Not too sure about the "relatively obscure procedure" part in a steam gauge world but I definitely agree that partial panel skills should await the development of full panel skills and the attendant procedural knowledge.
Timed compass turns on partial panel
- Thread starter Blueangel
- Start date
You sure the King course isn't just using an OBS as a rotatable compass rose to help visualize the direction and magnitude of turn once the floating DG has been covered, and not as a VOR at all? It could even be turned off or not receiving a station at all. I'm not familiar with the course so I don't.
denverpilot
Tied Down
I didn't see any reference to the King course in the person's post I responded to, only that he said he was having trouble figuring out VORs and intercepts.
So if I was explaining something about an area of operations he wasn't talking about, apologies.
The thing that struck me about the post was it seemed to mash the need to intercept and what to do with the DG into one statement, which was a hint to me that the basics of the VOR knowledge needed first to understand the whole thing, weren't quite there yet.
Jumping straight to "what heading do I fly" makes it harder to visualize what a VOR receiver and OBS are actually showing you. So I was trying to break it out into manageable visualizations and an order to do them on to "get it".
If I misunderstood, apologies. Maybe the "laser beam" idea will help someone else tying to learn all this "old" stuff in a GPS world.
I grew up doing nothing but VOR and some ADF navigation and it doesn't bother me at all. I even am one of those tortured souls who liked tracking to an NDB instead of homing to one... Heh.
(Usually with a home base at APA or nearby, I was tracking to KOA and not a proper NDB, because I liked listening to a baseball game on the way home.
)I *really* like HSIs and I'm going to enjoy it if we ever put an Aspen in the 182... It'll be in HSI mode... a lot.
They just make sense to me.
I'll readily admit Jesse thoroughly locked my brain up solid covering up all my vacuum driven stuff right as I was turning to intercept a DME arc, though.
Mean damn CFIIs. Heh.
In the training world, we flew it and he got my brain moving again. I think in the real world I'd be climbing the hell out of there and calling a missed approach if I had the gas like I should. Haha. Holy hell.
Of course under a hood I also have a tendency to not even see or think about the mag compass and a mental block about tipping my head up to look at it, which is what fried my brain that night. "Can't cheat!" LOL!
Plenty of data with the mag compass and a DME but it threw me.
I just like steam gauges. What can I say? Good brain workout.
MauleSkinner
Touchdown! Greaser!
I feel strongly both ways about that...
There's definitely merit to building full panel skills before breaking off into "abnormals".
On the other hand, my first two lessons were one or two instruments at a time to learn exactly how the individual instruments behave and some of the nuances of what they tell you, which in turn made the full panel flying easier....what the FAA calls a building block approach, I guess.
I get the impression that most of the pilots I train in the jet don't have this understanding of what they're seeing.Granted, it wasn't "turn right heading 180", and I start calculating times on the first lesson.
You might be right. Thread drift happens all the time. I was still thinking in terms of the topic of the thread, so I might be the one who is wrong.
That's about it for the difference. You are thinking in terms of looking at individual instruments to learn what they do and how they react. That's good from the very beginning. I was thinking in terms of the whole partial panel package, including what to do when that DG you just focused on has gone bad.I feel strongly both ways about that...
There's definitely merit to building full panel skills before breaking off into "abnormals".
On the other hand, my first two lessons were one or two instruments at a time to learn exactly how the individual instruments behave and some of the nuances of what they tell you, which in turn made the full panel flying easier....what the FAA calls a building block approach, I guess.
Granted, it wasn't "turn right heading 180", and I start calculating times on the first lesson.
Blueangel
Line Up and Wait
I think that the reason why my CFII is exposing me to the whole partial panel thing early on is that the checkride PTS requires a full instrument approach on partial panel to be successful and it takes time to acquire the skills on flying an approach from start to finish using just the magnetic compass and turn coordinator to make timed turns to headings to fly the approach on partial panel. Figuring this out on a sim is more cost effective than in the airplane. So I told my CFII to do sim time with me tomorrow and he is good for it. I still do want to meet the Kings even if only to get a signed copy of their videos!
I think the concern raised by Bob about timing is that a stage might be early enough that you don't even have the procedural parts of an instrument approach down enough to do them well full panel.
The equally legit flip side is that the pre-approach stage of instrument training needs to be focused on the 20% and there's no reason why it should not include general partial panel abilities, as described by MauleSkinner.
Those are not mutually-exclusive philosophies (I agree with both points) so it kind of depends on exactly what your instructor is doing with you and at what stage. (one very good reason to hesitate criticizing an instructor for a training approach).
I dont think beginning IFR students should be training partial panel. You learned to walk before you could run right? Somehow there is still this "throw them into the pool" mentality. See if your instructor will agree to let you wait on this one, tell him that you are the type that needs to learn on full instruments, THEN do failed instruments after you have mastered full instruments. Compass turns....hard to do. Learn to walk first.
ettsn
Pre-takeoff checklist
denverpilot
Tied Down
Seems really silly to teach partial panel before you know how to do it full panel. Unless partial panel is the normal state of what you rent to fly. Haha.
MAKG1
Touchdown! Greaser!
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MAKG
If indeed that's what's really happening.
Regardless of where you are in the process, ****ing up your first compass turns by reading it backwards sure makes you feel like a new instrument pilot. And most of us did exactly that.