To Insure or not?

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bahama flier

Pre-takeoff checklist
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bahama flier
I have always insured my aircraft, it is a 1965 Cherokee Six, I completely refurbished it, and have more in it than its worth on the market, but well worth it to me.

I know many who own aircraft do not insure them, is there a formula or price range that one considers when buying insurance. I pay $1,500.00 per year and that is a lot of money for me and I have considered no insurance. I do fly over to the Bahamas a lot, and if a problem, insurance in the only help I would have, so that is my main reason for continuing to insure.

Any thoughts on this?
 
If you're not going to carry hull insurance, I feel like it's important to at least have liability coverage. Personally, I'd feel pretty uncomfortable flying around with zero insurance.
 
Knew a guy who didn't insure his Cherokee D, put it into the bay after an engine failure and lived, but had to pay out of pocket for all costs in getting the plane out, etc...

And at the end of the situation had no plane anymore and could not replace it.

So, question to you would be, do you have the money out of your own pocket to replace/repair anything that happens to the plane in a bad situation? Considering that may also include injuries to people in the plane, medical bills, property damage, hull damage etc?

I mean, why is it even a question?
 
Ryanb said:
For most it isn't. If you're going to fly, you need to be insured at some level, no questions asked.
That's my viewpoint.
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Right exactly. I mean $1,500 a year is FAR better than having to pay out medical costs and everything else associated with an accident. Forget the plane, that's the least of your problems in a major incident..
 
I'm ultra conservative financially and I'm always over-insured. I even pay for life insurance when my sole heir is a Pomeranian.

Adjust your hull value to what a replacement in the condition you bought it would cost. That way you'll back to square one instead of in a big hole should something happen. Too low a hull value and you could end up with a "total loss" that could have been buffed right out.
 
I don't remember the exact numbers, but I do remember that I inquired about liability only vs full insurance, and the difference was negligible. And it has gone down every year since then.
 
Ravioli said:
I'm ultra conservative financially and I'm always over-insured. I even pay for life insurance when my sole heir is a Pomeranian.

Adjust your hull value to what a replacement in the condition you bought it would cost. That way you'll back to square one instead of in a big hole should something happen. Too low a hull value and you could end up with a "total loss" that could have been buffed right out.
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Also remember, if you over-insure, the insurance company is much more likely to try to "bandage" it back together rather than writing it off. (I'm sure they wouldn't skimp on the repair, but still . . .). Personally, I'd rather take a check for less than the full value of the plane than to accept a major repair job that could potentially endanger my life, and make it much harder to sell the plane later.
 
To me it's a false economy to not insure if you have a plane worth anything significant. Liability is especially important if you care about your finances or your estate.
 
Our local airports here in Nuevo Kalyfornya unfortunately require a lot of coverage and adding full hull-value in motion too costs me just a few dollars extra.
Check into what your airport demands for insurance.
 
JOhnH said:
Also remember, if you over-insure, the insurance company is much more likely to try to "bandage" it back together rather than writing it off. (I'm sure they wouldn't skimp on the repair, but still . . .). Personally, I'd rather take a check for less than the full value of the plane than to accept a major repair job that could potentially endanger my life, and make it much harder to sell the plane later.
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In that case, take the check they offer you and sell the plane for salvage yourself. They don't arrange and pay for the repairs or reimburse you for actual - they write you a check for what the agreed upon settlement is.
 
As others have said, at a minimum, you really need to keep the liability (and in most cases the hull value coverage on top of that is minimal). If the $1,500 is "a lot of money", you can't afford not to be covered for the liability to others. Your choice if you're willing to let the value of the plane get lost.
 
rsleeds said:
In that case, take the check they offer you and sell the plane for salvage yourself. They don't arrange and pay for the repairs or reimburse you for actual - they write you a check for what the agreed upon settlement is.
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Every insurance company I have ever heard of will take possession of the vehicle once they total it and write a check. They may sell it back to you for salvage, but that doesn't usually make sense.
 
JOhnH said:
Every insurance company I have ever heard of will take possession of the vehicle once they total it and write a check. They may sell it back to you for salvage, but that doesn't usually make sense.
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If they total it sure. You said you would be afraid they wouldn't total it if over-insured because you'd worry about the repairs. If they don't total it, you get a check and can do whatever you want with the plane - repair it however you want or sell it. If they total it, it's not yours and you don't have to worry about what happens to it.
 
rsleeds said:
If they total it sure. You said you would be afraid they wouldn't total it if over-insured because you'd worry about the repairs. If they don't total it, you get a check and can do whatever you want with the plane - repair it however you want or sell it. If they total it, it's not yours and you don't have to worry about what happens to it.
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Ok, I see what you are saying. But when I had an "off airport" landing, they wouldn't give me a check. They required that I have it fixed and they paid the shop directly. They didn't give me a choice, but then again, I didn't argue with them because I wanted it fixed.

They paid the $5k to fix the little dent in the wing from the road sign, but they wouldn't pay any of the $33k to have the engine replaced that caused the whole thing. :(
 
rsleeds said:
In that case, take the check they offer you and sell the plane for salvage yourself. They don't arrange and pay for the repairs or reimburse you for actual - they write you a check for what the agreed upon settlement is.
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A few years ago I had a not in motion claim with USAIG. They sent the check straight to Beagles.
 
I carry 1,000,000 with sublimits and 90K hull. Cost $1400 from USAIG
 
Insurance industry has done terrific marketing over the years
"Can you afford NOT to have insurance"
"Insurance = responsibility"
Etc


To me it's just a product, like a spoon, sometimes I need it,sometimes I don't, depends on my risk analysts

Where an I flying the plane, outs for a emergency landing, how well do I know the areas I'm flying over

Lots of night or IMC flying?

How much time do I have in the plane

TSMOH

Any odd snags in the plane

What type of flying and how long have I been doing it, for example did you just get your IFR and are now going to be flying IFR for the first time

Storage situation, nice meal hangar, or tied down outside

Price of the plane vs insurance

Likley damage, cost to fix, chance of damage occurring, price to fix out of pocket

For me I've gone both ways on insurance, now my insurance being a amphib is considerably more expensive, but sometimes I see the need, other times I don't.
 
My insurance is $594/year for my $90k Skylane. I backed it into the hangar hitting the rudder, causing $6k damage. Insurance paid 100%. Would I go without? Not a chance. My advice? Shop around and see if you can save a few hundred off the premium.

Another point: Having insurance improves safety. How so? Knowing someone else will pick up the bill if you have to land off airport will help you make better decisions without having to worry about trashing a very expensive asset. Engine failure on take-off? The guy without insurance is most certainly more likely to attempt the "impossible turn" from a lower altitude than the insured guy who puts it down in the field.

Going without insurance is penny-wise pound foolish.
 
Yeah, no.

As someone who has had a engine failure, that's horse puckey.

Also the better condition the box is in, often times the better condition the contents are in.

But in a real engine failure you are not going to be thinking about your insurance and damage, not how it works in real life.

That said, my insurance is about 3k a year for a amphib, there are years I've saved quite a bit of money by not buying insurance, again you got to weigh your risks as I stated above.
 
James331 said:
Yeah, no.

As someone who has had a engine failure, that's horse puckey.

Also the better condition the box is in, often times the better condition the contents are in.

But in a real engine failure you are not going to be thinking about your insurance and damage, not how it works in real life.

That said, my insurance is about 3k a year for a amphib, there are years I've saved quite a bit of money by not buying insurance, again you got to weigh your risks as I stated above.
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Liability protects your long term finances, and that of your dependents and heirs, and hull protects your investment. Even rich people carry insurance, maybe more-so than a guy with his pockets turned inside out.
 
Again depends on the mission.

If you're flying over farmland, that's one thing

Out over the bush

Over LA or NYC
 
James331 said:
But in a real engine failure you are not going to be thinking about your insurance and damage, not how it works in real life.
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Agree. My engine quit and I was in a bad crash. On the way to the ground, I didn't once think about the plane or my insurance. I focused on getting down as safely as possible. Unfortunately I ran out of real estate without big giant trees, so I was damaged and the plane was destroyed. I was very happy to have insurance once I got out of the plane though. I got a check for the full amount and that is why I have a plane today.

We didn't make a medical claim because my passenger (co-owner in the plane) and I both had insurance through work that covered us, but Avemco asked us many times if we were sure and told us they would be happy to cover any medical costs.
 
James331 said:
Again depends on the mission.

If you're flying over farmland, that's one thing

Out over the bush

Over LA or NYC
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And whether one has the experience and credentials to repair their own aircraft.
 
Caramon13 said:
Right exactly. I mean $1,500 a year is FAR better than having to pay out medical costs and everything else associated with an accident. Forget the plane, that's the least of your problems in a major incident..
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Be very careful if you think aviation insurance covers medical. A great many policies are written now with very very small per seat medical coverages that will barely cover the ambulance ride. Read your policy carefully. Also know what an ambulance ride costs these days if you haven't seen a bill for one in years, before finalizing the insurance.
 
Lowflynjack said:
Agree. My engine quit and I was in a bad crash. On the way to the ground, I didn't once think about the plane or my insurance. I focused on getting down as safely as possible. Unfortunately I ran out of real estate without big giant trees, so I was damaged and the plane was destroyed. I was very happy to have insurance once I got out of the plane though. I got a check for the full amount and that is why I have a plane today.

We didn't make a medical claim because my passenger (co-owner in the plane) and I both had insurance through work that covered us, but Avemco asked us many times if we were sure and told us they would be happy to cover any medical costs.
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You proved my point. When you have insurance you don't worry about anything other than saving your butt.
 
JOhnH said:
I don't remember the exact numbers, but I do remember that I inquired about liability only vs full insurance, and the difference was negligible. And it has gone down every year since then.
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I asked about the same thing a few years ago when I had the 421B, the difference between liability and full coverage was a very small amount!
 
$625 vs $2400 on $160K hull. No small amount to me.
 
Lots of guys in the Amphbian community go naked because of the insurance cost. Question is - how quick can you make it look like you have no assets ?
 
Art VanDelay said:
Lots of guys in the Amphbian community go naked because of the insurance cost. Question is - how quick can you make it look like you have no assets ?
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My wife is an attorney. If I had to go home and tell her I crashed our $100k seaplane that I didn't insure because it was too expensive, I would end up with zero assets very quickly.
 
Personally, I'm way ahead because I spent the money on hull insurance...first one was a thunderstorm that took the hangar apart (woulda been really traumatic having my airplane wrecked had I not been hiding under the plow truck in the back hangar at the time), second one my brother had a leaf spring on the tailwheel break on landing. Both totaled the airplane.

If I could do the rebuild myself, my answer might be different, but if I can't afford to lose the money I've got in the airplane, hull insurance is a must.
 
I just got a quote the other day for insurance on my Model 12. $4400 a year! NO THANKS!
I own 3 planes and choose to fly without insurance. I know I am taking a chance but that's how I live.
If I had to pay insurance on all 3 I wouldn't have money left for gas. I also have full access to a V35B Bonanza but do not own that one. The owner does have insurance and I am listed as a pilot. If I had to pay insurance on everything I own then the insurance company would get my whole paycheck each week!
If I wreck one and survive I will just sweep up the remains, part it out and fly a different one.
 
I doubt pilots are making in-flight emergency decisions based on their insurance state - that's silliness. We do/do tend to ascribe idiocy to others, while lauding our personal decision making. . .you don't often hear somone say " I wish they'd make a rule to stop me. . .".
 
I don't know the circumstances nor the cause, but there's a Cessna at the bottom of a lake here today and two dead people. FD pulled them out after 50 minutes submerged. :-(

I don't even want to know how many lawyers/sharks will be circling and prepping to spar on that one.

RIP.
 
Brad Z said:
My wife is an attorney. If I had to go home and tell her I crashed our $100k seaplane that I didn't insure because it was too expensive, I would end up with zero assets very quickly.
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What if it were worth circa 50 to 60k and full insurance was 4.5k a year and you plan on owning the airplane for awhile. Do the math on that one.
 
I carry liability but no hull. I can afford to walk away from it. And there is a significant difference in the premium.

Interestingly on liability - For a number of years I carried multi million dollar liability for professional activities. Until a law suit showed up. For two and a half years my lawyers showed up at every deposition and every motion in court and each time demanded of the judge that I be dropped from the suit because I had nothing to do with it, nada, zilch, zero. - didn't provide any professional services, had no legal or professional relationship with the plaintiff. Each time the judge would look down at that huge insurance available number on the plaintiff's pleadings, smile, and say "We'll let the jury decide that."
The case eventually collapsed under it's own weight and the suit against me (finally, god, finally) dismissed with prejudice by the judge. 5 minutes later that huge policy was terminated by me and changed to a policy with only the bare minimum required by state law. Never had another suit filed in 30 years. Even the insurer's lawyer laughed as he said to me that policy was like a waving a red flag at every plaintiff attorney in the country..
 
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