Tis Better to be Dead than Fired...

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KennyFlys

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At least, according to Pizza Hut officials. :rolleyes:

Stolen from Boortz:

Man these stories just get my boxers in a bunch. A thug by the name of Kenneth Jimmerson called his local Pizza Hut in Des Moines, Iowa. James William Spiers, who has been delivering pizzas for ten years, makes the delivery. When James shows up to make the delivery, Kenneth puts a gun to his head and demands money.

So think about the different ways this scenario could play out. James could refuse and be shot in the head. James could give the guy the money and run and this thug could get away with armed robbery. James could give the guy the money and get shot anyway. Or James could pull out his own registered handgun, shoot the armed robber three times and get away with his life.

Thankfully James went with the last option. He had a valid handgun permit and used it at an appropriate time to protect himself when he had a gun pointed at his head. There is some bad news here. The predator survived his injuries. He does, however, face first-degree robbery charges. Perhaps he'll get a short sentence and when he gets out of jail he'll pull this stunt again and get killed for good this time.

So where does this story really turn sour? Pizza Hut has now suspended James William Spiers. And who knows if he will ever be able to return to work. The vice president of human resources at Pizza Hut says that employees are not allowed to carry guns "because we believe that that is the safest for everybody." Gawd, what a fool. Tell that to James, whose life was possibly saved because he chose to protect himself. Basically, what this woman at the Pizza Hut headquarters is saying that she would rather have had one of her employees shot (and possibly killed) rather than allow them to protect themselves. What an asinine train of thought.
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This is just plain wrong. I don't eat at Pizza Hut now. This surely does not encourage me to go back.
 
Well at least he didn't need to be a be a "victim of multiple violent crimes" to be granted the extraordinary ability by the State to carry a weapon, like we have here in the People's Republic of Wisconsin.

Read this if you want to puke. What a chicken feces court: http://www.wrpa.com/pdf/Vegas_decision.pdf

The reasoning was that the Wisc. provision against carrying a concealed weapon was unconstutional "as applies to him." Not to any of the rest of us who travel in Milwaukee on a daily basis or otherwise wish to protect ourselves, but only to Vegas.
 
Under the Fourteenth Amendment, I don't think that would pass muster. The decision should apply equally to anyone in a similar situation.

Frankly, as long as one does not have a felony record or record of mental illness there should be no reason why one should not be issued a CCW permit.
 
Iowa currently has a "shall issue" law going through the senate and house now. Iowa is not a "shall issue" yet but hopefully will be. Some counties sheriffs make it close to impossible to get a concealed weapon.

Hearing this I hope never to eat Pizza Hut again but it shouldn't be too hard...I thought the pizza sucked anyway.
 
I don't eat Pizza Hut because their product sucks!

But getting fired from Pizza Hut, big wooptee do. He can get a 'za' driving gig anywhere.

I only got robbed once when I drove and it was fortunately a big non event. Not as dramatic as this one to be sure.

I did get fired from 7-11 because I did not shoot a robber that got $25 from me out of the register. He was unarmed except for a knife and told me to give him the money. I did, he left, I wrote down his plate and the cops caught him 20 minutes later. The owner of the store had a standing rule to use the .357 we had under the counter to shoot anyone that threatened us. He fired me for not shooting the guy even though the whole thing happened in less than 2 minutes and the guy was gone.
 
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I suppose he could have been killed then his family would have one hell of an action against Pizza Hut. No doubt, probably with good success.
 
KennyFlys said:
I suppose he could have been killed then his family would have one hell of an action against Pizza Hut. No doubt, probably with good success.
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Or wounded, had pizza hut pay for his medical and then sued the guy who shot him and then Pizza Hut could have sued him to get their money back.....
 
smigaldi said:
Or wounded, had pizza hut pay for his medical and then sued the guy who shot him and then Pizza Hut could have sued him to get their money back.....
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When I started to read Boortz, I had nearly expected a story about the crook surviving then suing the driver. Well, like Boortz said, maybe the next time will save the taxpayers the expense of a trial. I'm betting there will be a next time.
 
KennyFlys said:
Frankly, as long as one does not have a felony record or record of mental illness there should be no reason why one should not be issued a CCW permit.
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Kenny... WI does not allow concealed carry. There are no CCW permits here. :no: :dunno:
 
drizzt76 said:
Iowa currently has a "shall issue" law going through the senate and house now. Iowa is not a "shall issue" yet but hopefully will be. Some counties sheriffs make it close to impossible to get a concealed weapon.

Hearing this I hope never to eat Pizza Hut again but it shouldn't be too hard...I thought the pizza sucked anyway.
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Story Co, it's impossible to get a CCW unless you need it for work. When I moved to Polk Co., I had it in two weeks (it took me 10 days to find and schedule a class). Go figure.
 
my home county has a county sheriff that excercises his ability to issue hardly any Concealed carry permits for whatever reason. lots of stuff in the newspaper about it lately.

when i was in high school a pizza delivery man got robbed or stabbed or something in des moines. i cut the article out of the des moines register and hung it up in my dad's kitchen, hoping we could get some sort of hazard pay. it didnt work out...
 
Teller1900 said:
Story Co, it's impossible to get a CCW unless you need it for work. When I moved to Polk Co., I had it in two weeks (it took me 10 days to find and schedule a class). Go figure.
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In the mid '90s I had a permit from Muscatine County. I said that carrying a laptop around made me a target, and I got the permit. It was tougher when I got to Scott Co., but I did end up getting one there as well. But the limitations were ridiculous - it was good for going to and from work, and at work only.

A shall issue permit is the only way to go.
 
I'm going to be the fly in the ointment here. My employer has a policy of no weapons in the work place, concealed or otherwise. This is their right, since its private property and I don't belong to a militia. If I really don't like it I can get another job. However, if I really felt so insecure that I thought a firearm was needed, I'd get a new job. I don't like war zones. Pizza hut has a right to their policy, and you guys have a a right to noisily boycott their products because of it.

I won't eat at Pizza hut either, but only because their pizzas make me sick.
 
We also have a no weapon policy. I have asked HR to supply me with a written letter for my file stating they assume all rights to protect me from bodily harm in the work place. They have denied my requests. As such, I do what is needed to increase the odds of me being able to protect myself.
 
kevin47881 said:
We also have a no weapon policy. I have asked HR to supply me with a written letter for my file stating they assume all rights to protect me from bodily harm in the work place. They have denied my requests. As such, I do what is needed to increase the odds of me being able to protect myself.
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Not just in the workplace either. If your employer's policy prohibits a weapon locked in your car on their parking lot, then they should also assume responsibility for your safety while enroute to and from work.
 
A question side-stepped in this discussion, and one I find to be the interesting one here, is that if you have a gun pointed to your head, as pizza guy did, what's the best response, where "best" here is defined by "maximal odds of my survival".

Are you more likely to walk away from this event if you fork over the $27 in your pocket and back away slowly, or if you pull out your gun and start shooting?
-harry
 
mantakos said:
A question side-stepped in this discussion, and one I find to be the interesting one here, is that if you have a gun pointed to your head, as pizza guy did, what's the best response, where "best" here is defined by "maximal odds of my survival".

Are you more likely to walk away from this event if you fork over the $27 in your pocket and back away slowly, or if you pull out your gun and start shooting?
-harry
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How is it possible to know? A few years ago at a local high school, a young man was waiting for his father to pick him up following an after school event. In broad daylight, just outside the administration offices, two other teens attempted to rob this young man. When all he had was 2 dollars, the robbers became infuriated, and shot him dead. Would the guy who tried to rob that pizza man been satisfied with $27? Would he have shot him just for the thrill? Is one willing to gamble their life on the robber being satisfied with their take? I'm not!
 
Is one willing to gamble their life on the robber being satisfied with their take? I'm not!
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You're gambling your life in both scenarios, the question is "what's the better bet?"

Clearly you can never know the best response for a single event, but it seems like a scenario that has occurred enough times that somebody could review the results and draw some conclusions about what works more often than not, in the same way that advice is offered for things like bear attacks, based on a review of past experiences.

It's clear that similar circumstances have occurred often enough that plenty of anecdotes exist for every possible combination of response and results, so as usual, we can learn nothing from these except what is possible, and we already know that all the outcomes under consideration are possible.

In this case, it seems like this was one bad-ass pizza guy. He not only shot the robber three times, but wrestled the robber's gun away from him, and ended up with both guns in his possession.
-harry
 
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mantakos said:
A question side-stepped in this discussion, and one I find to be the interesting one here, is that if you have a gun pointed to your head, as pizza guy did, what's the best response, where "best" here is defined by "maximal odds of my survival".

Are you more likely to walk away from this event if you fork over the $27 in your pocket and back away slowly, or if you pull out your gun and start shooting?
-harry
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Frank Browne said:
How is it possible to know?
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All you have is statistics. Those say you are more likely to walk away if you just give the money up. But it is not a 100% guarantee. This could have been one of the times when the bad guy blows you away anyways. We just don't know. It is a real judgment decision time.

I do not believe that CCW is the cure all that some think it is. I also think it will introduce new problems into law enforcement and some people will die that would not have dies if CCW was not the law in their area. But I do know that this instance worked out best for ALL.
 
smigaldi said:
All you have is statistics. Those say you are more likely to walk away if you just give the money up. But it is not a 100% guarantee. This could have been one of the times when the bad guy blows you away anyways. We just don't know. It is a real judgment decision time.
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Right. But absent the option of self defense, the judgment call becomes the assailant's and not the assaulted.

smigaldi said:
...and some people will die that would not have dies if CCW was not the law in their area.
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Yes, like the bad guys. They should at least have to face the same uncertainty of survival as their victims do.
 
Frank Browne said:
Right. But absent the option of self defense,
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Again with that mistaken chuck of logic. Just because you may not have a gun does not mean that you are not allowed to defend yourself. You do not have to stand there. You have many other options. If you think the only way to defend yourself is to shoot then I have made my point that CCW will just result in SSDD
 
smigaldi said:
Again with that mistaken chuck of logic. Just because you may not have a gun does not mean that you are not allowed to defend yourself. You do not have to stand there. You have many other options. If you think the only way to defend yourself is to shoot then I have made my point that CCW will just result in SSDD
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How in the hell did manage to torture out of my post that I thought the only option was to shoot? You did read the word "option" in there didn't you?
 
Frank Browne said:
How in the hell did manage to torture out of my post that I thought the only option was to shoot? You did read the word "option" in there didn't you?
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You said it; "absent the option of self defense" Explain why not having a gun is "absent the option of self defense"

Your words.
 
smigaldi said:
You said it; "absent the option of self defense" Explain why not having a gun is "absent the option of self defense"

Your words.
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OK, if you are being robbed by a fidgety, sweating crack head with a knife or a gun, and all you can pull out is a hand with some skin on it, how many options do you have other than just hoping he doesn't want to kill you for grins and giggles? My .45 is one option I keep close at hand. If you choose to disallow yourself a similar option, that's your business.
 
smigaldi said:
I do not believe that CCW is the cure all that some think it is. I also think it will introduce new problems into law enforcement and some people will die that would not have dies if CCW was not the law in their area. But I do know that this instance worked out best for ALL.
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Nor do I think it is a cure all. But your concerns, which I can understand, are not founded in fact. 48 states have some form of CCW, and the fears that you have simply have not occurred. You and I both know that if there was a demonstrated problem with CCW carry holders regularly acting carelessly or unlawfully, these laws would be pulled very quickly from these states. But that has not happened, because CCW works. Not only for those that carry, but also for those that don't, because the bad guys can't tell who carries and who doesn't.
 
Frank Browne said:
OK, if you are being robbed by a fidgety, sweating crack head with a knife or a gun, and all you can pull out is a hand with some skin on it, how many options do you have other than just hoping he doesn't want to kill you for grins and giggles? My .45 is one option I keep close at hand. If you choose to disallow yourself a similar option, that's your business.
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I don't understand your scenario. You said that I could not defend myself if I did not have a weapon. I am still asking to explain that logic.

In your scenario alone I can think of the following

1. run away
2. hit the guy
3. pull out mace or pepper spray
4. Karate or other martial art
5. pullout your knife
6. etc.

Yes a gun is an option but absence of one does not mean you cannot defend yourself using some other method.
 
nddons said:
Nor do I think it is a cure all. But your concerns, which I can understand, are not founded in fact. 48 states have some form of CCW, and the fears that you have simply have not occurred. You and I both know that if there was a demonstrated problem with CCW carry holders regularly acting carelessly or unlawfully, these laws would be pulled very quickly from these states. But that has not happened, because CCW works. Not only for those that carry, but also for those that don't, because the bad guys can't tell who carries and who doesn't.
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I do not think there are enough stats to make any conclusion yet. CCW is fairly new and limited even in states that allow it.
 
smigaldi said:
I don't understand your scenario. You said that I could not defend myself if I did not have a weapon. I am still asking to explain that logic.
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Where did I say that? I have been quite clear that I have talking about the use of a firearm as an option.

smigaldi said:
1. run away
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I hope he can't run faster than me with my bum knee...or shoot me in the back for grins and giggles.
smigaldi said:
2. hit the guy
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And hope he doesn't have a knife or a gun, or is bigger than me.
smigaldi said:
3. pull out mace or pepper spray
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See answer to #2
smigaldi said:
4. Karate or other martial art
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See answer to #2.
smigaldi said:
5. pullout your knife
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And hope he doesn't have a gun.
smigaldi said:
6. etc.
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???

It's all about the option. And, it's about instilling the same fear in the assailant as he instills in his victims.

smigaldi said:
Yes a gun is an option but absence of one does not mean you cannot defend yourself using some other method.
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A gun in the hand beats a cop on the phone any day.
 
Frank Browne said:
Where did I say that? I have been quite clear that I have talking about the use of a firearm as an option.


I hope he can't run faster than me with my bum knee...or shoot me in the back for grins and giggles.

And hope he doesn't have a knife or a gun, or is bigger than me.

See answer to #2

See answer to #2.

And hope he doesn't have a gun.

???

It's all about the option. And, it's about instilling the same fear in the assailant as he instills in his victims.


A gun in the hand beats a cop on the phone any day.
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So you agree that not having a gun does not preclude you from defending yourself, it just removes an option from your course of self defense?
 
The reason the story in question made it into the news is because its unusual. Most gun deaths are suicides.
 
Again, most gun deaths are suicides. Even Scott agrees with me. Is there anyone on this board not in law enforcement or the military who has ever had to so much as unholster a weapon?
 
Frank Browne said:
So you would disagree that it would be a bad idea to try and wrestle a gun away from a cracked up gang banger?
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Well I think that your question cannot be answered as it is far to general and with out context. I would willing to say that for someone without the proper training or physical advantage that it would not be the best idea.
 
steingar said:
Again, most gun deaths are suicides. Even Scott agrees with me. Is there anyone on this board not in law enforcement or the military who has ever had to so much as unholster a weapon?
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A very good friend of mine (74 years old) did just a few months ago. Fortunately, he didn't have to discharge it, as the two assailants moving in on him and his 72 yo wife immediately retreated.
 
steingar said:
Again, most gun deaths are suicides. Even Scott agrees with me. Is there anyone on this board not in law enforcement or the military who has ever had to so much as unholster a weapon?
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Well, if Scott agrees with you, close the thread as we have come to a conclusion ;)

To your question, yes, me.
 
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