To CSIP or not to CSIP?

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asicer

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asicer
That is the question.

Is it nobler to do my Cirrus transition training with a CSIP? Or should I just suffer the slings and arrows of a plain Jane CFI?
 
The Cirrus is a fairly conventional plane, and extremely safe when flown correctly, but has some bite-ya characteristics that are well known to the Cirrus specific instructors. Without a doubt your transition should absolutely, positively, unequivocally be done by a CSIP. Sorry for the lack of conviction ;-) There are more Cirrus fatals with CFI's on board than there should, be almost none of them should have happened. Almost all the CFI fatals were with non-CSIP instructors. Good luck.
 
I'd want a CFI with cirrus experice, but their marketing names wouldn't matter to me.
 
There is one exception that I can think of, who may be the best in the business, but may no longer be a CSIP by the name of Alex Wolf. Look him up, he can show you everything about the Cirrus. Otherwise a CSIP is money well spent.
 
Rockymountain said:
The Cirrus is a fairly conventional plane, and extremely safe when flown correctly, but has some bite-ya characteristics that are well known to the Cirrus specific instructors.
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Can you elaborate on these "bite-ya" characteristics?
 
I'd go CSIP. No doubt.

OP, where are you located?
 
asicer said:
Is it nobler to do my Cirrus transition training with a CSIP
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Yes. CSIP 100%
I did mine with a CSIP and learned a lot about the airplane. Cirrus makes a very nice training program as well to really walk you through everything. I would definitely recommend it. Frankly, I wish every plane had something like it. At the end of a proper CSIP transition course you have a very intimate knowledge of the airplane and its systems
 
I don't want to come across as rude or evasive, but the complexity of that topic could be covered in hours or days of dialogue not something that could be covered adequately or accurately in a forum type discussion. Just to reaffirm my opinion, a CSIP and the associated syllabus is worth way more than the money spent. There are few aircraft out there where more time and energy has been spent in developing an effective training program.
 
Rockymountain said:
a CSIP and the associated syllabus is worth way more than the money spent. There are few aircraft out there where more time and energy has been spent in developing an effective training program
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I totally agree. Shouldn't even be a question really. It's definitely not some marketing gimmick. The syllabus is impressive
 
Rockymountain said:
I don't want to come across as rude or evasive, but the complexity of that topic could be covered in hours or days of dialogue not something that could be covered adequately or accurately in a forum type discussion. Just to reaffirm my opinion, a CSIP and the associated syllabus is worth way more than the money spent. There are few aircraft out there where more time and energy has been spent in developing an effective training program.
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+1. No one offers single engine piston training like Cirrus does.
 
Eh id want someone with experience withthe avionics but csip is overkill its a plane it flys like other planes.
 
At 500’ point to the roof of the cabin and say “caps alive”.

You’ve been trained.*


See how special cirrus pilots are.... they can just point at something and it comes alive. That’s some special shiznit right thar.


*I kid, I kid. You should def get specialized training in any plane so dangerous it kills regular CFIs**.

**Is this true? Is there actual stats on this?
 
eman1200 said:
At 500’ point to the roof of the cabin and say “caps alive”.

You’ve been trained.*


See how special cirrus pilots are.... they can just point at something and it comes alive. That’s some special shiznit right thar.


*I kid, I kid. You should def get specialized training in any plane so dangerous it kills regular CFIs**.

**Is this true? Is there actual stats on this?
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Why would anyone want to fly in a plane so quirky it kills "regular" CFIs at all? If true,* that seems like a lot more than a training issue.

*I'm not asserting it is.
 
The fact that you described stepping into a Cirrus as a transition, I would opt for a CSIP.
 
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I went through the training and became a CSIP, albeit over a decade ago.

There’s no reason a non-CSIP cannot be an excellent instructor. But the “Standardized” part is important, and I think you’ll find a higher level of consistency among CSIP’s.

As far as the Cirrus being “dangerous”, I have about 700 hours or so in Cirrus, both my own and giving primary, instrument and transition training. I never saw anything dangerous or tricky in the stall characteristics. Pretty benign, in fact. But there are enough stall/spin accidents to indicate that just beyond the benign part “there be dragons”. It never dissuaded me from owning, flying and instructing in them - just a head’s up not to be complacent.

I’ve posted this numerous times before, but it’s representative of what may lie just beyond the edges of the envelope.

 
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asicer said:
That is the question.

Is it nobler to do my Cirrus transition training with a CSIP? Or should I just suffer the slings and arrows of a plain Jane CFI?
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A couple of high-profile training accident fatals with non-CSIP's prompted creation of the Cirrus Embark program, which offers free transition training with a CSIP for new owners of used Cirrus aircraft. This is similar to the factory transition training you'd receive when purchasing a new aircraft.

CSIP's must pass rigorous instructor training and maintain this currency. In addition, they use Cirrus standardized training syllabi.

Besides reading your POH and all supplements, you should also download the Cirrus Flight Operations Manual and study that. It's available as an interactive e-book. Also, register on the Cirrus training site and take the online transition training courses applicable to you avionics.
 
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I think you're looking at this the wrong way. There's a cost to becoming a CSIP. I think it's $4,000-5000. Can you recoup your investment? According to the folks at COPA, the answer would be a big yes. If I were still instructing, I'd pay the money.
 
jonnyjetprop said:
I think you're looking at this the wrong way. There's a cost to becoming a CSIP. I think it's $4,000-5000. Can you recoup your investment? According to the folks at COPA, the answer would be a big yes. If I were still instructing, I'd pay the money.
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And that's the answer.

It's more a marketing product than a sign of skill.

"CSIP REQUIREMENTS
The requirements to become a CSIP are:
CFII (Instrument Flight Instructor) or international equivalent
500 hours total flight time
250 hours dual instruction given "

No requirement for any IMC or FIKI time?

That just barely enough time to get a job as a drop zone pilot in a ratted out 182.

Ofcourse the biggest requirement to be a CSIP is forking over that $5,000 bucks!



Find a experienced working (135 single pilot IFR or the like) pilot who is also a CFI and has some cirrus time, you'll probably end up getting better instruction.


Tantalum said:
... The syllabus is impressive
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Is there a copy of that floating around somewhere, sounds like any good CFI with some familiarity with the cirrus products could just follow that template and produce the same results without having to fork over five thousand bucks to cirrus inc.
 
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A select elite few are doing quite well as full-time CSIP’s.

For many (most?) I suspect that even given the premium they can charge, it would still take a long, long time to recoup one’s investment. I was fortunate to have a benefactor, but given my part-time status, I had no chance of ever getting back the cost of the program had I sprung for it myself.
 
Looks like this is older post but I will try attempt resusrect it. Looks like Cirrus now want lot more than $4000-$5000 for the cert - https://cirrusaircraft.formstack.com/forms/csipapplication

I am hearing $8000-$10,000 all in as you have travel cost and hotel-meals to go to Cirrus training center to get this done. Now it seems the insurance companies are requiring CSIP certified instructors do the transition training. AS a part time CFI who has 200+ hours in an SR22, I find this ridiculous. You can get an ATP-CTP training for half of that. Are you CSIPS's out there finding the cert a value add from standpoint of your earning potential as a CFI? I would like to get the cert but 10 grand is a lot to shell out when I could get my MEI for less than half of that.
 
I completed Cirrus transition training last year at All In aviation in Las Vegas. Great CSIP instructor. As has been mentioned here, Cirrus’ can bite you in the ass really quickly if you don’t know what to look out for. CSIP are trained in this. My transition program cost around 10k but I was vey rusty when I started, having not flown in a couple of decades (well… a little more actually lol). At the end of training I realized I didn’t actually like flying Cirrus’ that much and bought a Cherokee 235 which I love. Completely different flight characteristics from Cirrus.

I can’t stress enough to bite the bullet and use a CSIP for any Cirrus training you may get. You won’t regret it.
 
I've never seen a cost to the CFI to get accredited and standardized, but it makes a lot of sense.

For you Cirrus pilots, what's a typical hourly rate for a CSIP instructor? I'd expect, given the barrier to entry, that they charge upwards of 150/hr?
 
Brian Burton said:
Looks like this is older post but I will try attempt resusrect it. Looks like Cirrus now want lot more than $4000-$5000 for the cert - https://cirrusaircraft.formstack.com/forms/csipapplication

I am hearing $8000-$10,000 all in as you have travel cost and hotel-meals to go to Cirrus training center to get this done. Now it seems the insurance companies are requiring CSIP certified instructors do the transition training. AS a part time CFI who has 200+ hours in an SR22, I find this ridiculous. You can get an ATP-CTP training for half of that. Are you CSIPS's out there finding the cert a value add from standpoint of your earning potential as a CFI? I would like to get the cert but 10 grand is a lot to shell out when I could get my MEI for less than half of that.
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I'm not a CSIP, but I 've have flown with a few and can agree that a CFI with 200+ SR22 hours will be as good as any of them. Get the FOM and follow along.

But, from what I know from those who have gone into type-specific certification - Cirrus and others - is that, from a business perspective, they are very busy and charge premium rates. I've done recurrent training with pilots who have also flown with CSIPs and, in the Bonanza arena, BPPP certified instructors. Their uniform complaint to me is that I don't charge enough :D
 
schmookeeg said:
I've never seen a cost to the CFI to get accredited and standardized, but it makes a lot of sense.

For you Cirrus pilots, what's a typical hourly rate for a CSIP instructor? I'd expect, given the barrier to entry, that they charge upwards of 150/hr?
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CSIP rate is $125/hr as of today
 
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