Too risky to flight instruct?

Clip4 said:
Sign a waiver in Florida and try to prevail in a lawsuit for anything other than gross negligence. That state protected those that who obtain waivers rather well. So have other states.
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A waiver between you and me is effective as to you and me. I can't waive the rights of my wife to sue you for my wrongful death.
 
bradg33 said:
A waiver between you and me is effective as to you and me. I can't waive the rights of my wife to sue you for my wrongful death.
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Like just about everything about liability waivers, it depends a lot on the language of the waiver and the general friendliness or unfriendliness of a particular state's law.
 
bradg33 said:
A waiver between you and me is effective as to you and me. I can't waive the rights of my wife to sue you for my wrongful death.
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You better check the laws of the state before you sign an exculpatory agreement because what you just posted is not true in all states.

If the deceased party has signed a waiver of liability in which he or she (on behalf on himself, his spouse, heirs, and assigns) agrees to release the provider from liability for injury or death resulting from the negligence of the provider, in most states, such an agreement is binding on the family and takes away the rights of the survivors to sue for damages. In these states, the survivor’s claim is said to be derivative – that is, the claim of the survivors or parties filing the action is valid only if a claim by the deceased (had he been injured, but survived) would have been valid. In these states the waiver signed by the deceased releasing the defendant provider from liability is examined by the court. If that waiver would be ruled valid and enforceable against the deceased, it is valid against the claim of the survivors.
 
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As an aviation claims adjuster I can add my 2 cents. As mentioned in the thread, although the worst case scenario is always possible, in reality it doesn’t happen often.
Worst case example:
You pass a rich student, and with his wet private ticket, he takes his brand new SR22 with his wife and kid and plows it into a mountain the next week. He was a high earner, and now his remaining kid doesn’t have a family. His estate lawyers up and and is lookin to start slinging lawsuits. You are one of many defendants. Well, now the attorney will have to prove that your instruction contributed to the accident, which is an uphill battle. If you document and save your lessons and play it by the book, you have a strong defense. The plaintiff, in this case that is the estate, has the burden of proof, unless you clearly pencil whipped his checkride sign off, there won’t be a lot of proof. You taught him how to read a VFR map, pilotage and dead reckoning, so where’s the proof that you contributed in the crash? Did he fly into the clouds? Well, you taught him how to read forecasts, METARS, VFR airspace requirements, hell you taught him how to get himself out of the cloud if he accidentally flew into one. It’s all there in your lesson plans which you’ve kept and check off.

Ok so lets say the attorney sues anyway in this scenario just to force you to put money on the table to get out of the suit. This DOES happen. This is where your insurance policy comes in(get one). A liability policy also covers defense costs in addition to the liability limit. So if you have 1 million in limits, they will ALSO pay to defend you should you get sued. Plaintiff attorney knows that he will have a tough time with burden of proof, so he takes a small amount, say, $10,000 to go away. The meter is running on his end as well. Unless he has an ironclad case, he won’t spend time(and plaintiff’s money)on a losing effort.

The real world CFI liability is gear up landings. Instructor is sitting there with a student in his own plane and they belly it in. Who’s PIC? What was the nature of the instruction? But in those cases there usually comparative fault and your insurance policy(you have one, right?) will cover your arse if need be.

Please- instruct, enjoy, but get a simple liability policy. Speak with a broker for real advice. Aopa has a broker division. I do know that AIG Aviation offers instructor policies(not to be confused with USAIG, a separate, strictly aviation insurance company).
 
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Geosync said:
As an aviation claims adjuster I can add my 2 cents. As mentioned in the thread, although the worst case scenario is always possible, in reality it doesn’t happen often.
Worst case example:
You pass a rich student, and with his wet private ticket, he takes his brand new SR22 with his wife and kid and plows it into a mountain the next week. He was a high earner, and now his remaining kid doesn’t have a family. His estate lawyers up and and is lookin to start slinging lawsuits. You are one of many defendants. Well, now the attorney will have to prove that your instruction contributed to the accident, which is an uphill battle. If you document and save your lessons and play it by the book, you have a strong defense. The plaintiff, in this case that is the estate, has the burden of proof, unless you clearly pencil whipped his checkride sign off, there won’t be a lot of proof. You taught him how to read a VFR map, pilotage and dead reckoning, so where’s the proof that you contributed in the crash? Did he fly into the clouds? Well, you taught him how to read forecasts, METARS, VFR airspace requirements, hell you taught him how to get himself out of the cloud if he accidentally flew into one. It’s all there in your lesson plans which you’ve kept and check off.

Ok so lets say the attorney sues anyway in this scenario just to force you to put money on the table to get out of the suit. This DOES happen. This is where your insurance policy comes in(get one). A liability policy also covers defense costs in addition to the liability limit. So if you have 1 million in limits, they will ALSO pay to defend you should you get sued. Plaintiff attorney knows that he will have a tough time with burden of proof, so he takes a small amount, say, $10,000 to go away. The meter is running on his end as well. Unless he has an ironclad case, he won’t spend time(and plaintiff’s money)on a losing effort.

The real world CFI liability is gear up landings. Instructor is sitting there with a student in his own plane and they belly it in. Who’s PIC? What was the nature of the instruction? But in those cases there usually comparative fault and your insurance policy(you have one, right?) will cover your arse if need be.

Please- instruct, enjoy, but get a simple liability policy. Speak with a broker for real advice. Aopa has a broker division. I do know that AIG Aviation offers instructor policies(not to be confused with USAIG, a separate, strictly aviation insurance company).
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Great advice. Mid-air collisions, ground incidents and fuel exhaustion are far more common than a lawsuit by a former student. Just last month an Archer went down near my home airport due to fuel exhaustion. A CFI was on board, although it being claimed that it was not an instructional flight. Nevertheless, that CFI has much to be concerned about.
 
sarangan said:
Great advice. Mid-air collisions, ground incidents and fuel exhaustion are far more common than a lawsuit by a former student. Just last month an Archer went down near my home airport due to fuel exhaustion. A CFI was on board, although it being claimed that it was not an instructional flight. Nevertheless, that CFI has much to be concerned about.
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And he should get his hand slapped for running out of fuel.

I know two people who have run out of fuel, but they both lived, one had no injuries, the other just minor. Actually don't know any pilots personally who have ever had any engine failures in flight, except those two morons who simply ran out of gas.
If i were going to instruct, the only part that would make me even for a second worry about a lawsuit, is float training. Pretty hard to see what is waiting there 1 inch under the water in some places. Flying on floats is definitely the best thing ever for me as far as flying goes. Also the most challenging and dangerous thing. Logs, rocks, waves, nasty buggers for sure!
 
Geosync said:
As an aviation claims adjuster I can add my 2 cents. As mentioned in the thread, although the worst case scenario is always possible, in reality it doesn’t happen often.
Worst case example:
You pass a rich student, and with his wet private ticket, he takes his brand new SR22 with his wife and kid and plows it into a mountain the next week. He was a high earner, and now his remaining kid doesn’t have a family. His estate lawyers up and and is lookin to start slinging lawsuits. You are one of many defendants. Well, now the attorney will have to prove that your instruction contributed to the accident, which is an uphill battle. If you document and save your lessons and play it by the book, you have a strong defense. The plaintiff, in this case that is the estate, has the burden of proof, unless you clearly pencil whipped his checkride sign off, there won’t be a lot of proof. You taught him how to read a VFR map, pilotage and dead reckoning, so where’s the proof that you contributed in the crash? Did he fly into the clouds? Well, you taught him how to read forecasts, METARS, VFR airspace requirements, hell you taught him how to get himself out of the cloud if he accidentally flew into one. It’s all there in your lesson plans which you’ve kept and check off.

Ok so lets say the attorney sues anyway in this scenario just to force you to put money on the table to get out of the suit. This DOES happen. This is where your insurance policy comes in(get one). A liability policy also covers defense costs in addition to the liability limit. So if you have 1 million in limits, they will ALSO pay to defend you should you get sued. Plaintiff attorney knows that he will have a tough time with burden of proof, so he takes a small amount, say, $10,000 to go away. The meter is running on his end as well. Unless he has an ironclad case, he won’t spend time(and plaintiff’s money)on a losing effort.

The real world CFI liability is gear up landings. Instructor is sitting there with a student in his own plane and they belly it in. Who’s PIC? What was the nature of the instruction? But in those cases there usually comparative fault and your insurance policy(you have one, right?) will cover your arse if need be.

Please- instruct, enjoy, but get a simple liability policy. Speak with a broker for real advice. Aopa has a broker division. I do know that AIG Aviation offers instructor policies(not to be confused with USAIG, a separate, strictly aviation insurance company).
Click to expand...
Thank you for that great explanation of the reality of these claims from an adjuster point of view. It parallels the answer I give to CFI friends. I get this question quite a bit, so I hope you don't mind if I save this answer.
 
IK04 said:
Is there a consolidated list posted somewhere of insurers who cover flight instructors?

Now that all my certs are current and I am an independent CFI, I'll be shopping for some coverage.

This? https://www.starrlink.com/public/sano?dib=342&diu=2692&gb=http://www.air-pros.com/

Or maybe this? https://air-pros.com/
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Most any aviation insurance broker will have access to policies. And the two instructor organizations, NAFI and SAFE, have decent discounted sponsored policies. Your link is to the one SAFE sponsors and is the one I use.
 
bradg33 said:
Being named in wrongful death lawsuit, even if you have a good defense, can bankrupt most people. The cost of defense can be staggering.
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Yes!! Remember that our tort system is primarily for the benefit of the attorneys. Any justice is a distant consideration.
 
midlifeflyer said:
Thank you for that great explanation of the reality of these claims from an adjuster point of view. It parallels the answer I give to CFI friends. I get this question quite a bit, so I hope you don't mind if I save this answer.
Click to expand...
No problem!
 
sarangan said:
Once you accept the risks that come with Part 91 flying, I don't believe CFI liability is any greater than the overall liability in flying. The risks of losing an engine and crashing into someone's property is probably greater than an ex-student suing you. Just like you can be a better pilot through better training, you can also reduce CFI liability by keeping thorough training records and a detailed syllabus. Be conservative in who you sign off. Develop a reputation of being tough, and be selective in who you accept as students. I doubt there are many CFIs who gave up instructing due to fear or litigation, but continued to fly on their own. But I do know pilots who gave up flying altogether due to the liability and risks.
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I don’t know if it is the same people but find it odd that when the subject is something like “when to take your family up after getting PPL” a lot of folks posted about how “flying is a calculated risk” and how “driving a car is dangerous too” etc. and kind of dismissing the new PPL holders trepidation about taking up their dearest and nearest.

But being sued is seen as too high a risk.

I don’t know, but some here have mentioned how rare it is and how rarely they can win.

Anyone can sue anyone for anything...but normally the system works that frivolous and ridiculous lawsuits get thrown out. Have there been issues with drivers ed teachers, driving school teachers? I don’t know. It would be exactly the same principle though. First off, the student driver learns from the teacher, but gets certified by the DMV, and if they then drive recklessly does the family ever or often sue the original driver, or even the DMV?

Do we have a lot of people deciding not to work in a driving school for fear of lawsuits?
of course, it is up to each qualified person to decide on the risk factor and make their own decisions. But I am surprised that people that see the risk of flying as acceptable but the risk of lawsuits as way too high.
 
Again, I say that it's a simple risk-matrix consideration. It's unlikely that something litigation-worthy will happen. But if it does, would it have been worth your time to plan for it in advance? Even if you win a nasty lawsuit, the expenses can be massive. Is an LLC and a waiver really going to help you?
 
write-stuff said:
Again, I say that it's a simple risk-matrix consideration. It's unlikely that something litigation-worthy will happen. But if it does, would it have been worth your time to plan for it in advance? Even if you win a nasty lawsuit, the expenses can be massive. Is an LLC and a waiver really going to help you?
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For a CFI who is personally giving the instruction, an LLC will do absolutely zero to protect from personal liability.
 
Two of my close friends, both retired from their working careers, maintain their CFII ratings current. They limit their instruction to flight reviews and IPCs for friends they've flown with for years. The reason? Liability.
 
Geosync said:
As an aviation claims adjuster I can add my 2 cents. As mentioned in the thread, although the worst case scenario is always possible, in reality it doesn’t happen often.
Worst case example:
You pass a rich student, and with his wet private ticket, he takes his brand new SR22 with his wife and kid and plows it into a mountain the next week. He was a high earner, and now his remaining kid doesn’t have a family. His estate lawyers up and and is lookin to start slinging lawsuits. You are one of many defendants. Well, now the attorney will have to prove that your instruction contributed to the accident, which is an uphill battle. If you document and save your lessons and play it by the book, you have a strong defense. The plaintiff, in this case that is the estate, has the burden of proof, unless you clearly pencil whipped his checkride sign off, there won’t be a lot of proof. You taught him how to read a VFR map, pilotage and dead reckoning, so where’s the proof that you contributed in the crash? Did he fly into the clouds? Well, you taught him how to read forecasts, METARS, VFR airspace requirements, hell you taught him how to get himself out of the cloud if he accidentally flew into one. It’s all there in your lesson plans which you’ve kept and check off.

Ok so lets say the attorney sues anyway in this scenario just to force you to put money on the table to get out of the suit. This DOES happen. This is where your insurance policy comes in(get one). A liability policy also covers defense costs in addition to the liability limit. So if you have 1 million in limits, they will ALSO pay to defend you should you get sued. Plaintiff attorney knows that he will have a tough time with burden of proof, so he takes a small amount, say, $10,000 to go away. The meter is running on his end as well. Unless he has an ironclad case, he won’t spend time(and plaintiff’s money)on a losing effort.

The real world CFI liability is gear up landings. Instructor is sitting there with a student in his own plane and they belly it in. Who’s PIC? What was the nature of the instruction? But in those cases there usually comparative fault and your insurance policy(you have one, right?) will cover your arse if need be.

Please- instruct, enjoy, but get a simple liability policy. Speak with a broker for real advice. Aopa has a broker division. I do know that AIG Aviation offers instructor policies(not to be confused with USAIG, a separate, strictly aviation insurance company).
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I too appreciate your will worded response. If I may:

Plaintiff attorney knows that he will have a tough time with burden of proof, so he takes a small amount, say, $10,000 to go away.
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I'm sure I'm not the only one annoyed by this. To us non-attorney types this reads like extortion. You didn't do anything wrong, but you should still cough up a years flying budget?

Plaintiff has no case, so he "just" takes $10k. As the defense, why cave to that? See you in court a**hole, where I'll be suing for my costs.
 
aftCG said:
Plaintiff has no case, so he "just" takes $10k. As the defense, why cave to that? See you in court a**hole, where I'll be suing for my costs.
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Because fighting it could cost many multiples of $10k, and depending on the state, you may be totally unable to recover your fees (and even if you can, that's just a judgment that you're on your own to actually collect upon).
 
Geosync said:
As an aviation claims adjuster I can add my 2 cents. As mentioned in the thread, although the worst case scenario is always possible, in reality it doesn’t happen often.
Worst case example:
You pass a rich student, and with his wet private ticket, he takes his brand new SR22 with his wife and kid and plows it into a mountain the next week. He was a high earner, and now his remaining kid doesn’t have a family. His estate lawyers up and and is lookin to start slinging lawsuits. You are one of many defendants. Well, now the attorney will have to prove that your instruction contributed to the accident, which is an uphill battle. If you document and save your lessons and play it by the book, you have a strong defense. The plaintiff, in this case that is the estate, has the burden of proof, unless you clearly pencil whipped his checkride sign off, there won’t be a lot of proof. You taught him how to read a VFR map, pilotage and dead reckoning, so where’s the proof that you contributed in the crash? Did he fly into the clouds? Well, you taught him how to read forecasts, METARS, VFR airspace requirements, hell you taught him how to get himself out of the cloud if he accidentally flew into one. It’s all there in your lesson plans which you’ve kept and check off.

Ok so lets say the attorney sues anyway in this scenario just to force you to put money on the table to get out of the suit. This DOES happen. This is where your insurance policy comes in(get one). A liability policy also covers defense costs in addition to the liability limit. So if you have 1 million in limits, they will ALSO pay to defend you should you get sued. Plaintiff attorney knows that he will have a tough time with burden of proof, so he takes a small amount, say, $10,000 to go away. The meter is running on his end as well. Unless he has an ironclad case, he won’t spend time(and plaintiff’s money)on a losing effort.

The real world CFI liability is gear up landings. Instructor is sitting there with a student in his own plane and they belly it in. Who’s PIC? What was the nature of the instruction? But in those cases there usually comparative fault and your insurance policy(you have one, right?) will cover your arse if need be.

Please- instruct, enjoy, but get a simple liability policy. Speak with a broker for real advice. Aopa has a broker division. I do know that AIG Aviation offers instructor policies(not to be confused with USAIG, a separate, strictly aviation insurance company).
Click to expand...

Great advice and adding a piece to the post.

Post accident everybody possible will get invited to court. The lawyers will shake down everyone with their insurance buying them out. At the end if you are the smuck with no assets, they will let you go, but you want the insurance to pay your lawyer.
 
I think the LLC issue is that people think (and hope) that it is a cheap way to get protection. And it seems to be a pretty widely held belief. As long as nothing happens, you don't have to test the theory. But rather than run that experiment in the wild, get insurance. It undoubtedly works better.
 
The examiner who passed said pilot, and gave them a license, is far more likely to be sued than the instructor anyway.
 
Clip4 said:
True, but it may protect your assets you have in the LLC if it is a partnership.
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An asset held by an LLC might protect that asset in some states. Complicated question best answered by a good estate planning/asset protection attorney.
 
LongRoadBob said:
I don’t know if it is the same people but find it odd that when the subject is something like “when to take your family up after getting PPL” a lot of folks posted about how “flying is a calculated risk” and how “driving a car is dangerous too” etc. and kind of dismissing the new PPL holders trepidation about taking up their dearest and nearest.

But being sued is seen as too high a risk.

I don’t know, but some here have mentioned how rare it is and how rarely they can win.

Anyone can sue anyone for anything...but normally the system works that frivolous and ridiculous lawsuits get thrown out. Have there been issues with drivers ed teachers, driving school teachers? I don’t know. It would be exactly the same principle though. First off, the student driver learns from the teacher, but gets certified by the DMV, and if they then drive recklessly does the family ever or often sue the original driver, or even the DMV?

Do we have a lot of people deciding not to work in a driving school for fear of lawsuits?
of course, it is up to each qualified person to decide on the risk factor and make their own decisions. But I am surprised that people that see the risk of flying as acceptable but the risk of lawsuits as way too high.
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I have often been baffled by the same observation regarding risk assessment.

i think the fear of being sued is the perception of not being in control. We control risks in the airplane. Not so much when it comes to others actions
 
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