Timed compass turns on partial panel

Blueangel

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Scott
So my big challenge as a new instrument student is figuring out how to fly timed compass turns on partial panel without AI and HI. I have a hard time figure out which way to turn on the darned compass using just the clock and turn coordinator. Any ideas? That and VOR are my weak points so far.
 
"The compass is like a woman, turn towards her and she runs away. Turn away from her and she comes chasing after you"

My private instructor taught me that and it stuck ever since.
 
Problem is that I keep screwing up and getting confused which way to turn for the right heading! For example:

If I am at HDG 270 and need to turn to HDG 180 then which way would I turn on partial panel using only the TC and no HI or AI?

More reason to buy that sim right away to figure this out! I keep stumbling on VOR stuff as well. Ugh! Not a good day.
 
Just a moment while I look at my collection of Practical Test Standards.....

Instrument rating? Can't find timed turns. Instrument flight instructor? Yes, that is the only practical test that requires the applicant to demonstrated timed compass turns.

I can't deny that I had students do timed turns, but it was with the understanding that they would not be on the checkride.

Bob Gardner
 
Problem is that I keep screwing up and getting confused which way to turn for the right heading! For example:

If I am at HDG 270 and need to turn to HDG 180 then which way would I turn on partial panel using only the TC and no HI or AI?

More reason to buy that sim right away to figure this out! I keep stumbling on VOR stuff as well. Ugh! Not a good day.

If your instructor is simply saying "turn to heading 180" rather than giving you a direction of turn with it, find a new instructor.

Otherwise, the ADF compass card was always available in the airplanes I used for training. If you haven't got one of those, try the wind side of your E6B if you've got one, or buy a traffic pattern computer.
 
Correction he is saying turn right heading 180. My bad for forgetting this item. I think that I need to de mystify the whole compass turns on partial panel. That and flying to/from VOR radials.
 
Correction he is saying turn right heading 180. My bad for forgetting this item. I think that I need to de mystify the whole compass turns on partial panel.

So the problem is figuring out how long to turn?

Minimize the math...make sure you've got something resembling a compass rose, especially with 30-degree tic marks. Then all you have to do is count...from 270 the long way around to 180 is going to be 10,20,30,40,50,60,70,80,90 seconds, because there are nine 30-degree increments, each of which is 10 seconds.

If it doesn't come out on an even 30 degrees, WAG a fraction for the last one and make corrections after you roll out.
 
So my big challenge as a new instrument student is figuring out how to fly timed compass turns on partial panel without AI and HI. I have a hard time figure out which way to turn on the darned compass using just the clock and turn coordinator. Any ideas? That and VOR are my weak points so far.

There are timed turns, and there are compass turns. Not sure what you're trying to do.
 
Just a moment while I look at my collection of Practical Test Standards.....

Instrument rating? Can't find timed turns.

But won't he have to do partial panel on the instrument checkride? He can either do timed or compass turns. I think timed turns are more accurate.
 
Problem is that I keep screwing up and getting confused which way to turn for the right heading! For example:

If I am at HDG 270 and need to turn to HDG 180 then which way would I turn on partial panel using only the TC and no HI or AI?

You are going west and you want to go south.

More reason to buy that sim right away to figure this out! I keep stumbling on VOR stuff as well. Ugh! Not a good day.
A sim won't help. Just spend time looking at charts until you are clear on the cardinal directions.

Set your GPS for north up instead of track up until you can maintain situational awareness and have a feel for what direction you are flying in.
 
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Compass turns get easier when ya time them. I 'spose some folks might say it's cheating...
 
To clarify my CFII is using Kings Schools syllabus for IFR training and in lesson 4 we have:

Turns to headings using magnetic compass

Timed turns to headings using magnetic compass

We also attempted these on partial panel today with AI and HI covered.
 
Then I'm having trouble again flying VORs in terms of intercepting radials and so forth.
 
Just a moment while I look at my collection of Practical Test Standards.....

Instrument rating? Can't find timed turns. Instrument flight instructor? Yes, that is the only practical test that requires the applicant to demonstrated timed compass turns.

I can't deny that I had students do timed turns, but it was with the understanding that they would not be on the checkride.

Bob Gardner

Partial panel is in the PTS and timed turns are a good way to do that.

To the OP, one trick is to glance at the CDI to confirm direction of turns. It has numbers on it just like the HI. You really don't want to rush to correct here.
 
As an aside, I learned and taught timed turns. They are part of Pattern A and Pattern B, which I assume are still taught.

For those unfamiliar:

pattern_a.gif


My impression was the main objective was to get an instrument student to include the clock in his or her scan - something that will be needed for timed approaches and holding. Not so much that one would actually time turns in practice.

Again, just my impression/recollection.
 
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As an aside, I learned and taught timed turns. They are part of Pattern A and Pattern B, which I assume are still taught.

For those unfamiliar:

pattern_a.gif


My impression was the main objective was to get an instrument student to include the clock in his or her scan - something that will be needed for timed approaches and holding. Not so much that one would actually time turns in practice.

Again, just my impression/recollection.
+1. Pattern A and B can really help you.
 
Then I'm having trouble again flying VORs in terms of intercepting radials and so forth.
Likely the same problem - not having that internal knowledge of the compass directions / numbers.

If someone were to toss a number at you - say 320 - can you visualize which way that is on a map with minimal thought (more than west, less than north, towards the upper left) or is it something you have to work out?

Practice while you drive your car. What is your heading when you pull out of the driveway - what about as you drive towards work? (Some roads / areas can be difficult due to constant small turns, some are easier.) That right turn was from west to northish. The Michigan left went from north to west to south to west...
 
So my big challenge as a new instrument student is figuring out how to fly timed compass turns on partial panel without AI and HI. I have a hard time figure out which way to turn on the darned compass using just the clock and turn coordinator. Any ideas? That and VOR are my weak points so far.

It's a little embarrassing, perhaps a lot, but I "learned" to think about numeric compass directions and VOR radials by standing in the middle of the floor, initially facing north because it's a good place to start and because it's a direction I inherently know when standing at home by myself like an idiot, thinking of a direction (e.g. 120), and then jumping and rotating to face that way. Rinse, lather, repeat.

Then make it harder. Try a random direction (210), rotate to it, and then mentally determine and jump to the reciprocal. E.g. face 210, and for the reciprocal, start with the thought that 210 is 30 degrees beyond south (180), so the reciprocal is 30 degrees beyond north (360), or 030.

After a while, you will inherently know the directions that are north, south, east and west. 360, 180, 090, 270. You will begin to know the compass direction that are northeast (045, Boston), southeast (135, i.e. 090+45, Florida), southwest (225, i.e. 180+45, California), and northwest (315, 270+45, Washington).

180 and 360 are reciprocals. 090 and 270 are reciprocals. 010 and 190 are reciprocals, etc. Just practice them in your head.

Boom!
 
If I am at HDG 270 and need to turn to HDG 180 then which way would I turn on partial panel using only the TC and no HI or AI?
So your heading west, and you want to turn south? Isn't that a left turn, partial panel or not?

I think you just need a little more mental visualization of what you are doing and what you want to do.
 
It's a little embarrassing, perhaps a lot, but I "learned" to think about numeric compass directions and VOR radials by standing in the middle of the floor, initially facing north because it's a good place to start and because it's a direction I inherently know when standing at home by myself like an idiot, thinking of a direction (e.g. 120), and then jumping and rotating to face that way. Rinse, lather, repeat.

Do you listen to REM while you do this?
 
Get a vertical card compass, done ;)
 
Do you listen to REM while you do this?

Haha. I bow to your wit and extraordinary memory. Completely awesome. :goofy:

"Stand" by REM

Stand in the place where you live
Now face north
Think about direction
Wonder why you haven't before

Now stand in the place where you work
Now face west
Think about the place where you live
Wonder why you haven't before

If you are confused, check with the sun
Carry a compass to help you along
Your feet are going to be on the ground
Your head is there to move you around

So stand in the place where you live
Now face north
Think about direction
Wonder why you haven't before

Now stand in the place where you work
Now face west
Think about the place where you live
Wonder why you haven't before

Your feet are going to be on the ground
Your head is there to move you around
If wishes were trees, the trees would be falling
Listen to reason, season is calling

etc.
 
Minimize the math...make sure you've got something resembling a compass rose, especially with 30-degree tic marks. Then all you have to do is count...from 270 the long way around to 180 is going to be 10,20,30,40,50,60,70,80,90 seconds, because there are nine 30-degree increments, each of which is 10 seconds.

Not to derail, but you just demonstrated what Common Core math curriculum teaches...
 
The big thing to remember in timed turns, is the TIME. Don't worry about the compass. If you know your heading and you know your desired heading, calculate the time for a SRT to that point and as long as you're maintaining the proper turn you'll be pretty close.
 
Which principle did I demonstrate?

You broke down a larger equation into smaller parts and solved those individually, then pieced it all back together to get a final result. Whether or not this is a specific rubric in Common Core is semantic, the point is, this is the concept behind Common Core math.

Find the relationships between the numeric values within a problem, logic will dictate the rest. Growing up, we called it 'easy math' or 'mental math' or 'shortcut math.' Rather than teaching rote memorization of multiplication tables we're now teaching kids to be critical thinkers. Which is fantastic. What maybe isn't so great is the testing component. Standardized testing does not lend itself very well to conceptual testing.

Like I said, I don't want to derail, but you're post just reminded me of a similar conversation that I had with a colleague.
 
You broke down a larger equation into smaller parts and solved those individually, then pieced it all back together to get a final result. Whether or not this is a specific rubric in Common Core is semantic, the point is, this is the concept behind Common Core math.

Find the relationships between the numeric values within a problem, logic will dictate the rest. Growing up, we called it 'easy math' or 'mental math' or 'shortcut math.' Rather than teaching rote memorization of multiplication tables we're now teaching kids to be critical thinkers. Which is fantastic. What maybe isn't so great is the testing component. Standardized testing does not lend itself very well to conceptual testing.

Like I said, I don't want to derail, but you're post just reminded me of a similar conversation that I had with a colleague.


Interesting...
 
Since I live close to King schools, a visit is worthwhile. I think that its a simple stuck on stupid item for me to overcome with regard to VOR and magnetic compass but I know many folks from private going to instrument are challenged as well in this area.

Scott
 
Since I live close to King schools, a visit is worthwhile. I think that its a simple stuck on stupid item for me to overcome with regard to VOR and magnetic compass but I know many folks from private going to instrument are challenged as well in this area.



Scott


We make fun of John and Martha, but I would love to take a lesson from one of them. They have made a LOT of pilots. I did my Private and Instrument with their courses.
 
So your heading west, and you want to turn south? Isn't that a left turn, partial panel or not?

I think you just need a little more mental visualization of what you are doing and what you want to do.
I hope you realize what an excellent answer that is, and how many people get so focused on the trees (the specific numbers) that they miss the forest (the general direction).
 
Yup totally agree and meeting the Kings in real life would be a treat to meet famous aviation educators and pioneers. I agree about getting my head around visualization exercises and I have a real movable compass that I use for sailing that I can play with walking around trying different headings to see if I get the hang of it. Flying this in a sim helps since its less expensive and more can be done in 2 hours than paying 10x in a real plane. So I will do that with my CFII to get partial panel and compass turns down as well as flying VORs.

-Scott
 
Just a moment while I look at my collection of Practical Test Standards.....

Instrument rating? Can't find timed turns. Instrument flight instructor? Yes, that is the only practical test that requires the applicant to demonstrated timed compass turns.

I can't deny that I had students do timed turns, but it was with the understanding that they would not be on the checkride.

Bob Gardner
Sorry, Bob, but I don't understand the comment.

The PTS has, for a long time, had a partial panel task. Leaving aside the glass panel and its backup steam gauges, that means being able to turn to headings and intercept and maintain courses. No, the PTS doesn't specify how that is to be accomplished so, no, nothing specifies whether it is required to be done using timed turns, anticipation/delay compass turns, GPS displays, EFB synthetic vision, very good complete guesses, or divine inspiration.

But how does saying that none of those specific methods are tested help someone who is trying to learn one or more of them?

Or did I miss the point entirely (definitely possible).
 
Yup totally agree and meeting the Kings in real life would be a treat to meet famous aviation educators and pioneers. I agree about getting my head around visualization exercises and I have a real movable compass that I use for sailing that I can play with walking around trying different headings to see if I get the hang of it. Flying this in a sim helps since its less expensive and more can be done in 2 hours than paying 10x in a real plane. So I will do that with my CFII to get partial panel and compass turns down as well as flying VORs.



-Scott


NDBs were my Achilles heal, and there are definitely questions on the written.

Unfortunately the ADF was INOP for my checkride, so I didn't have to demonstrate tracking that Navaid. Damn! ;)
 
Sorry, Bob, but I don't understand the comment.

The PTS has, for a long time, had a partial panel task. Leaving aside the glass panel and its backup steam gauges, that means being able to turn to headings and intercept and maintain courses. No, the PTS doesn't specify how that is to be accomplished so, no, nothing specifies whether it is required to be done using timed turns, anticipation/delay compass turns, GPS displays, EFB synthetic vision, very good complete guesses, or divine inspiration.

But how does saying that none of those specific methods are tested help someone who is trying to learn one or more of them?

Or did I miss the point entirely (definitely possible).

I guess that my poorly reasoned post was based in part on his identifying himself as a new instrument student, which in my mind is less than ten hours. Without knowing anything about the Kings' syllabus I thought that it was pretty early in the game to get into such esoterica. Plus I thought that he was devoting far too much mental energy to nailing down a relatively obscure procedure when there are more important things to work on.

Bob
 
Since I live close to King schools, a visit is worthwhile. I think that its a simple stuck on stupid item for me to overcome with regard to VOR and magnetic compass but I know many folks from private going to instrument are challenged as well in this area.



Scott


You may have given a hint as to the problem right there.

There is ZERO relationship between the OBS and headings on a VOR receiver and the DG. None. (More experienced pilots, wait... I'll explain...)

Think of the VOR receiver as a position locator only at first. It tells you only one thing. What direction you are from the station. That's all it knows. (Or TO the station, but let's stick with from only for the explanation.)

When you turn the OBS to a heading, the receiver is going to show your relationship to a line drawn through the location of the station. It is NOT showing you how that relates to what direction your airplane is pointed (the DG).

Let's say you tune the VOR receiver to a frequency and then twist the OBS to a number of 180. The needle centers and the TO flag is visible. This tells you WHERE you are. NOT what direction you're headed.

180 TO is also 360 FROM. You are directly north of the VOR station. It does not matter what heading your airplane is flying, or if you are even pointed straight up or straight down. The OBS is telling you where you are in relation to the VOR station.

So that's the basis of how to APPLY this knowledge. Let's say now the airp,and has moved a bit and we don't know which direction. Just for the mental game.

You've got the OBS still set on 180 TO needle went to the right. This means if you were flying a heading of 180 also, that the radial you are trying to track is now to your right. West of you. Imagine it out there. The beam from the VOR is a laser beam and you can see it.

The more he needle moves to the right, the further away from your airplane that radial is (kinda... Depends on how far you are from the VOR but to get this figured out in your head, let's pretend you're a number of miles from the VOR ground location and that beam is over there like the Death Star laser, just shining straight to the north of the VOR.)

Anyway, you're probably getting the idea here now. That beam from the VOR doesn't move. And the OBS selects which beam you can " see" on the needle.

NOW let's add the DG. You're flying straight east. That needle is swinging to the right because if you were flying south TO the station on that laser beam, you'd have to turn right to get back on it.

Let's turn around from 090 on the DG and fly a heading of 260. Straight west.

What's that needle going to do?

It's going to start moving back toward the center. You're now getting closer to that laser beam you can see out there shining across your flight path. You are now on an "intercept" course. But it's an awfully steep one. Let's keep flying west and see what happens.

Hey! It kept moving to the center of the VOR head and if we look out the left window, there is that white VOR building right off our left wingtip! Okay let's not turn yet. Let's see what the needle does.

Yep. It keeps moving as we fly past the laser beam and leave it behind us. Now it's off to the left and moving further away from the center.

If this is all making sense so far, the rest is application of the two things we know to put ourselves where we want the airplane to be. Let's say we want to TRACK that laser beam and we want our course to be right on the line of that laser beam. A line drawn right straight north of that VOR and we want to go all the way to the VOR and keep going south on that laser beam.

Let's do a right 180 and head back toward the laser beam. Now we know we can't just fly 090 forever because it'll do the exact same thing it did when we flew across it westbound. It'll center up and then keep going behind us as we cross that laser beam. So we need a plan to intercept this thing and then fly along it.

Here's where some knowledge of how far away you are from the VOR is helpful. If you're really close, the needle moved QUICK across that instrument as you flew over the laser. If you're 50 miles away, it took a long time to get back to the laser beam and fly across it and the needle moved slooooooow.

One can find how far away one is via another VOR radial/laser beam, or maybe you have DME, or let's just say you have situational awareness and know you're about ten miles north of that pretty white funny looking building.

Ok. We are headed 090. The OBS still says 180 TO and that's the laser beam we want to fly on. Let's fly back until that needle is about halfway in, and then we'll use a little trick of the geometry of the instrument itself to intercept that darn laser beam.

The needle is now about halfway in and we know we need to start turning right to eventually end up at 180 going south. But if we simply turn to 180, that needle will stop moving because we aren't getting any closer to that laser beam. It's off there to our left and we'll never get there flying straight south. We'll parallel it forever.

So how do we know how much to turn? Here's the trick...

Draw an imaginary line straight up from where the needle is touching a dot or however your VOR head shows the middle line...and read the heading straight above that needle's location. And fly THAT heading.

I bet it says something like 135. And that, if we think about it, is a 45 degree angle to 180. We're ten miles away. So for now, that'll work. We'll be flying south east toward that laser beam but not so steep as to blow by it when we get there.

Let's fly this for a bit. And look. The needle is moving toward the center from the left, because that laser beam is off to our left and we're angling in toward it. See it shining past us out there? (Use that imagination! What color is it? Do you like green or blue lasers?)

Our OBS, the laser beam detector, is noticing we are getting closer. It keeps moving toward the center. We're almost there. Maybe we'll overshoot. Hmm. Let's figure out how to not blow through that line made by the laser beam over there. How can we do that?

Same trick. Note where the needle is and draw a line straight up to the numbers on the top of the OBS. I bet now it says something like 165. Cool. That's a 15 degree intercept and much slower than a 45. Let's fly that now.

The needle slows down a little more and we can see that we are real close to that laser beam and we are getting closer to the VOR station building out there on the horizon. Cool. Eventually the needle centers up and now we need to do something to fly that "180 TO" laser beam. What is it?

Turn right to 180! Now we are "on the beam"! Sweet. If there's no winds aloft, our DG is set perfectly to the mag compass, we fly 180 and that needle stays right there in the center. That laser beam from the VOR is blinding us through the windshield.

Eventually we get to the VOR and cross over it. The OBS gets a little confused when we are right overhead and the TO flag disappears. It can't see the laser beam!

You keep flying that 180 heading. The OBS can see the laser and its behind us shining on the tail! The flag flips. It says "180 FROM" now. And we keep flying south on our merry ground track.

Now with wind, this changes a bit, since you might be being blown toward or away from that laser beam.

The point of this mental exercise is to get you thinking about the VOR radial, or as I've called it for helping get the imaginary point across, a "laser beam" coming out of the VOR building, having absolutely nothing to do with your airplane's heading on the DG (or your magnetic compass which is what you set that DG from).

It's telling you where you are located from a "line of position" that's created by a radio " beam" (ahhh... WeirdJim won't like that description because that's not how the actual VOR signal works, but bear with me for the analogy!) that comes out of the station.

Once you get over the stumbling block that the OBS head and the DG look similar, (so they must do similar things, right? No!) and realize the OBS is a "beam finder", the rest can fall into place. Think of it as a really weird GPS that only knows how to find lines that radiate from that VOR station the frequency is tuned to.

Learn to read it as "the radial I would need to fly a heading of 180 TO the station would be off to my left/right if I were actually flying that heading"... Then imagine where on the map that "laser beam" would be, and only THEN think about the next part... Which way would my airplane need to fly to get to that laser beam?

Once this clicks, then you can start to play games like overlaying the needle mentally over the DG, which... Is exactly what an HSI does mechanically.

So maybe, if I caught the hint correctly in your post, I think you're trying to mash all those steps together into one before doing them separately. Don't worry about the DG at first. Use the VOR OBS first separately to find where you are from that laser beam.

If you're ever REALLY lost or confused, just spin that OBS until it centers up on a FROM flag, and draw a line on that heading FROM the ground location of the VOR outward. You are ON that line. You don't know how close you are, but you're definitely on that line. If it centers up on say, 260 FROM, you are directly west of that VOR and the OBS "sees" that laser beam.

NOW figure out if that's where you want the airplane to be, and which way to turn to go where you want to go. That the SECOND step. Not the first. The first is knowing where the airplane is from that laser beam.

That help?

Think of that OBS as an old school laser beam detector! :)
 
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