Top Rudder in Steep Turns?

A 90° bank turn makes me laugh. A normal steep turn to me is a 60°, 2G turn. Most pilots I meet **** little green men when subjected to these turns. 60° is where the load factor curve really starts to climb. 70° you're at 3G, 75° at 4, 80° you're at 6g and unless you've been taught how to use your muscles and breath, you'll be in 'grey out' territory. 84° and you're at 9G, not many planes still are flying at 9G, they are typically going to be plummeting. Remember as well that all this bank load factor adds a lot of drag. Most planes don't have enough energy to complete a level 360° 6G turn.

For 90° you aren't really banked anymore, you have traded lifting surfaces from the wing to the fuselage and you need a buttload of power in a light plane to do that.
 
Jaybird180 said:
The fact that this occurs we agree on. Not sure if thats a complete definition
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I knew I wasn't making it up out of whole cloth...

From the FAA's Pilot's Handbook of Aeronautical Knowledge:

In a slipping turn, the aircraft is not turning at the rate appropriate to the bank being used, since the aircraft is yawed toward the outside of the turning flightpath. The aircraft is banked too much for the ROT, so the horizontal lift component is greater than the centrifugal force. Equilibrium between the horizontal lift component and centrifugal force is reestablished by either decreasing the bank, increasing the ROT, or a combination of the two changes.
 
Ron Levy said:
Ignore the article and don't try to overthink this -- just use whatever aileron is necessary to maintain bank angle, and whatever rudder is necessary to keep the ball centered. And whatever elevator is necessary to keep the nose where it belongs with respect to the horizon.
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Yes. This is the correct answer. That said, be prepared to apply more rudder (although not "top" rudder) in steep turns to the right.

For people just learning to do steep turns here's a multimedia presentation that might help:

http://www.goldsealgroundschool.com/extras/steep-turns/

...
 
In a slip, the tail drops inside the turn radius. In a skid, it moves outside the turn radius inducing yaw.
 
From the PHAK:

Slipping turn. An uncoordinated turn in which the aircraft
is banked too much for the rate of turn, so the horizontal lift
component is greater than the centrifugal force, pulling the
aircraft toward the inside of the turn.
 
write-stuff said:
From the PHAK:

Slipping turn. An uncoordinated turn in which the aircraft
is banked too much for the rate of turn, so the horizontal lift
component is greater than the centrifugal force, pulling the
aircraft toward the inside of the turn.
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I think that definition is the cause of far more confusion than it cures. It's not incorrect, but it doesn't really tell the student anything and ignores the fact that the slips they are being taught are not taught as turns.

I much prefer the definition you used above, but it still will leave confusion about "forward slips" since there is no turning involved.
 
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One thing I teach students regarding the inclinometer and coordination: The center position is the aircraft's nose. The ball is the aircraft's tail. When they are both together, the tail is tracking the nose.
 
write-stuff said:
One thing I teach students regarding the inclinometer and coordination: The center position is the aircraft's nose. The ball is the aircraft's tail. When they are both together, the tail is tracking the nose.
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That's a good one.

Once you realize that a slip is actually two competing turns, one by things, the other the fuselage, and that's why a 'forward slip' goes straight ahead, and that the FAA definition is just talking about the turn the wing is describing as the turn and that the fuselage and prop trying to go a different direction dragging the wing to the outside of the turn and is the cause of the reduced rate of turn, then the FAA definition makes much more sense, but they don't make that clear.
 
Henning said:
BTW, You never will enter a spin from a slip, as the wing comes over the slip will turn to a skid. Spins are always entered from a skid. It's difficult to inadvertently enter a spin from a slip as the plane typically loses rotational energy coming over and if you don't maintain full deflections in most planes people train in, you will just bobble into a level stall recovery. If you are skidding the turn and stall though, you stall low (retreating) wing first and she tuck right around in a hurry.
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There are way too many combinations of aircraft types/chracteristics and combinations of power settings, airspeeds, and control inputs to make generalized statements about never being able to spin from a slip. My Pitts can be spun from slips set up in certain ways....even a certain one with NO rudder applied whatsoever...but with slipped aileron input. :) This requires power on. And you can snap roll it from a power off slip if you have enough airspeed and move the elevator quickly enough. It will NOT spin from a power off full deflection slip if you approach the stall slowly. You'll end up with full rudder and the stick in a rear corner, just bobbing along...without even a proper stall break. Not much point in trying to dissect all the different configurations for anything more than academic discussion.

And before anyone says a Pitts is very different, it's not. Despite widespread perception, a Pitts does not have any unique flying characteristics other than the fact that it has effective controls, and no built-in pilot proofing qualities. It is very neutral. It will pretty much do just what you ask it to in a VERY predictable and typical manner. Some people think the airplane is a snake in the grass. Far from it. Ask it to do the wrong thing, and it will simply do it more readily than many trainer types. But it will also quickly recover ANY upset or spin entry just by pulling power off and neutralizing all controls.
 
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How does it enter a spin in a slip without first transitioning to a skid?
 
Henning said:
How does it enter a spin in a slip without first transitioning to a skid?
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Well if your definition of transitioning to a skid is simply passing through the moment the stall/spin occurs, then I guess it's impossible to spin in a slip. :) But that won't help the undertrained pilot who reads on the internet that it's impossible to spin from a slip, and wonders why rotating ground is filling his windscreen...after holding "spin proof" slipped inputs.
 
whifferdill said:
Well if your definition of transitioning to a skid is simply passing through the moment the stall/spin occurs, then I guess it's impossible to spin in a slip. :) But that won't help the undertrained pilot who reads on the internet that it's impossible to spin from a slip, and wonders why rotating ground is filling his windscreen...after holding "spin proof" slipped inputs.
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'splain
 
Jaybird180 said:
'splain
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To go into a spin from a slip, the low wing will come over the top (the upper wing is retreating so will stall first) as soon as it passes through horizontal, it becomes skid unless you reverse the rudder.
 
Henning said:
To go into a spin from a slip, the low wing will come over the top (the upper wing is retreating so will stall first) as soon as it passes through horizontal, it becomes skid unless you reverse the rudder.
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Well at this point, the airplane is stalled, so I'm not sure if the terms 'skid' or 'slip' really apply, and how that matters to a pilot who just produced a stall/spin from what were slipped inputs just before the ground started rotating.
 
whifferdill said:
Well at this point, the airplane is stalled, so I'm not sure if the terms 'skid' or 'slip' really apply, and how that matters to a pilot who just produced a stall/spin from what were slipped inputs just before the ground started rotating.
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At this point the plane is half/partially stalled, that's why it spins...:D


The difference it makes is that it is very difficult to find yourself in a spin from slip in a 172 or PA-28, they tend to self recover in the horizontal plane and bobble a stall. Slipping in the pattern is nothing particular to fear for most people, especially an inadvertent entry.

Being afraid to get the wing down in the pattern though, and forcing the turn through with the rudder, can get you in serious trouble very quickly. While a slip will give you adequate warning of having exceeded limits and help you recover from that mistake, a skidding turn stalled will give no such notice or assistance in recovery, it just tucks under and goes for it.
 
Henning said:
The difference it makes is that it is very difficult to find yourself in a spin from slip in a 172 or PA-28, they tend to self recover in the horizontal plane and bobble a stall. Slipping in the pattern is nothing particular to fear for most people, especially an inadvertent entry.

Being afraid to get the wing down in the pattern though, and forcing the turn through with the rudder, can get you in serious trouble very quickly. While a slip will give you adequate warning of having exceeded limits and help you recover from that mistake, a skidding turn stalled will give no such notice or assistance in recovery, it just tucks under and goes for it.
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Generally agree with all that, just not a blanket statement about being unable to spin from any type of slip. Again, lots of different slip configurations and aircraft types. I'll admit it requires some creativity to spin from a slip in the Pitts, but inexperienced pilots are very good at doing "creative" things in airplanes, especially if they think they can't get into trouble doing them.
 
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