Tips for prospective student?

[AirRider]

Hi, I am interested in learning to fly. I am mostly interested in VFR and short tours. I live in NYC.
Does anyone have basic advice for choosing a flight school? I know that going hourly is recommended vs. a package rate. Would you recommend a fully equipped 172 vs. a basic 150 for someone in my situation? Any other advice for a newbie trying to keep costs under control?

Thanks,
AirRider

 

[nosehair]

Do the basic 150 first. I don't know your area, and my recommendation for the 150 is based on no information about the overall condition of each one, but all things being equal, the smaller less-equipped machine is easier to learn at first. At first, you are only concerned with the primary controls; what makes it go up/down, left/right, fast/slow, etc. Your hands and feet learn these controls, and they are universal in all airplanes.

THEN, you go for the equipment. AFTER you learn to control and manage the flying machine, THEN you learn how to work instruments and equipment attached to that flying machine, and they vary quite a bit from airplane to airplane.

 

[michelle]

As someone who went through the decision-making process within the past month, one of the things I looked at was the cost-per-hour for the rental. I cannot offer insight on the 172 vs 150 question since I am not training in a Cessna, but I have a choice between a two-seater and four-seater...that choice made for a difference of $30 an hour.

While not a huge sum in the grand scheme of things, the money not spent in the four-seater is money that I can apply to hourly costs once I have the PPL in hand. In between the regular lessons, I have also budgeted for a few sessions in the four-seater in order to discern differences between the two and to become more familiar with the four-seater since much my post-lesson time will likely be in it.

Other considerations I looked at were the differences between learning at a field with no tower versus someplace with a fair amount of towered traffic in and out. As I expect to fly from the Austin area to Houston and Dallas on a periodic basis, I felt I was better served to have the experience from the beginning in Class C space. My guess is that the OP has similar options being in the hectic air that is the NYC area...

I never asked about a package rate. I did inquire about average numbers of hours that their students tended to see. Personal financial situations will dictate whether it is advisable to self-fund versus looking into the loans...I was given a few options on the loans but decided against them since the interest rates were higher than would apply to my credit cards. The fact that I could rack up some rewards on the cards was a small bonus to the self-funding.

Other issues to look at are availability of the planes and instructors...if you can only get airtime on an infrequent basis, it may take longer to get to the ultimate goal. I have flexibility in my work schedule and so I don't have to worry as much about whether the plane and instructor will be available late afternoon when I got off of work. As a result, if I see a block of time where the plane and the instructor are available, I can reserve it no matter whether it is morning or afternoon or weekend.

One other thing...don't be reluctant to go and talk to the people at more than one place. You will be spending a lot of time with their staff in rather confined quarters...it stands to reason that you ought to be able to get along with them. You may find one place is more relaxed in their attitudes than someplace that tends to be a little on the brusque side in their approach.

I'm sure that others can add more insight...but there is definitely more than sheer cost considerations to look at.

 

[Steve]

Find a small airport away from the big city. Like nosehair mentioned, learning to fly is a progressive thing. You'll have less frustration getting the basics first without the added distraction of complex airspace concerns and be much happier with your rate of progression.

You'll have plenty of opportunity to acquire the radio and navigation skills after you acquire the primary skills. A good CFI will make sure you do.

my 2¢

 

[Rob Schaffer]

What Michelle Said....

I trained in a 152, basically due to the fact I could fly 3hrs in a 152 for the cost I could for 2 in a 172. Adds up quick. I found a flight school that was flexible in my training schedule and easy to schedule with. My finances were saved up ahead of time, so I started trying to fly once a week till I solo'd,.. then twice a week after that,... and sometimes I was able to get a third. Do what works for you, if it's once a week, good, if you can get in some more, even better. Read up on your spare time or a cancelled lesson due to weather, since you've devoted that time already to flying.

Good Luck, Have Fun,.. and ask questions as you go...

 

[Mtns2Skies]

Height is the largest issue because im 13 i fly the 152 because it is smaller and easier the reach rudder petals. however if you are taller you should consider the 172 but other than these differences they handle very similarly

 

[CJones]

Height is the largest issue because im 13 i fly the 152 because it is smaller and easier the reach rudder petals. however if you are taller you should consider the 172 but other than these differences they handle very similarly

I'm 6'7" and I did all of my primary training in a 152. Comfortable? Not really, but doable.

 

[rottydaddy]

I'd also recommend starting out in the 150... you'll thank yourself later, most likely.

As far as schools go, the one at Farmingdale (Republic) is supposed to be good, and I've dealt with Lincoln Park Aviation at N07; they are OK...if you don't have a car you may find your options limited, however (although I think you can get pretty close to Farmingdale by train).
It's too bad they're not doing primary training at Teterboro anymore (as far as I know)... there's a bus from the GW Bridge terminal that goes right to the airport.

 

[Mtns2Skies]

I'm 6'7" and I did all of my primary training in a 152. Comfortable? Not really, but doable.

Lol I would love to see that

 

[Clark1961]

The other posts have made some good points. I went with the skyhawk 'cause at 200 lbs with an equal sized instructor we couldn't fly a 152 with full tanks. Not to mention that we'd barely fit in the thing. How well do ya wanna know your instructor and how's their (and your) hygiene?

Another important point is aircraft availability. Planes are down for inspection every 100 hours and sometimes they break and sometimes other student's break'em so a spare or three is nice to have. I don't know the ideal number of planes for a school but I do know it is more than three if there are about a dozen or so active students. I would generally have to schedule at least a week out or accept the early or late time slots. Early goes in the winter aren't much fun. Late flights make it harder to get up and go to work the following morning.

'nother point is to have the opportunity to fly with several instructors. No one is perfect ('though a few instructors may try to tell you different) and it's nice to get instruction from several different folks.

A final point, older aircraft can be just fine - solo'd in a 78 Skyhawk and took my checkride in a 79. They do have their downsides. The 79 had whiney coms and flakey navs. They both looked like what they were, well used trainers, but they mostly flew ok when I did my part.

Long story made short, ask around about how well the school maintains the aircraft. Ask how many active students, instructors, and planes the school has. Ask about flying with different instructors - if it's a problem at that school then run away quick.

 

[CJones]

Lol I would love to see that

You know... I don't think I have a single picture of me with that airplane. How sad.

When I went for my PP checkride, the examiner asked "How do you get in that thing!?" I said "I don't really get IN it. I just 'put it on.'"

 

[Mtns2Skies]

You know... I don't think I have a single picture of me with that airplane. How sad.

When I went for my PP checkride, the examiner asked "How do you get in that thing!?" I said "I don't really get IN it. I just 'put it on.'"

ROFL im gonna remember that one

 

[mjburian]

My suggestion would be to learn in the 150... don't spend any money on the 172 right now. Then, once you've got your ticket... take the money you saved by flying the cheaper plane and:

1) Get checked out in a 172 (shouldn't take more than a few hours)
2) Go fly someplace fun as a "graduation" gift to yourself
3) Spend the remaining money however you'd like (giving friends rides, working on the next rating, staying current/proficient, etc)

 

[poadeleted20]

Does anyone have basic advice for choosing a flight school?

Approach it as though you were hiring an employee. Do plenty of investigation, interview applicants, and get (and follow up with) references.

Would you recommend a fully equipped 172 vs. a basic 150 for someone in my situation?

The problem with a C-150 is that you may find it cramped and uncomfortable, and the Law of Effect says you won't learn as well in an uncomfortable environment. In addition, if both you and your instructor are more than the FAA-average 170 lb, you may find that with both of you aboard, the airplane may not be able to carry much fuel. If you choose to go the 150 route, get at least one intro ride with your proposed instructor aboard to make sure the comfort factor is acceptable and have the instructor check weight and balance so you know you can both get in with full fuel.

Any other advice for a newbie trying to keep costs under control?

Study like a bandit before every flight, and select an instructor who does most of the teaching on the ground before each flight, and thoroughly debriefs each flight afterward. The money you save on less wasted time in the cockpit will more than cover the extra money you pay for the extra ground training time.

 

[Dean]

so you know you can both get in with full fuel.
.

Why? I did all my instruction in a 150 and we just made sure we had the required fuel on board for the time we would be out. Why add fuel if it is not needed? That just takes away from the useful load and with the 150 you need all you can get.

 

[gprellwitz]

Why? I did all my instruction in a 150 and we just made sure we had the required fuel on board for the time we would be out. Why add fuel if it is not needed? That just takes away from the useful load and with the 150 you need all you can get.

That depends on how you find the tanks when you go to fly. If the person in front of you filled them up, you may find yourself over max gross. Similarly, it's hard to know how much fuel you're starting with if you don't fill it up.

 

[KennyFlys]

Ron made the point I was going to make regarding comfort. Fitting into the 150/152 is like crawling into an elevated bathtub for some people and certainly for your's truly.

Another aspect I learned in my short time teaching is while some do well with the 150/152, when it comes to landings they can't quite nail the quality of touchdown they would like. A few times, I've suggested trying the 172 with its added weight as well as more comfort. Two students improved dramatically while another was about the same. That extra 800 pounds does make a difference for some in how they handle the airplane, particularly when making crosswind landings.

So, try both and see what works best for you. A lot of basics can easily be done in the 150/152 if it's not too cramped. Later on, move up to the 172 if that helps.

 

[ntbjounin]

I agree with much of what has been said. Save the money and the fancy stuff for after you get your ticket. I would MOST encourage you to spend a little more on autogas and drive to a not so busy airport. I know how big NYC is, but Teterboro or Linden will be VERY crowded and intense! I'd recommend Westchester County, or Morristown. I dont think they're the best, because they're still in VERY busy airspace, but if you live in NYC, then you're going to have to drive a ways anyway...

I really think you need to make the drive. If you find a less congested airport, you'll spend less money hourly as you sit in line to takeoff, as well as you'll actually learn to fly the airplane.

Hectic airspace and talking with approach and switching between towers every 5 seconds will distract you from actually learning. also, if you're in that airspace, you'll just have to fly out of it to do any training anyway. Might as well just drive out there a little farther.

I'd go for the 150, unless you're a big guy, b/c like they said, 2 ppl in a 150 doesnt work with full fuel. don't ask me how i know

i'd say this is my 2 cents, but everything is going up in price, so there's 4 cents. also, since everything's going up in price, you better get started now while gas is still under $10/gal

 

[AirRider]

Thanks everyone for your advice.
I like the idea of using a more rural airport for training but that will be difficult because I don't have a car. I have considered taking some intensive training while on "vacation" in a less crowded place, maybe going to Tennessee for a week and packing in some hours there. Otherwise it would probably be Farmingdale since I can get there on the train.

I am a pretty big guy so the advice about the size of the 150/152 is appreciated.

 

[kevin47881]

If Nashville is on your places in TN let me know and I can hook you up with an outstanding CFI at KJWN.

 

[gprellwitz]

Another aspect I learned in my short time teaching is while some do well with the 150/152, when it comes to landings they can't quite nail the quality of touchdown they would like. A few times, I've suggested trying the 172 with its added weight as well as more comfort. Two students improved dramatically while another was about the same. That extra 800 pounds does make a difference for some in how they handle the airplane, particularly when making crosswind landings.

So, try both and see what works best for you. A lot of basics can easily be done in the 150/152 if it's not too cramped. Later on, move up to the 172 if that helps.

Leslie's landings improved dramatically when she went from the 172 to the 182. NOT that I would suggest the 182 for a primary student!

 

[pgengler]

I live in the NYC area (just across the river on the NJ side) and it was just a few months ago that I was looking at flight schools. I took a day and drove to most of the ones within about an hour's drive or so to talk with them, get some idea of prices, etc, and to check out the airports a little bit. I ended up creating a spreadsheet with the prices to get a rough idea of the total cost at each school, and used that as just one of the factors for picking a school.

In the end, I decided on a slightly farther non-towered airport (SMQ) over a slightly closer towered one (MMU or CDW). I figured that at least initially, it would make things a lot easier to work in and out of a non-towered airport. Also, I can screw up with one less person yelling at me about it. (I sometimes listen to a couple of LiveATC streams at work, and sometimes listen to FRG. I think it was a good choice to not be mixing it up with bizjets and the like at an airport like MMU or FRG.)

I can't offer you any advice on the 150/152 vs. 172 issue; I had expected I would have needed to choose between those, but the school I'm at has Piper Cherokees instead. I did do a 'discovery flight' at a different airport that used 152s and 172s, and had I done training there probably would have ended up in the 172.

My guess is that the OP has similar options being in the hectic air that is the NYC area...

I guess this depends on where you're doing the training. There are a couple of airports with schools under the class B (Linden, Morristown, Lincoln Park, Caldwell, Republic, and Westchester, basically) but depending on one's tolerance for distance, it's possible to get out past that, though most of the airports are under the outer ring of the B-space, so you've got some breathing room.

 

[Areeda]

I like Ron's post:

Approach it as though you were hiring an employee. Do plenty of investigation, interview applicants, and get (and follow up with) references.

...

Study like a bandit before every flight, and select an instructor who does most of the teaching on the ground before each flight, and thoroughly debriefs each flight afterward. The money you save on less wasted time in the cockpit will more than cover the extra money you pay for the extra ground training time.

I just want to add a couple of things to the good advice you've received so far:

The total cost of training is much more a function of the efficiency of training than the hourly rate of the aircraft. When you interview prospective instructors I suggest you go up with them for an intro flight. How well do they communicate with you? Does their teaching style match your learning style? And don't forget to ask if they are actively looking for another job? The money spent on a couple flights to find an instructor that fits your style is a good investment.

I wouldn't worry much about the towered vs untowered airport as much as I would about how busy the airport is. I teach in Los Angeles and what I see is that people who only fly at one or the other are uncomfortable with the one they are not used to. Learning to use the radio is not a big deal, you will get plenty of practice by solo. Also 8 aircraft in the pattern with a good tower controller is easier than 4 or 5 at an untowered field especially if any one of them has poor radio skills or no radio at all.

Joe

 

[Mtns2Skies]

I live in the NYC area (just across the river on the NJ side) and it was just a few months ago that I was looking at flight schools. I took a day and drove to most of the ones within about an hour's drive or so to talk with them, get some idea of prices, etc, and to check out the airports a little bit. I ended up creating a spreadsheet with the prices to get a rough idea of the total cost at each school, and used that as just one of the factors for picking a school.

In the end, I decided on a slightly farther non-towered airport (SMQ) over a slightly closer towered one (MMU or CDW). I figured that at least initially, it would make things a lot easier to work in and out of a non-towered airport. Also, I can screw up with one less person yelling at me about it. (I sometimes listen to a couple of LiveATC streams at work, and sometimes listen to FRG. I think it was a good choice to not be mixing it up with bizjets and the like at an airport like MMU or FRG.)

I can't offer you any advice on the 150/152 vs. 172 issue; I had expected I would have needed to choose between those, but the school I'm at has Piper Cherokees instead. I did do a 'discovery flight' at a different airport that used 152s and 172s, and had I done training there probably would have ended up in the 172.



I guess this depends on where you're doing the training. There are a couple of airports with schools under the class B (Linden, Morristown, Lincoln Park, Caldwell, Republic, and Westchester, basically) but depending on one's tolerance for distance, it's possible to get out past that, though most of the airports are under the outer ring of the B-space, so you've got some breathing room.

If you ever plan on a cross country flight you can visit me at N14 the
flying w (It even has a great restaurant, motel and pool at the airport)

 

[pgengler]

If you ever plan on a cross country flight you can visit me at N14 the
flying w (It even has a great restaurant, motel and pool at the airport)

I'll keep that in mind! I'll probably be back at Flying W (driving in) to watch the aerobatics challenge next month. Not so much for the aerobatics themselves, but for the planes. The airport has a great view of the runway for taking pictures, and I got some really nice shots there last year.

 

[Mtns2Skies]

ahh I'll be in colorado during then for the dduration of my summer break

 

[flyingcheesehead]

In the end, I decided on a slightly farther non-towered airport (SMQ) over a slightly closer towered one (MMU or CDW). I figured that at least initially, it would make things a lot easier to work in and out of a non-towered airport. Also, I can screw up with one less person yelling at me about it. (I sometimes listen to a couple of LiveATC streams at work, and sometimes listen to FRG. I think it was a good choice to not be mixing it up with bizjets and the like at an airport like MMU or FRG.)

Several people have said this, and I disagree. I trained at a class C airport, and I'm very glad I did. Having listened to lots of ATC before I started, I was on the radio pretty much right away, but even for someone who hasn't done so, you don't need to worry about comms from day 1, that's why your CFI is there with you - The CFI will handle it, and you can get a good feel for it by listening to what the CFI says.

Frankly, the amount of work required at a towered facility is woefully inadequate, and I know a LOT of pilots who won't go to a towered airport, or at least prefer not to, simply because they're not comfortable on the radio.

It's REALLY easy to go from towered to non-towered - Not so the other way around. Mix it up with the bizjets (or in my case, airliners too) now, and then you'll really know how to do it later on when you need to.

Skylane 271G, you're leaving my airspace, squawk VFR, frequency change approved.

 

[Dudley Henriques]

Hi, I am interested in learning to fly. I am mostly interested in VFR and short tours. I live in NYC.
Does anyone have basic advice for choosing a flight school? I know that going hourly is recommended vs. a package rate. Would you recommend a fully equipped 172 vs. a basic 150 for someone in my situation? Any other advice for a newbie trying to keep costs under control?

Thanks,
AirRider

I like Michelle's approach and would advise about the same.

The 150 is a fine beginning trainer and will save you the empty back seat charge you would be paying for in a 4 place airplane. I have always recommended 150's for primary training for other reasons as well. The 150/152 series are sensitive to control input pressure to the point where the aircraft serves quite well as a teaching tool to acclimate you to pressure response. I've been using 150/152's almost exclusively for giving primary instruction through my entire career. It's a very well designed trainer and you will enjoy flying it I'm sure.

On instructors; take your time with your choice. It's imperative that the communication that takes place between you and your CFI is not only presented to you in a professional manner but also on a level where you feel completely comfortable with the instructor.
Don't worry...you'll know immediately when you have met the right instructor.

Best of luck to you with your flying.

 

[Shipoke]

Well Air , i'll add my opinionI did my training at a Non-towered field which is close to 2 towered fields (MDT and CXY) that worked well for learning . we visited the towered field after i got some of the flying thing down.at one visit ATC asked me to expidite cause i had a 727 coming in behind me ( talk about scared sh*tless) but the instructor assured me we would be fine even though i wanted to just turn and get out of there. and we did just fine, thats where i learned just how well i controled the airplane, Even the controller said i did a good job. So if you do train at Non towered make sure they take you into a Towered field. As far as 150/152 Vs. 172 i cant be of any real help. I did my training in Grummans started out in the Travler (basic plane ) then progressed up to Cheetah,then to a IFR Tiger. This seemed to work well for me.
Well what ever you decide to do, The best lesson i learned and was told over and over again is "FLY THE AIRPLANE you are the PIC if it dont feel right say something and don't do it.
BTW if you get over this way let me know i'm in Harrisburg Pa.
FLY SAFE and learn WELL
Dave G

 

[Mtns2Skies]

Well Air , i'll add my opinionI did my training at a Non-towered field which is close to 2 towered fields (MDT and CXY) that worked well for learning . we visited the towered field after i got some of the flying thing down.at one visit ATC asked me to expidite cause i had a 727 coming in behind me ( talk about scared sh*tless) but the instructor assured me we would be fine even though i wanted to just turn and get out of there. and we did just fine, thats where i learned just how well i controled the airplane, Even the controller said i did a good job. So if you do train at Non towered make sure they take you into a Towered field. As far as 150/152 Vs. 172 i cant be of any real help. I did my training in Grummans started out in the Travler (basic plane ) then progressed up to Cheetah,then to a IFR Tiger. This seemed to work well for me.
Well what ever you decide to do, The best lesson i learned and was told over and over again is "FLY THE AIRPLANE you are the PIC if it dont feel right say something and don't do it.
BTW if you get over this way let me know i'm in Harrisburg Pa.
FLY SAFE and learn WELL
Dave G

I think the non tower near towers works very well for me I have 4 towered airports near me, Philadelphia B airspace, PHL Northeast Philadelphia D airspace, PNE, Atlantic City airport ACY Class C airspace and Trenton Mercer TTN class D airspace