too much faith in instructors?

ajstoner21

ajstoner21

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This might be a dumb question, but after reading threads about max demonstrated crosswind, i had this come to mind.

Many seem to say "oh, if I'm with an instructor, let's go. Great practice". I'm probably one of them. I'm not saying instructors shouldn't be able to handle crosswinds, but this might apply to other situations.

Do we put too much faith in instructors to come to our rescue? Do we get a false sense of confidence flying with an instructor knowing/thinking he is a safety net?

Just curious what others think.
 
I'm sure a lot of pilots feel the false comfort of the CFI as safety net. Even other instructors sometimes do.

I try to keep that in mind. I was on a business trip to LA and decided on a free afternoon to rent a plane and a CFI out of KSMO to fly to Catalina Island. The day was windy and blustery; not the best of weather but good for the purpose of seeing why some FBOs require a "Catalina checkout."

When I got to the FBO, the CFI and I reviewed the weather together. He said, "it's not that nice out but if you want to go, let's go." I replied, "OK so long as we remember that there's nothing as dangerous in an airplane than 2 CFIs."

We went and had a great time, even though were were the only airplane there that day. The safety factor was me not assuming he knew what he was doing because he was a CFI. And vice versa.
 
I've spent a lot more time flying my airplane than my go-to instructor. If I don't feel I can do it I wouldn't automatically trust him to do so.
 
ajstoner21 said:
Do we put too much faith in instructors to come to our rescue? Do we get a false sense of confidence flying with an instructor knowing/thinking he is a safety net?
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Yes, and I learned that very early when the CFI didn't save my botched wheel landing where I bounced and curled the prop before we went around. Luckily the airplane made it around the pattern.
 
As with all things aviation, much depends on relevant experience. If the instructor has multiple times your experience in type, or very similar types, you can probably expect a level of competence. If it's unique and new to him/her, maybe not so much.
 
Everskyward said:
Yes, and I learned that very early when the CFI didn't save my botched wheel landing where I bounced and curled the prop before we went around. Luckily the airplane made it around the pattern.
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That's one of the trickiest aspects of instructing....balancing between being a "Grabby Gary" constantly taking the controls from the student, and letting them learn from their mistakes...without dinging the airplane. It can be a tough balance to strike.
 
I learned that a CFI will let you land short during night instruction and break your plane.
 
LDJones said:
That's one of the trickiest aspects of instructing....balancing between being a "Grabby Gary" constantly taking the controls from the student, and letting them learn from their mistakes...without dinging the airplane. It can be a tough balance to strike.
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The CFI was a new instructor and didn't have that much TW experience, especially from the back seat (it was a Citabria). But then everyone starts out inexperienced and you're not going to get any if someone doesn't give you a chance.
 
I flew with an instructor every time the opportunity arose, my instructor became my friend over the years. Two heads are always better than one if things get iffy. Even though I had long since had my ticket, I always seemed to learn something from him. He and I are both getting on in years but it never affected our flying as far as I can recall.

Crosswinds, as long as they are within the limits of your airplane, are not any sort of a big deal, they just make for a more complicated landing since you have to actually employ your feet on the rudder from time to time as well as fiddle with the ailerons. It's a coordination thing.

I would go out of my way to go flying on good crosswind days, they are actually kind of fun when it occurs to you it is just another landing, that requires a little more of your attention.

We should master landing under all conditions your POH agrees with, even gusting crosswinds.

A current CFI should have no problem with crosswinds that are within limits.

-John
 
LDJones said:
As with all things aviation, much depends on relevant experience. If the instructor has multiple times your experience in type, or very similar types, you can probably expect a level of competence. If it's unique and new to him/her, maybe not so much.
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This is key....

At my level, every instructor has more experience than I do (still a tad under 250 hours). And every instructor has an instrument rating and commercial certificate I don't have.

But even so, I try not to assume things. If conditions look like they might deteriorate, I ask the instructor if he's instrument current and confident to shoot an approach in somewhat worse than expected conditions. I've had some of my most valuable training in MVFR that I wouldn't have gone out in solo, though I've never yet had to take advantage of the instructor's instrument rating.

Even so, I've had an instructor screw up. Not seriously, but it did break the plane (ate a tire) when he stomped on the brakes as I tried to threshold brake during an unplanned aborted takeoff. We had the chat about positive exchange of control (abbreviated during emergencies, but NOT absent -- and an "I got it" would suffice) at my insistence after that. Should have been before.

A primary student has to trust the instructor to a very large extent, especially at first. More advanced, less so.
 
I think also, that it's incumbent on the CFI to be brutally honest with themselves regarding their proficiency in an aircraft and to say when they need a tune up in a type that is new to them. I expect myself to be able to competently fly many aircraft of a certain level but I wouldn't presume to teach in them till I had gained what I consider a level of experience that qualifies as truly competent.

Not all instructors are at the same level and as long as they are willing to communicate honestly about their ability then I'd trust them.
 
Interesting topic. I'm in the process of shopping for an instructor to do some spin training with in a 172 for the purpose of getting my spin endorsement (required for CFI with single engine airplane). Most of the local spin experts fly smaller aerobatic aircraft that my big self will have a hard time folding into. As such, when talking to potential instructors, I can tell pretty quickly whether I want to do the training with them based on their enthusiasm to do the spin airwork. Most of the instructors at flight schools with a 172 to rent haven't done a spin since they did the endorsement themselves. I appreciated the instructors who were honest and admitted they were uncomfortable giving the training.

That said, while I'm sure spins in decathalons are awesome, I think there's value in doing them in the type of planes you'll be instructing in.
 
Jeanie said:
I think also, that it's incumbent on the CFI to be brutally honest with themselves regarding their proficiency in an aircraft and to say when they need a tune up in a type that is new to them. I expect myself to be able to competently fly many aircraft of a certain level but I wouldn't presume to teach in them till I had gained what I consider a level of experience that qualifies as truly competent.

Not all instructors are at the same level and as long as they are willing to communicate honestly about their ability then I'd trust them.
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This is a big one, I think. If someone came to me in a Cessna (not a 150/2!) and said can we do a BFR today in this wind? 20kts total wind with 12-15 crosswind... I'd say yep absolutely. If someone came to me in a Cirrus and asked the same thing the same day I'd say no because I only have 3 hours in Cirrus and am not comfortable there yet. If I'm not confident in saving my own bacon, how can I possibly provide you adequate instruction? It's being honest, upfront and humble. We're CFIs, which means we're human.
 
I had good instructors early on that took me out in 25 knots of crosswind in a 172 - I handled it so well he let me solo that day in the winds. I've never been scared of wind at all - it's just another landing. I recall one day I was landing my 172 with 4 people in it down at Mustang Island and I had my rudder pedal all the way to the stop. I just kept on trucking, and eventually the gust lulled enough to that full rudder was enough to point me straight.

The guy I had flying with me (2 girls in the back) was a student pilot at the time and thought that was the coolest thing he had ever seen.
 
If I'm not sure about something then I just ask Jesse. We have about the same number of hours (within 100 or so) but he is more apt than I am and probably always will be
 
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I've yet to have an airplane get bent on my watch instructing. I can certainly say with confidence that I've prevented many many airplanes from getting bent. Could it happen someday? Sure. But overall I've helped a hell of a lot more then I've ever hurt.
 
reminds of a story.i was flying with my dad who is a CFI and a pilot for delta. we were doing a vfr x country for my PPL traininng from KFRG to KMPO. we were in a 172/U and while en route in pennsylvania. i lost one of the checkpoints and my timing went out the window. we were getting a little low on gas with about a quarter left and i knew i was lost. i immediately looked at my dad and he just looked at me and folded his arms. so i started to climb to get a better view of the ground and it was a very clear day. after about 10 mnutes of circling i was about to divert to wilkes barre but found a racetrack that was on the sectional and started flying on a heading that was approximately from the racetrack to the airport. i eventually found the airport but learned not to rely on my dad to bail me out. obviously if we were very low on fuel he would have helped but he wanted to see how i handled the situation.
 
steingar said:
I've spent a lot more time flying my airplane than my go-to instructor. If I don't feel I can do it I wouldn't automatically trust him to do so.
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This.

Especially when one has mods that affect crosswind handling (in my case, VGs).
 
Instructors like pilots come in all shapes, favors, and sizes. In other words they all have there strengths and weaknesses. Unfortunately, with like everything in the world they run the gamut from worser than the worse to better than the best and everything in between, with most being about average. Furthermore, there needs to be a rapport between student and instructor, without which even the best instructor will be the worse for that particular student.

Whether we are on our first discovery flight with no knowledge, or on our accident free 30,000th hour we are all still students of aviation. It is implicit in that learning process to improve with time, but it is also implicit in that learning process to talk up if something does not make sense, or does not seem right. We all make mistakes, and I think the worse one is not talking up when something seems wrong. You cannot be intimidated, or be in such awe of either your instructors, or students not to be able to do this, and if you cannot do that then it is time for a new paradigm or a change of venue.
 
Since a large number of CFIs intend to progress to other jobs I believe they have more at stake than me. As such I will merely point out possible issues and ask "are you sure?" prior to something I'm uncomfortable with unless it will cause the adminstrator to violate me.
 
Beyond initial training, I've never felt the need to get a CFI for x-wind practice, or other. Maybe because I grew up flying a Cessna 150 (at least 200 hours) in the windy midwest, and while still young and invincible, did every possible stupid thing in the wind I could think of.
 
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I worked at a (tailwheel) flight school where more than one airplane got bent up because the instructor wasn't up to speed in the airplane. And, I admit to having had a couple of bad experiences with (other instructor's) students. One that springs to mind: I was asked by a fellow instructor to give an instrument student a phase check. The instructor spoke very highly of the student's skill level...well, I agreed to fly with her and it just so happened the day we scheduled was sort of marginal VFR weather. After talking to the woman student about her abilities, (she was ready for her check ride, in her own estimation) we filed a flight plan and launched. She did well - until we went IMC, then it was quickly evident that her confidence vanished, and she was just overwhelmed. It wasn't a situation I could just talk her through, so I just took the controls and returned to the by this time almost at mins airport. She was comforted by my performing the flying...But if she only knew how much I was kicking myself for getting in the ridiculous situation of having to stare cross-panel, IMC and conduct an approach almost to mins...WITH A STUDENT I DIDN'T KNOW! Never again in IMC.
 
j1b3h0 said:
But if she only knew how much I was kicking myself for getting in the ridiculous situation of having to stare cross-panel, IMC and conduct an approach almost to mins...WITH A STUDENT I DIDN'T KNOW! Never again in IMC.
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What is the big deal with that? As an active instrument instructor that's a normal situation and not something that would bother me. If the student were overwhelmed I would just shed some of their workload until they were able to catch up to the game and proceed from there. I can't think of a single time I've had to just take over all responsibility. It's your job to figure out how to get the situation back to one that is of value to the paying student.

It sounds to me like you're not comfortable instructing in actual. It's very common for nearly-ready students to get overwhelmed when they hit IMC for the first time. Towards the end of instrument training all my students have a "wake up" moment that's very upsetting for them such as that. It's how you learn.
 
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j1b3h0 said:
I worked at a (tailwheel) flight school where more than one airplane got bent up because the instructor wasn't up to speed in the airplane. And, I admit to having had a couple of bad experiences with (other instructor's) students. One that springs to mind: I was asked by a fellow instructor to give an instrument student a phase check. The instructor spoke very highly of the student's skill level...well, I agreed to fly with her and it just so happened the day we scheduled was sort of marginal VFR weather. After talking to the woman student about her abilities, (she was ready for her check ride, in her own estimation) we filed a flight plan and launched. She did well - until we went IMC, then it was quickly evident that her confidence vanished, and she was just overwhelmed. It wasn't a situation I could just talk her through, so I just took the controls and returned to the by this time almost at mins airport. She was comforted by my performing the flying...But if she only knew how much I was kicking myself for getting in the ridiculous situation of having to stare cross-panel, IMC and conduct an approach almost to mins...WITH A STUDENT I DIDN'T KNOW! Never again in IMC.
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Passed CFI comfort level too. YIKES!
 
j1b3h0 said:
I worked at a (tailwheel) flight school where more than one airplane got bent up because the instructor wasn't up to speed in the airplane. And, I admit to having had a couple of bad experiences with (other instructor's) students. One that springs to mind: I was asked by a fellow instructor to give an instrument student a phase check. The instructor spoke very highly of the student's skill level...well, I agreed to fly with her and it just so happened the day we scheduled was sort of marginal VFR weather. After talking to the woman student about her abilities, (she was ready for her check ride, in her own estimation) we filed a flight plan and launched. She did well - until we went IMC, then it was quickly evident that her confidence vanished, and she was just overwhelmed. It wasn't a situation I could just talk her through, so I just took the controls and returned to the by this time almost at mins airport. She was comforted by my performing the flying...But if she only knew how much I was kicking myself for getting in the ridiculous situation of having to stare cross-panel, IMC and conduct an approach almost to mins...WITH A STUDENT I DIDN'T KNOW! Never again in IMC.
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I think I know which flight school that is.....

When does it EVER get down to minimums at RHV? Usually the deck sits there at 2000 feet. And if that really was a problem, you should have landed a couple of miles away at SJC, where they have an ILS and much lower minimums.
 
MAKG1 said:
I think I know which flight school that is.....

When does it EVER get down to minimums at RHV? Usually the deck sits there at 2000 feet. And if that really was a problem, you should have landed a couple of miles away at SJC, where they have an ILS and much lower minimums.
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If an instructor is not comfortable conducting an approach to minimums to their home airport where they teach regardless of the skill level of the person in the left seat they should not be giving instrument instruction and did the student a serious disservice.
 
jesse said:
If an instructor is not comfortable conducting an approach to minimums to their home airport where they teach regardless of the skill level of the person in the left seat they should not be giving instrument instruction and did the student a serious disservice.
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That is why my first instructor and I had to part ways. He was a fantastic pilot, but a terrible instrument pilot. Horrible. Barely understood the basics. Found out shortly after that he had to re-do part of his IPC because it was so bad. Not to mention my 1.2 hours of actual are more than he has :eek:
 
jesse said:
What is the big deal with that? As an active instrument instructor that's a normal situation and not something that would bother me. If the student were overwhelmed I would just shed some of their workload until they were able to catch up to the game and proceed from there. I can't think of a single time I've had to just take over all responsibility. It's your job to figure out how to get the situation back to one that is of value to the paying student.

It sounds to me like you're not comfortable instructing in actual. It's very common for nearly-ready students to get overwhelmed when they hit IMC for the first time. Towards the end of instrument training all my students have a "wake up" moment that's very upsetting for them such as that. It's how you learn.[/QUOTE

You're right, Jesse. I'm uncomfortable IMC with an unfamiliar student, using their NOS charts in deteriorating weather. Though I personally got a wx briefing, I really thought we'd just spend a few minutes at most IMC. Although I was an ATP at the time (mid 1980s) the kind of instrument flying I was used to doing was in a nice, safe part 135 Chieftain with an HSI, not parallax flying a beater 172 with Sears best gyros. The situation - the students' performance was poor enough that she could not comply with standard IFR altitude/heading parameters, turbulent IMC during rush hour in the Bay Area was no time to teach her without risking a violation. If I had it to do over I would simply reschedule. Part of my regret for doing that flight is for taking someone else's word for the students' skill level. I like to witness such things first hand before I venture IMC.
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j1b3h0 said:
jesse said:
What is the big deal with that? As an active instrument instructor that's a normal situation and not something that would bother me. If the student were overwhelmed I would just shed some of their workload until they were able to catch up to the game and proceed from there. I can't think of a single time I've had to just take over all responsibility. It's your job to figure out how to get the situation back to one that is of value to the paying student.

It sounds to me like you're not comfortable instructing in actual. It's very common for nearly-ready students to get overwhelmed when they hit IMC for the first time. Towards the end of instrument training all my students have a "wake up" moment that's very upsetting for them such as that. It's how you learn.[/QUOTE

You're right, Jesse. I'm uncomfortable IMC with an unfamiliar student, using their NOS charts in deteriorating weather. Though I personally got a wx briefing, I really thought we'd just spend a few minutes at most IMC. Although I was an ATP at the time (mid 1980s) the kind of instrument flying I was used to doing was in a nice, safe part 135 Chieftain with an HSI, not parallax flying a beater 172 with Sears best gyros. The situation - the students' performance was poor enough that she could not comply with standard IFR altitude/heading parameters, turbulent IMC during rush hour in the Bay Area was no time to teach her without risking a violation. If I had it to do over I would simply reschedule. Part of my regret for doing that flight is for taking someone else's word for the students' skill level. I like to witness such things first hand before I venture IMC.
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It had nothing to do with the students skill level or the instructor saying what they're skill level is. They're still a student and as a result they will make mistakes and do student-like things. So will certificated instrument pilots.

If you are being hired as an instructor you must be comfortable being one. It sounds like you weren't since the mere notion of looking at the instruments on the other side of the panel was something that apparently bothered you.

The only problem is that you weren't proficient instructing in instrument conditions and you weren't properly prepared for the flight.

Just my opinion :)
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I had 10 CFII's during the slow road toward my instrument rating and not a one ventured into IMC. Not a one suggested it and the couple times I asked I was advised it was not necessary. I was too naive to know I should have looked for actual and a CFII comfortable in it.
 
jesse said:
j1b3h0 said:
It had nothing to do with the students skill level or the instructor saying what they're skill level is. They're still a student and as a result they will make mistakes and do student-like things. So will certificated instrument pilots.

If you are being hired as an instructor you must be comfortable being one. It sounds like you weren't since the mere notion of looking at the instruments on the other side of the panel was something that apparently bothered you.

The only problem is that you weren't proficient instructing in instrument conditions and you weren't properly prepared for the flight.

Just my opinion :)
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Question, Jesse: Do you take first-hour students to the pattern for landing practice? Do you take new instrument students IMC? If so, I'll watch for the NOTAM. Most instructors will usually postpone those exercises until fundamental skills have been demonstrated by their students, because it's pointless to ask the student to do things they're so unprepared to do. I posit that it's no different when an instrument student is prematurely thrust into IMC; the only thing learned is they can't grab their butt with both hands. Otherwise, guilty as charged: I don't normally fly IMC from a seat opposite the instrument panel, despite having sent more than 40 students for successful FAA check rides, many of them instrument ratings. So, forgive me if I bristle at the sanctimony.
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j1b3h0 said:
Question, Jesse: Do you take first-hour students to the pattern for landing practice? Do you take new instrument students IMC? If so, I'll watch for the NOTAM. Most instructors will usually postpone those exercises until fundamental skills have been demonstrated by their students, because it's pointless to ask the student to do things they're so unprepared to do. I posit that it's no different when an instrument student is prematurely thrust into IMC; the only thing learned is they can't grab their butt with both hands. Otherwise, guilty as charged: I don't normally fly IMC from a seat opposite the instrument panel, despite having sent more than 40 students for successful FAA check rides, many of them instrument ratings. So, forgive me if I bristle at the sanctimony.
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Do I intentionally throw students in over their head? No I do not (most of the time, there are times where it's appropriate).

Have I had first instrument students in IMC? Yes on many occasions. As long as you watch how much workload they are taking on there is no reason you can't fly with them and work on the fundamentals in IMC. The key is to handle the workload and make sure they're just taking on small blocks and learning. I simply ask for a block of airspace and we work on fundamentals in that airspace. Why would there be a NOTAM issued over this?

In fact I believe that Nate (denverpilot on this board)'s first instrument lesson with me involved us going missed at 200 ft on a ILS a few times before we got in. The ground visiblity was so limited that taxing was a challenge. Did this flight hurt his training? Did he feel it was extremely unsafe? I doubt it - but you'd have to ask him. I did not takeover I simply gave him a workload that I thought he was capable of handling, picked up the rest myself, and monitored the situation.

At the end of the day weather can get worse (and that's what happened above and in your case). If you cannot handle weather getting worse in the right seat you shouldn't be taking on the responsibilities of instrument instructor.

j1b3h0 said:
You're right, Jesse. I'm uncomfortable IMC with an unfamiliar student, using their NOS charts in deteriorating weather.
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There is a difference between you feeling that a situation is not going to result in positive learning for the student and you being unable to safely operate in those conditions. In this case you chose to depart in conditions you were not comfortable instructing in as a flight instructor. That is not the students fault. That is not the other instructors fault. That is completely your fault.

If someone is paying me to be an instructor they are expecting me to have a certain level of skill and proficiency. If I am not capable of meeting those expectations you can damn well expect that I shouldn't be flying with them.

Do you think that student climbed in the airplane with you that day knowing that you were uncomfortable flying in IMC from the right seat in that airplane? If she would have known that do you think she would have decided to fly with you?
 
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One of the most deadly situations in flying is when you have 2 or 4 or 4 pilots on a trip together.

Read the nall report on accidents and you will be struck by how often really stupid things are done with more than one seasoned pilot on board an airplane. You ask yourself how could this be or why?

I think they each secretly feel safer with company and fly into situations they would not do themselves but have false confidence when with others.

Similar to some pilots flying modern technology aircraft will take a G500/autopilot airplane too close to Tstorms, ice or other situations they should not be in.

On top of that an instructor might get lulled into thinking he knows your level of competence but forget that you might not handle a quick change in situation due to gust of wind or some other imperfection.

I think flying duel with CFI is inherently dangerous for many reasons but the stats show it being pretty safe overall because we have a pretty good system but never take that system for granted.
 
jesse said:
Do I intentionally throw students in over their head? No I do not (most of the time, there are times where it's appropriate).

Have I had first instrument students in IMC? Yes on many occasions. As long as you watch how much workload they are taking on there is no reason you can't fly with them and work on the fundamentals in IMC. The key is to handle the workload and make sure they're just taking on small blocks and learning. I simply ask for a block of airspace and we work on fundamentals in that airspace. Why would there be a NOTAM issued over this?

In fact I believe that Nate (denverpilot on this board)'s first instrument lesson with me involved us going missed at 200 ft on a ILS a few times before we got in. The ground visiblity was so limited that taxing was a challenge. Did this flight hurt his training? Did he feel it was extremely unsafe? I doubt it - but you'd have to ask him. I did not takeover I simply gave him a workload that I thought he was capable of handling, picked up the rest myself, and monitored the situation.

At the end of the day weather can get worse (and that's what happened above and in your case). If you cannot handle weather getting worse in the right seat you shouldn't be taking on the responsibilities of instrument instructor.


There is a difference between you feeling that a situation is not going to result in positive learning for the student and you being unable to safely operate in those conditions. In this case you chose to depart in conditions you were not comfortable instructing in as a flight instructor. That is not the students fault. That is not the other instructors fault. That is completely your fault.

If someone is paying me to be an instructor they are expecting me to have a certain level of skill and proficiency. If I am not capable of meeting those expectations you can damn well expect that I shouldn't be flying with them.

Do you think that student climbed in the airplane with you that day knowing that you were uncomfortable flying in IMC from the right seat in that airplane? If she would have known that do you think she would have decided to fly with you?
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Try getting a block of airspace, IMC somewhere other than Lincoln Nebraska...It was over 30 years ago and I admitted learning a lesson in my first post on the matter, but you have 12,000 posts, so you must be right!
 
j1b3h0 said:
Try getting a block of airspace, IMC somewhere other than Lincoln Nebraska...It was over 30 years ago and I admitted learning a lesson in my first post on the matter, but you have 12,000 posts, so you must be right!
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Disagree with me if you'd like. If an instrument instructor is not comfortable flying right seat in IMC in an airplane I do not feel it is responsible for that instructor to act in the role of an instrument instructor in IMC with a student. I doubt many people would. I also find it particularly troublesome that the instructor blames the student for their own inadequacies.

As to my ability to get blocks of airspace I don't see how that is relevant. You asked if I'd take a no time student into IMC and I told you how I would do it. Getting blocks of airspace isn't particularly difficult in MOST of the country, btw. Even in some of the busiest airspace they'll be glad to let you sit in a hold if you'd like. I've crossed the country in IMC with students that haven't even finished their private yet and provided value to them while not touching the flight controls myself. You just have to figure out a plan that makes sense.

As to my post count..I didn't even look to see how many posts you have because I don't care and I had no idea how many posts I had. What does that have to do with this?

I think this is an important subject because instructors need to act responsibly and professionally and students need to learn how to find instructors who are capable of doing so.
 
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Jesse, there is a big difference between giving dual with a student wearing a view limiting device and conducting dual while IMC in busy airspace. Yet, there are times that it is appropriate to give your student a taste of the real world. As a former airline Line Check Airman, I don't need the 'actual', and would just as soon work out all the kinks with my student in VMC. It's just much safer.
 
j1b3h0 said:
Jesse, there is a big difference between giving dual with a student wearing a view limiting device and conducting dual while IMC in busy airspace. Yet, there are times that it is appropriate to give your student a taste of the real world. As a former airline Line Check Airman, I don't need the 'actual', and would just as soon work out all the kinks with my student in VMC. It's just much safer.
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Of course there is a big difference? Do you not think I don't do both? We're all comfortable with different things. I imagine you're a hell of a lot more comfortable in an airliner cockpit then I would be.

I am just as comfortable instructing a student regardless of their skill level in IMC as I am flying in IMC. I feel more at home in the right seat of the typical piston in IMC then I do about anything else. We all have our strong points.

My point above was that an instructor should not be blaming a student for falling behind in IMC when that student hired the instructor to be an instrument instructor and apparently was not proficient enough to do that successfully. Perhaps that's hard for you to swallow but that's just the reality of what you wrote.
 
I got my instrument rating at Pilot's Choice in Georgetown Texas. I did a fair amount of IMC during that training, including on my checkride from the fight school owner/DPE.
 
j1b3h0 said:
jesse said:
Question, Jesse: Do you take first-hour students to the pattern for landing practice? Do you take new instrument students IMC? If so, I'll watch for the NOTAM. Most instructors will usually postpone those exercises until fundamental skills have been demonstrated by their students, because it's pointless to ask the student to do things they're so unprepared to do. I posit that it's no different when an instrument student is prematurely thrust into IMC; the only thing learned is they can't grab their butt with both hands. Otherwise, guilty as charged: I don't normally fly IMC from a seat opposite the instrument panel, despite having sent more than 40 students for successful FAA check rides, many of them instrument ratings. So, forgive me if I bristle at the sanctimony.
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How do you NOT take a first-hour student in the pattern??! :dunno: :yikes:
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