Toe Brake Depressed on Landing

vdehart

vdehart

Pre-takeoff checklist
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vdehart
I just got my private pilot certificate three weeks ago. I did the majority of my training on a 150' wide 5000' long runway. Today I found myself landing on a 60' wide runway, which as you may imagine seems rather small compared to what I trained on. I lined up well with the centerline but I didn't realize I actually had my foot a little high on the left rudder pedal and was depressing the toe brake before the tires were down. As soon as this tire made contact the plane turned left pretty violently and required an immediate right rudder correction to straighten it all out. Lesson learned, I need to consciously keep my toes off the brakes until the plane is firmly on the ground. With so little runway on each side this little incident scared the heck out of me. And of course, when in doubt go around.
 
Imo try to grab an instructor and do some landings at small and grass strips. Heels on the floor notwithstanding, you would benefit greatly from exposure to different kinds of airports and approaches.
 
I saw a 2000+ hour commercial pilot land a 414A with her feet on the brakes, ruined 2 tires.:mad2: So, it happens to lots of people, just remember next time to keep your heels flat. I agree with the idea of getting a CFI and landing at some smaller strips, when you get comfortable with a 2500X35 strip, everything is a piece of cake. :D
 
One of my customers landed his Baron with his feet on the brakes. Killed two brand new tires on their first landing.
 
Make sure you are not dragging the brakes while taxiing also. It wears the brakes pads and heats them up something fearce. Hot brake pads don't work so good.
 
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Happened to me 3 times. Once on a 50' runway. Went in the grass @50mph.... I don't have toe brakes though.
 
vdehart said:
I just got my private pilot certificate three weeks ago. I did the majority of my training on a 150' wide 5000' long runway. Today I found myself landing on a 60' wide runway, which as you may imagine seems rather small compared to what I trained on. I lined up well with the centerline but I didn't realize I actually had my foot a little high on the left rudder pedal and was depressing the toe brake before the tires were down. As soon as this tire made contact the plane turned left pretty violently and required an immediate right rudder correction to straighten it all out. Lesson learned, I need to consciously keep my toes off the brakes until the plane is firmly on the ground. With so little runway on each side this little incident scared the heck out of me. And of course, when in doubt go around.
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Make flights to all of the uncontrolled fields around your home base. I learned a lot about landing while satisfying the insurance dual in this manner. No two runways are the same, approaches vary, terrain is different. My home field is 3000 x 75 and flat; some are uphill, some down; some have humps, some have low spots; you need to experience variety. It really helps.
 
Geico266 said:
Make sure you are not dragging the brakes while taxiing also. It wears the brakes pads and heats them up something fearce. Hot brake pads don't work so good.
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Also rather expensive.

Dan
 
Hank S said:
Make flights to all of the uncontrolled fields around your home base. I learned a lot about landing while satisfying the insurance dual in this manner. No two runways are the same, approaches vary, terrain is different. My home field is 3000 x 75 and flat; some are uphill, some down; some have humps, some have low spots; you need to experience variety. It really helps.
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Absolutely, if anything I feel like training on a 150' wide runway may have made my first solo less nerve racking but as a pilot who now wants to go places I need to build the experience. I may not have even mentioned this if I had held the brakes on that huge runway but on a 60' runway with just 30' side to side anything but dead center felt like too much.
 
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Hank S said:
Make flights to all of the uncontrolled fields around your home base. I learned a lot about landing while satisfying the insurance dual in this manner. No two runways are the same, approaches vary, terrain is different. My home field is 3000 x 75 and flat; some are uphill, some down; some have humps, some have low spots; you need to experience variety. It really helps.
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:yeahthat:

Bring an instructor as needed, and like the above, visit a wide variety of runways as time permits. It's a very good experience builder and a great reason to build time.

I too did much of my training and long wide runways like KDTO, KGLE, KAFW (100ft, 75ft 150ft wide respectively. The first time I did a landing a 52F's 40ft wide runway sorta spooked me. I was trimmed correctly for the proper final approach and across the fence airspeed. But when I got down into the roundout and flare, the narrow runway cause an illusion that I was waaay to fast for the 3500 ft length.

With practice, I got used to it.

Home runway at KDTO is 7000 ft, which is more than enough for the C182P. Continuing to visit runways of various lengths and widths helps build experience and confidence for conducting safe landings and take offs.

Oh, and keep your heels in contact with the floor. As an exercise in developing the correct landing speed, try to land at just the right speed where aero braking does all you need to slow the ground roll and make the turnoff.
 
AggieMike88 said:
So that's what the additional 3 buttons on the 310's yoke are for... Drogue Chute, tail hook, and anchor.
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LOL, A tail hook would be cool...:yes: in a 1000hrs on my Travelair I never put on brakes or tires. I operate very frugally.:wink2:
 
They keep a pair of tires where this happened at my flight school. They show them as a demonstration, being flat on one side.
 
benb172 said:
They keep a pair of tires where this happened at my flight school. They show them as a demonstration, being flat on one side.
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Good point about riding the brakes at touch down causes flat spotting.

But I'd rather flat spot tires than have this happen:


http://youtu.be/BoOQ-qPcd-E

I think the consensus was someone (passenger?) was up on the brakes and the momentum of the landing pivoted them right on over....
 
AggieMike88 said:
Good point about riding the brakes at touch down causes flat spotting.

But I'd rather flat spot tires than have this happen:


http://youtu.be/BoOQ-qPcd-E

I think the consensus was someone (passenger?) was up on the brakes and the momentum of the landing pivoted them right on over....
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Tv camera man inthe front seat pushed himself up to get a picture over the nose of the landing. He used the top of the rudder pedals to brace himself. DOH! :mad2:
 
I don't know about the tires, but he flat spotted the rudder!:yikes::mad2:


AggieMike88 said:
Good point about riding the brakes at touch down causes flat spotting.

But I'd rather flat spot tires than have this happen:


http://youtu.be/BoOQ-qPcd-E

I think the consensus was someone (passenger?) was up on the brakes and the momentum of the landing pivoted them right on over....
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I think it's a shame that Toe Brake is feeling bad - the landing really isn't Toe Brake's fault - more likely to be Yoke's fault. Perhaps there is some underlying condition that is leading to Toe Brake's depression? I realize that getting counseling / treatment is contrary to the "maintain a medical at all cost" creed, but personally, I think it's better to resolve this sort of problem since it can have a significant effect on one's personal life. And, let's face it, there are worse things than flying an LSA.
 
When I took my Stearman flight this spring the last thing the guy in the back seat said to me at take off was, "The airplane is ready to fly, I'm ready to fly, if your heels are on the floor nothing bad can happen" He reminded me "heels on the floor" when landing as well.
 
That's how you learn to slide your feet down when landing to prevent that (with toe brakes). I've been guilty of landing once with a little brake pressure applied at touchdown. It was certainly noticeable and yet another lesson learned...
 
Lately I've been landing with my feet off the floor but pressing low on the pedals. This has reminded me how easy it can be to accidentally press the toe brakes. Back to feet on the floor before I join you guys with the square tires.
 
I had a student trying to take off with pressure on the brakes. He was nervous and his legs were tense. The tires were protesting quite loudly and the acceleration was pretty poor.

Dan
 
tehmightypirate said:
Lately I've been landing with my feet off the floor but pressing low on the pedals. This has reminded me how easy it can be to accidentally press the toe brakes. Back to feet on the floor before I join you guys with the square tires.
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I was renting a C-182 in Abilene TX. Almost every time I rented, there was a new tire on one side or the other. Turns out there was a retired AF O-6 that the flight school finally banned from renting. Every time he flew he flat spotted the tires. The straw that finally broke, he wore it down to the tube and had a flat that blocked the runway.
 
Once you start buying the tires, you get acutely aware of where your feet are during landing and rollout. ;)

Nothing like having skin in the game.
 
denverpilot said:
Once you start buying the tires, you get acutely aware of where your feet are during landing and rollout. ;)

Nothing like having skin in the game.
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Most def!!

Also, as a sideline, you learn why one shouldn't overinflate tires too, at least the mains anyway.
 
With a vast majority of my hours in planes with rudder/nose-wheel interconnect, the "rule" is feet off the rudder pedals completely just before touchdown.
 
EdFred said:
With a vast majority of my hours in planes with rudder/nose-wheel interconnect, the "rule" is feet off the rudder pedals completely just before touchdown.
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:confused: Do you land flat? That sounds like a sure fire way to get crooked on the runway in a crosswind.
 
Ron Levy said:
Heels on the floor, heels on the floor.
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Everytime I lined up on the runway my instructor would say heels on the floor.......

I confirm DG then a second check on the fuel pump then always mutter heels on the floor. The things that stick in our head....
 
EdFred said:
With a vast majority of my hours in planes with rudder/nose-wheel interconnect, the "rule" is feet off the rudder pedals completely just before touchdown.
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I've done plenty of flying and instructing in airplanes with such interconnects and have honestly never had a problem with it - nor have I had to teach anyone anything different than I would in a 172.
 
EdFred said:
With a vast majority of my hours in planes with rudder/nose-wheel interconnect, the "rule" is feet off the rudder pedals completely just before touchdown.
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Which does pretty much nothing in cessna products without weight on the nose to unlock the centering lock. I can see a student in for a big suprise in gusty conditions if the strut is over serviced.
 
Henning said:
:confused: Do you land flat? That sounds like a sure fire way to get crooked on the runway in a crosswind.
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Upwind, downwind, nose wheel all in less than a second. When she's done flyin', she's done flyin', no extra speed to keep the nose wheel up for me. Never had an issue - even in a 20+kt crosswind where the runway width was less than my wingspan.

FastEddieB said:
I also have never heard of, nor applied that rule.
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Two of the local DPEs agree(d) with me. In the PA28 and PA24 if you keep full rudder deflection in when the nose wheel touches you are going off the runway in a hurry. Done a few flight reviews with low-timers in their Pipers where I had to save us from going off the runway because of this. The feet come off the pedals just before touching down, or pretty much simultaneously when the upwind wheel touches. But the feet are off the pedals for less than a second. Once the nose wheel is down, feet back on the pedals. Either way, no chance of flat spotting on touchdown.
 
I don't pull my feet off the pedals, but I do make sure they are neutralized on touchdown. Never had a problem.
 
jesse said:
I've done plenty of flying and instructing in airplanes with such interconnects and have honestly never had a problem with it - nor have I had to teach anyone anything different than I would in a 172.
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When I hear "rudder/nosewheel interconnect" I think "nosewheel steered with rudder pedals".

So that would include a 172, right?
 
Sac Arrow said:
I don't pull my feet off the pedals, but I do make sure they are neutralized on touchdown. Never had a problem.
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Yeah, I'm not holding them away like they are hot plates, just keeping zero pressure on them. But having an Arrow you know what happens when that nose wheel touches and you don't.
 
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