Tiger maintenance

JBrown243 said:
wow. all good advise here. I was very hesitant and for all the same reasons posted. I was not aware of the time limited spar, but, doubt I'd fly 3500hrs. Last plane I owned I only flew 250 hrs in 3 years. That means in 3-5 years I'd have to overhaul it, which I planed for. The big concern is if it was a rental. I've seen how people fly rental aircraft. Kinda Scary. I think I'll make a low offer and if it does not take I'll move along. Thanks for the info
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Check with Fletchair or Air Mods NW to see if they have a spar. Should be around 3 grand. It would take about 20-30 hrs to change it out. Been there done that.
 
Tom-D said:
actually no,, if there are Grummans that will be needing spars, I'm thinking why not get an STC to do the deed.

Lots of readers here believe I hate the Grumman's Which isn't true. The idea came from the Days when I ragged on Ron about them. But that's OK they can think what they want.
The little Grummans aren't my kind of aircraft, I don't enjoy flying them, But I don't hate them.
Some folks here also believe you must have BA in Grumman to work on them, also not true, they are nuts and bolts holding together common off the shelf parts and a Lycoming Engine, Nothing really special about them.
Back to the OPs ideas, I see no good reason to throw away a good aircraft of any make or model just because it has a time life item at its limit. There are legal means to continue in service by replacement of those parts.
I'll bet if you looked hard enough you could find a salvage yard with a good one you could simply swap it out by a Loog book entry.

OBTW I'd still like to know why 9000 hours would scare ya away.
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As long as you can accurately document the time on the used spar, you are good to go.

The spar is not a simple straight tube. It has a slight bend for dihedral on both sides of the section that goes through the cockpit. May not be so simple to produce. If it was, it would of been done already. Even the guy that owns the TC (True Flight) has not started producing any new spars, let alone aircraft, since he bought the .t.c some 10+ years ago.
 
Rcmutz said:
As long as you can accurately document the time on the used spar, you are good to go.

The spar is not a simple straight tube. It has a slight bend for dihedral on both sides of the section that goes through the cockpit. May not be so simple to produce. If it was, it would of been done already. Even the guy that owns the TC (True Flight) has not started producing any new spars, let alone aircraft, since he bought the .t.c some 10+ years ago.
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If some one did it once, some one can do it again.
 
Rcmutz said:
As long as you can accurately document the time on the used spar, you are good to go.
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Time life items should have Identifying info. When you can not identify time on any life limited part, it is junk.
45.16 Marking of life-limited parts.
When requested by a person required to comply with §43.10 of this chapter, the holder of a type certificate or design approval for a life-limited part must provide marking instructions, or must state that the part cannot be practicably marked without compromising its integrity.
 
danhagan said:
Citabrias sell for about 28-30k ... if you owned one, you wouldn't install a new motor at TBO?
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If you're paying 30k to overhaul one of those engines, I'll have what your AP is having lol
 
My airplane is approaching 7000 TT. Where do I find information of life limit for a Lance ?
 
I don’t know if you can get experimental certification just for the hell of it but it’s not hard to get one if you actually need to be experimental.
 
It’s more than the spar it’s the wings too that have time limits. I’m a Grumman owner and recommend tigers all day. Probably just not this one if it’s the one I’m thinking of.
 
Rcmutz said:
Check with Fletchair or Air Mods NW to see if they have a spar. Should be around 3 grand. It would take about 20-30 hrs to change it out. Been there done that.
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Don’t think you can buy one for anywhere near 3 grand anymore. From what I’ve been told all the new ones are gone so only thing left is ones removed form planes and they are probably double that for a low time one.
 
muddy00 said:
Don’t think you can buy one for anywhere near 3 grand anymore. From what I’ve been told all the new ones are gone so only thing left is ones removed form planes and they are probably double that for a low time one.
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Do you think there is a enough need to tool up and make some?
 
Question for Grumman owners:\
Does you maintenance records had a separate records for your Spars?

How are is the time tracked? AFTT ?
 
Tom-D said:
Question for Grumman owners:\
Does you maintenance records had a separate records for your Spars?

How are is the time tracked? AFTT ?
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Tracked by aftt and hopefully logs aren’t lost. I think they have something they do for lost logs but not 100% sure what that is.
 
muddy00 said:
Tracked by aftt and hopefully logs aren’t lost. I think they have something they do for lost logs but not 100% sure what that is.
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That would make the maintenance records of a Grumman much more important than other aircraft, In this case if you loose your aircraft logs and there is no other way to recover AFTT, your aircraft just became junk.
to put it in the short version, If you can't prove time on a time limited item it can not be used.
 
I know AirMods NW has a few wings available ... no idea on price. I own a Tiger and love it.
 
Minshall said:
I know AirMods NW has a few wings available ... no idea on price. I own a Tiger and love it.
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I've met the guys over at Grass Valley, I didn't know they were manufacturing any thing for the aircraft.
 
James331 said:
If you're paying 30k to overhaul one of those engines, I'll have what your AP is having lol
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Not currently an owner (sold my Tiger), but I imagine it would be near the plane value (as in not getting it for less than 20k).
 
danhagan said:
Not currently an owner (sold my Tiger), but I imagine it would be near the plane value (as in not getting it for less than 20k).
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You can get the 150hp rebuilt for 15k ish
 
have you got experience with them? i've seen less than flattering reviews about that place.
 
Isosceles said:
have you got experience with them? i've seen less than flattering reviews about that place.
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No not personally, though there was a 206 operator I knew who was running one of their rebuilds, seen reviews myself too some good some bad, they do offer a warranty. But if it's overhauled to spec, I'd have a hard time paying tons more.
 
James331 said:
But if it's overhauled to spec, I'd have a hard time paying tons more.
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Well, the key part here is "if"... Or they may be booked up a year ahead which can make it impractical
 
Isosceles said:
Well, the key part here is "if"... Or they may be booked up a year ahead which can make it impractical
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I think between the FAA, lawyers, and their warranty it would be cost prohibitive NOT to overhaul to spec
 
Tom-D said:
Question for Grumman owners:\
Does you maintenance records had a separate records for your Spars?

How are is the time tracked? AFTT ?
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I don't think you got a direct answer, so here is mine. There is no separate time tracking of the spar. It is part of the airframe record with the majority of planes having their original spars with time in service equal to the airframe tach time. Replacement serviceable spars are sold with time documentation that is tracked via AFTT from there.

I suspect that relatively few Tigers have timed out their spars. I believe corrosion is the main cause of center spar replacement in Tigers. Intergrannular corrosion along the top just below the skin and in front of where the landing gear attachment bracket bolts to the spar. Easy to check by feel, but can't reliably be seen via flashlight/mirror as the landing gear bracket blocks access from the rear of the spar and the curve of the spar blocks the view from the front.

Even this is pretty rare and mostly an issue in early model years when the spar was not factory primed (maybe 75-77).

Such corrosion may be an issue with wings, as well, but it's not something that I've heard discussed, so it's probably even rarer than corrosion of the center spar.
 
bkspero said:
I don't think you got a direct answer, so here is mine. There is no separate time tracking of the spar. It is part of the airframe record with the majority of planes having their original spars with time in service equal to the airframe tach time. Replacement serviceable spars are sold with time documentation that is tracked via AFTT from there.

I suspect that relatively few Tigers have timed out their spars. I believe corrosion is the main cause of center spar replacement in Tigers. Intergrannular corrosion along the top just below the skin and in front of where the landing gear attachment bracket bolts to the spar. Easy to check by feel, but can't reliably be seen via flashlight/mirror as the landing gear bracket blocks access from the rear of the spar and the curve of the spar blocks the view from the front.

Even this is pretty rare and mostly an issue in early model years when the spar was not factory primed (maybe 75-77).

Such corrosion may be an issue with wings, as well, but it's not something that I've heard discussed, so it's probably even rarer than corrosion of the center spar.
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Thanks for that.
Next question is what does the future hold for these aircraft?
 
Tom-D said:
I've met the guys over at Grass Valley, I didn't know they were manufacturing any thing for the aircraft.
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Not sure who you're referring to. AuCountry is in Auburn, CA, which is pretty close to Grass Valley. AirMods NW is up near Seattle in Granite Falls. I've heard good things about AuCountry, and I've had great experience with AirMods.

As for "new", I never said Ken's wings were new. He has wings and many other parts available. Other folks probably do as well ... point being that a 12,000 plane isn't necessarily end-of-life if replacement parts are available.
 
Ok here is another question. If the engine is running well, and all compression and leak down tests maybe even bore scope inspections of cylinders are good, does it need an overhaul at TBO? I've heard of people running well past TBO with no problems. Is this true or a wives tale? (sorry to open a whole new can of worms)
 
Minshall said:
Not sure who you're referring to. AuCountry is in Auburn, CA, which is pretty close to Grass Valley. AirMods NW is up near Seattle in Granite Falls. I've heard good things about AuCountry, and I've had great experience with AirMods.

As for "new", I never said Ken's wings were new. He has wings and many other parts available. Other folks probably do as well ... point being that a 12,000 plane isn't necessarily end-of-life if replacement parts are available.
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Sorry, the name of the little airport where AirMods is located is called "Grass valley" by the locals.
 
JBrown243 said:
Ok here is another question. If the engine is running well, and all compression and leak down tests maybe even bore scope inspections of cylinders are good, does it need an overhaul at TBO? I've heard of people running well past TBO with no problems. Is this true or a wives tale? (sorry to open a whole new can of worms)
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To understand the answer, you must know what TBO really is.
It is a number of hours the manufacturer believes you can run a NEW engine and when torn down and inspected, all parts will meet the service limits in the overhaul manual's list of sizes.

So to answer your question, TBO only really counts on a new engine, but every one thinks that you can re-set the clock after overhaul, because of the part 135 requirements say time since overhaul.
In fact the TBO number does not apply to part 91 operators, simply because it is called out in a SB.
So, If the manufacturer thinks all the parts in that engine is at or better than service limit, why shouldn't you get service beyond that magic number?
 
JBrown243 said:
Ok here is another question. If the engine is running well, and all compression and leak down tests maybe even bore scope inspections of cylinders are good, does it need an overhaul at TBO? I've heard of people running well past TBO with no problems. Is this true or a wives tale? (sorry to open a whole new can of worms)
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TBO is not mandatory for Part 91. Keep on flying until either you or your A&P looses confidence. (It still needs an annual inspection and signoff.)

-Skip
 
There is only one reason to overhaul any engine in part 91 that is. The owner no longer trusts it.
 
Tom-D said:
There is only one reason to overhaul any engine in part 91 that is. The owner no longer trusts it.
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There more than one reason, personally I'm not really going to run mine much past TBO, especially with how long it will take me and most other pilots to hit TBO on a low time engine, TBO is also a great excuse to put a larger engine in ;)
 
muddy00 said:
It’s more than the spar it’s the wings too that have time limits. I’m a Grumman owner and recommend tigers all day. Probably just not this one if it’s the one I’m thinking of.
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I've been tempted by this plane ever since the original listing came out with 6000 hours TTAF. Looked through the logs and found the error. It's still slightly tempting, but it needs adsb, updates on the 430s and soon an OH...

Other than everything already discussed, something specific about this rig?

Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk
 
Tom-D said:
Thanks for that.
Next question is what does the future hold for these aircraft?
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Tom, my '76 Tiger has accumulated about 3000 hrs in its 42 years. I've been adding about 150 hrs per year. At that rate I will probably part out whats left on my 130th birthday :) .

More seriously, I don't recall seeing many 4 place Grummans with even 5000 hrs AFTT. Maybe because relatively few flight schools operated Grummans, and many that did used the 2 seat types. So with 7000+ hours left on their time limited parts, and an average useage of 90 hrs per year, they are going to outlast any of us. .. and even our children. Until then they will provide Simple, reliable, transportation with class leading speed, handling, and visibility (maybe with the exception of the DA-40... I've never flown a Diamond to know for sure).
 
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