TKS Fluid

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JasonM

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I am contemplating moving into a new airplane. Something with FIKI capability.

I see rubber boots or TKS is my options. Someone mentioned briefly to me that TKS system is better, but the fluid and the systems can be messy.

Just how messy is this stuff? Is it a pain to have to clean off the airplane?

I read somewhere that you should leak TKS fluid out of the small holes every 30 days or so.

Does it make a mess in a hangar or even outside the hangar?

I have the vision of maple syrup all over the airplane after I fly.
 
I think what you should look at is the failures and capabilities of both systems.

Most aircraft only have one or the other, so that will box you in. Some Beech products have the option depending on which you buy. If you get a Cirrus, it'll have TKS. If you get a 310, it'll have boots. Personally, I would buy the plane I want first.

You mention FIKI. Do you mean true FIKI or a "full de-ice" setup? There's a difference first in purchase cost, sometimes in system complexity (and thus ownership cost when it breaks), etc. The 310 I fly is a non-FIKI bird. It is simple and has been cheap to keep working so far. The FIKI boot systems usually have extra boots, timers, etc. Yes, they are functionally better, but not by a ton and they can have all sorts of failures that are hard to diagnose. Also, FIKI isn't always better, just certified. For example, I think the alcohol windshields do a better job on 310s than the hot plate. But, for FIKI you need the hot plate.

Boots are nice because they don't have a bottle of fluid that runs out. That's about it, though. They work pretty well but require much closer monitoring as the FAA's "blow the boots immediately" is not a mantra I've heard a single experienced ice pilot agree with. So, 1/4" or so is usually what people want to wait for to get a clean break. Boots require getting some maintenance to keep them clean and shiny which helps shed ice. Power for boots comes from the outlet side of vacuum pumps, so you can't get rid of the pumps even if you go all glass. The valves can break, boots can leak, and you often won't notice it until the ice won't come off. I've had boots fail 2 or 3 times, electric prop de-ice fail more times than I can count - the wires are prone to getting frayed and broken from spinning around so fast, I had brushes go out, etc.

I've never flown with TKS, but turn it on and then monitor. I like that. I wouldn't ever sit around in icing with it, but I like the system design better.

I like the 310 and I think it's a great option for a de-iced plane. I wouldn't get a Baron instead because of TKS. But if I was going to buy a Baron, I'd look for one with TKS over boots.

If you have any questions on the various de-iced/FIKI twins out there I have experience with a lot of them.
 
Thanks Ted. I will be staying in a single. I will be going FIKI certified only as I intend to legally extend my flying days. Been looking at all brands and types out there, trying to get a grasp on the different options. I do like how the TKS coats the wings.

Still very curious about the mess in dealing with TKS.
 
We have a Hawker 800 that used TKS. Never had a problem. We do prime it about once a month, but only on outbound flights so that if it drips a little, it's on Signature/Atlantic/Landmark ramp.
 
Hawker800 said:
We have a Hawker 800 that used TKS. Never had a problem. We do prime it about once a month, but only on outbound flights so that if it drips a little, it's on Signature/Atlantic/Landmark ramp.
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:rofl: I'm guessing with the fees they would charge you in a Hawker, they should't really care much about a puddle of TKS fluid.
 
JasonM said:
That gives me some perspective, although I have never poured coolant all over my car and left it there to see what would happen. Is it a pain to clean off? Does it leave a sticky residue?
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No idea. I've never messed with TKS. I just googled it.

It is water soluble, so you should be able to just spray it off. Maybe use a spray bottle of hot water and a nice clean rag to clean it off.
 
I don't understand why they use toxic ethylene glycol instead of non toxic propylene glycol.

It's anti freeze dude, that's all it is, the same crap you pour in your radiator and dilute with water. The system dribbles it out, it forms slicks and puddles that dilute and rinse away easily, but unfortunately due to the fluid in use, is illegal to do so in many places without containment.
 
Kiddo's Driver said:
Probably because the got it certified before ethylene glycol was a big deal and they don't want to spend the money to get a propylene glycol based TKS certified. :mad2:
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I would be sorely tempt to change to an "uncertified" fluid.
 
Kiddo's Driver said:
I just did the math. You break even using clear propylene glycol, isopropanol, and distilled water. You could come out ahead if you used ethyl glycol...
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It's not about the money, it's about draining poison all over ramps that see coyotes, foxes, and other wildlife on them regularly. Even a few licks can leave them blind.
 
Id go with boots, as someone who flies in ice for a living, I like knowing that as log as my engine is turning my boots are probably working too.

All the planes I see working the ice day in and day out, have boots.

Make sure you know your speeds and flap setting incase of a deice failure ether way.
 
Henning said:
I don't understand why they use toxic ethylene glycol instead of non toxic propylene glycol.

It's anti freeze dude, that's all it is, the same crap you pour in your radiator and dilute with water. The system dribbles it out, it forms slicks and puddles that dilute and rinse away easily, but unfortunately due to the fluid in use, is illegal to do so in many places without containment.
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I totally agree with Henning.....

Ethylene Glycol is deadly to animals.... Let a little drip out from your TKS system and onto the ground and your dog laps some up... There is a VERY good chance it will NOT live to see the next sunrise...... It is HIGHLY toxic..:sad::sad:
 
Boots are pretty much the standard yet. Even on jets with hawkers being the only exception that I know of. Even new jets are overwhelmingly booted if not bleed air heated.

About the only place TKS has made a home is in GA singles.

Side note: If you think Hawkers are cutting edge think again and look at thier history and how many times they've been bankrup bought and sold. An example of thier oddity. Thier proprietary fasteners are expensive. Why would I want $30+ each screws holding on fairings? So I can spend thousands of dollars on screws? Say I need to replace them in an over wing fairing and its $1000 in screws that were worn out. That same fairing on a cessna would have $5 in screws holding it on. British engineering at its finest.
 
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N801BH said:
I totally agree with Henning.....

Ethylene Glycol is deadly to animals.... Let a little drip out from your TKS system and onto the ground and your dog laps some up... There is a VERY good chance it will NOT live to see the next sunrise...... It is HIGHLY toxic..:sad::sad:
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What makes it worse is it is sweet, sweet means high energy value at a time when it is sorely needed, so they tend to clean it up when they find it.:sad:
 
I think we should petition our congress critters to get the FAA to allow the substitution of Propylene glycol on a chemical and physical properties likeness basis (just issue the STC) or since the C-130 that does the icing flights is a public aircraft, provide it free of charge to do the proof testing seeing how the STC'd fluid will provide a public benefit.
 
Henning said:
I think we should petition our congress critters to get the FAA to allow the substitution of Propylene glycol on a chemical and physical properties likeness basis (just issue the STC) or since the C-130 that does the icing flights is a public aircraft, provide it free of charge to do the proof testing seeing how the STC'd fluid will provide a public benefit.
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My do STC? If no mod is required just issue an AC and be done with it
 
I have owned two booted airplanes and one with FIKI TKS. Both systems usually work but I have experienced failures with both. TKS is a little messy but a small piece of carpet on the floor at the low point of the wing plates will take care of the problem. You should not keep your plane in a community hangar as the chance of a dog smelling the fluid on the floor and lapping it up is certainly a possibility. Both boots and TKS have continuing need for inspection and maintenance. Both have a lot of connections so locating leaks is a continuing problem. I have gotten out of my low wing Mooney many times after running the TKS and you need to be a little careful but you will not slide off the wing nor stick to it. Someone said said pick the airplane you want first. I think that is good advice.
 
I wonder what I it would cost to add BRS to a TKS Mooney? Big bore turbo Mooney with TKS and BRS would be pretty awesome.
 
Henning said:
I wonder what I it would cost to add BRS to a TKS Mooney? Big bore turbo Mooney with TKS and BRS would be pretty awesome.
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I am not sure you could retrofit a BRS into a Mooney.. The Cirrus is composite and the sides can rip away easily... A metal plane would be very problematic to get it to work... IMHO...
 
Hawker800 said:
We have a Hawker 800 that used TKS. Never had a problem. We do prime it about once a month, but only on outbound flights so that if it drips a little, it's on Signature/Atlantic/Landmark ramp.
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On the other hand, I flew a Hawker 800 and couldn't stand the TKS system. I thought is was messy and not as effective as the boots that were on the King Air. But bleed air is best. :)
 
Walt said:
I have owned two booted airplanes and one with FIKI TKS. Both systems usually work but I have experienced failures with both. TKS is a little messy but a small piece of carpet on the floor at the low point of the wing plates will take care of the problem. You should not keep your plane in a community hangar as the chance of a dog smelling the fluid on the floor and lapping it up is certainly a possibility. Both boots and TKS have continuing need for inspection and maintenance. Both have a lot of connections so locating leaks is a continuing problem. I have gotten out of my low wing Mooney many times after running the TKS and you need to be a little careful but you will not slide off the wing nor stick to it. Someone said said pick the airplane you want first. I think that is good advice.
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Thank you sir. I have a private T hangar, so no issue there. It is good to know about that stuff. I had no idea it was that poisonous to animals.

So, with this TKS stuff.. Lets say you turn it on in flight for a bit then turn it back off before you land. How long does it usually take for it to clear itself from the wings?

I'm really drawn to these http://www.controller.com/listingsd...-GX/2008-MOONEY-M20R-OVATION-3-GX/1353223.htm , but I also could see myself going the 210 route or a Cirrus. Hard decisions in life..
 
I have TKS. It will continue to ooze a little for an hour after turning off the pumps in flight. Some towels to absorb occasional small puddles in the hangar are a good idea. TKS really works, and it could save a life. It requires very little maintenance, just running the pumps briefly every couple of months.
 
If we use it just before landing, (seldom) it will drip for about 12 hours. As Walt said, it's really no big deal. And we also put a piece of carpet on the inbd side of the wings.
 
Doesn't the non-toxic stuff have some kind of adverse reaction with composites?
 
17 years of experience with TKS in Hawkers.
I HATE the stuff. They say it doesn't cause corrosion, yet
It does remove the oils that protect steel parts.
We changed out aileron and trim bearings yearly.
I've seen corrosion from leaking TKS tanks junk fuselages.
Bugs plug the micro holes and leading edges have to be removed
To be cleaned. It may be your only option on some planes,
I'm not a fan. YMMV
Dave
 
N801BH said:
I am not sure you could retrofit a BRS into a Mooney.. The Cirrus is composite and the sides can rip away easily... A metal plane would be very problematic to get it to work... IMHO...
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Nah, it will install fine, just as it does in a 182, no worries.
 
FIKI in a single piston is iffy to start with.

If you must, get a upgraded 210 with boots.
 
Boots and TKS are two different systems and each have their own advantages and disadvantages.
Boots are a rubber product and as such deteriorate over time and require maintenance to keep them protected and looking good. The protectant coating should be stripped on occasion and another new fresh layer applied. You have to check for pin holes and have them patched.

TKS is a finite resource and you have to manage the quantity you have so you don't run out inflight. Yes, there can be corrosion problems and leaks sometimes, and it's slippery stuff on the ground. You should keep the lines primed on a regular basis so when you need it the fluid is right up to the panels. You can prime the lines while taxiing out for take off. TKS is not found at all the FBO's especially the smaller ones.

The biggest difference, boots are a de-ice system and TKS is an anti-ice system.
You turn on TKS before you get in icing conditions, where boots are turned on after encountering icing conditions.

I've flown over 13 years with TKS on Hawkers, and just finished 4 years with a booted jet.
 
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How well does the TKS take bird strikes? Do the bar's pores clog with bugs?
 
Henning said:
It's not about the money, it's about draining poison all over ramps that see coyotes, foxes, and other wildlife on them regularly. Even a few licks can leave them blind.
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Then the good news is that you could do it for about what TKS costs. And that is just on a quick search. If you substituted 70% pure isopropyl alcohol for the 99.9% stuff I was looking at and then just reduce the water you could save about 20%. The only thing you would have to order is the clear Propolyne glycol.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...rd_t=36701&pf_rd_p=1970559082&pf_rd_i=desktop

plus three 16 oz bottles of 70% iso alcohol and 60 oz of distilled water from your local store of choice and you are good to go.

N801BH said:
I am not sure you could retrofit a BRS into a Mooney.. The Cirrus is composite and the sides can rip away easily... A metal plane would be very problematic to get it to work... IMHO...
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It can be done. BRS has a consulting engineer that can help with the design & 337.

Jim
 
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TKS sounds like a PITA in terms of having to replenish it, and the mess and toxicity doesn't sound too good either. I've got no experience with it but I've heard that it is superior to a lot of the boot systems because it protects areas behind the boots if you get into really bad icing. True? Or is that just marketing BS?
 
narchee said:
TKS sounds like a PITA in terms of having to replenish it, and the mess and toxicity doesn't sound too good either. I've got no experience with it but I've heard that it is superior to a lot of the boot systems because it protects areas behind the boots if you get into really bad icing. True? Or is that just marketing BS?
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Its both. Really bad icing will still hurt since unprotected surfaces still collect it. Think drains, antennas etc. I've heard of rod type antennas
being cracked from being overloaded with ice and aerodynamic forces.

Don't forget in really bad icing props become a problem again too.
 
Kiddo's Driver said:
Then the good news is that you could do it for about what TKS costs. And that is just on a quick search. If you substituted 70% pure isopropyl alcohol for the 99.9% stuff I was looking at and then just reduce the water you could save about 20%. The only thing you would have to order is the clear Propolyne glycol.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...rd_t=36701&pf_rd_p=1970559082&pf_rd_i=desktop

plus three 16 oz bottles of 70% iso alcohol and 60 oz of distilled water from your local store of choice and you are good to go.



It can be done. BRS has a consulting engineer that can help with the design & 337.

Jim
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Oh yeah, making the fluid is not a problem at all, that is why it bugs me they use the wrong fluid. IIRC the airport deice spray stuff is propylene glycol now.
 
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