has to pick up the phone and tell the IFR controlling facility (Patuxent Approach, in the Salisbury case) you're on the ground. In any event, it takes an act by tower to cancel the IFR clearance in the system, and if they don't do that act, there's nothing to prevent doing a T&G and staying IFR -- happens all the time.
 
In a combined TRACON/Tower, that's essentially correct. Where the Tower is not the IFR control facility, say, at Salisbury MD, the tower controller has to pick up the phone and tell the IFR controlling facility (Patuxent Approach, in the Salisbury case) you're on the ground. In any event, it takes an act by tower to cancel the IFR clearance in the system, and if they don't do that act, there's nothing to prevent doing a T&G and staying IFR -- happens all the time.

Even with VFR towers there isn't anything that needs to be done to finish off the flight plan. It may be still be required at some locations, but there's no need for it.
 
Even with VFR towers there isn't anything that needs to be done to finish off the flight plan. It may be still be required at some locations, but there's no need for it.
I can't speak to the flight plan filed with FSS, but until Tower calls Approach and says "he's on the ground," the TRACON cannot clear anyone else into that airspace, and they must keep the missed approach airspace clear.
 
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