Thunderstorms w/IFR. Go high and dodge the large buildups or go low IMC?

TangoWhiskey said:
I use this app (RadarScope), available on Apple or Android, and change the view to one of the Velocity Products, such as SuperRes Velocity, as shown here:

http://radarscope.tv/faqs/base-velocity/

One of the most valuable apps I've paid for, when the weather is hitting the fan. I can tell if the cell approaching the house has rotation in it or not!
Click to expand...

I have StormScope on my iPhone and saw the building rotation on a storm headed our way before it actually got a tornado warning on it a couple of weeks ago. We got a Citation on the ramp into a hangar just after the warning was issued.
 
JasonM said:
What a day! Today ranks in my top 5.

Almost exactly 1000nm flown between WV and around NC with an afternoon splattered many scattered popup thunderstorms to navigate around.

I went high in the afternoon at 17,000 which got me above most of the clouds and gave me a very clear view of any thunderstorm buildups.

I also got my first taste of what had to be SLD icing. Granted I have a FIKI SR22T, it was -6C and I had what looked like a pretty tame looking cloud in front of me that was maybe another 1000' taller than my alt at 17K. The second I entered it I heard what sounded like heavy rain for a fraction of a second and then I exited the cloud. The windshield glazed over instantly and I looked at the wings (which I already had the TKS system on knowing it was possible known icing) they had a good solid 1/4" of clear ice. It did break apart and slide off from the TKS pretty quickly, but was a real eye opener as to what something like that could have been had you flown in it for any longer of a duration.

I definitely think being up high is better. Days like today down low are bumpy as hell. I couldn't have asked for smoother air up high.

Wonderful flight!
Click to expand...

I call that "splat!" icing. Not in any of the books. You fly into the top of an innocuous looking cloud and splat! you are iced up. I have never flown with TKS...my actions might have been different with it...but I would not have entered a tame-looking cloud near its top. That is where all the big droplets hang out.

Bob Gardner
 
Hank S said:
Nobody has said "go high over the CB."

What we have said is "go high over the layer if you can, then you can see the CBs and visually navigate around them.

A Stormscope is invaluable, I love mine. Much better than NEXRAD / ADS-B time-delayed weather, although it doesn't have the same range; it is, however, real time.
Click to expand...

very much so..and a "real" radar is a game changer...NexRAD great for big picture stuff but pretty much useless for something you are already in an unwanted tango with....
 
Art VanDelay said:
You guys crack me up ! "Go high ?" How high can you go ? I've been at 410 and it ain't high enough. A nice tool if you can afford it is Stormscope. It can see the early building phase of a storm before there's any precip yet.
Click to expand...
In the scenario described, we mean go high so that you are above the low overcast layer and can SEE the areas of substantial vertical development, not fly above the vertical development.

Now if the IFR layers are thick enough that you can't get high enough to see the storms, then the only choice really is go around unless you have onboard radar.

I don't dodge storms I can't see with datalink weather.
 
Henning said:
I go low, I stay VFR underneath so I can see what the energy is doing at the bases, and peak up in the gaps to see what the winds aloft are doing to the anvils, and to see if the towers are played out or building. You have to see the clouds to read the cloud. Safest place I know around convective systems is down on the deck. If it gets bad enough, there's always a road to stick it on, just avoid urban centers.
Click to expand...
That wasn't one of the options. In the OPs scenario, going low means IMC dodging storm cells you can't see.
 
My stormscope has saved me several times. I've had big hits where the ADSB radar was only green and I've gone through heavy precipitation as reported on the radar where the Stormscope was clear. Both cases were non-events.

One situation I was in had a very long (but thin) frontal line of convective storms. I had picked a through spot where the stormscope was clean and the ADS-B radar was showing moderate precipitation. Made it through without any problems... just about 5 minutes of heavy rain. There was a guy not too far from me without any onboard radar or a stormscope and he was freaking out. Asking ATC if there were any holes, etc. ATC advised him that it would be about a 400 mile deviation... so he was basically out of luck. He ended up getting caught up in a heavy cell and was all but begging ATC to help him find an airport he can put it down at to wait out the storms. Made me realize how much I need to appreciate that Stormscope and radar!
 
Fearless Tower said:
That wasn't one of the options. In the OPs scenario, going low means IMC dodging storm cells you can't see.
Click to expand...

Not without onboard radar I don't. I don't do IMC in thunderstorms, way too easy to end up dead. I need to see or at least know exactly where the big energy is. Thing about going up, is you can get ****ed into it. If you stay under, you can always go to ground.
 
Last edited:
Bill Watson said:
If I'm interpreting that correctly that's what flying blind among embedded storms is; IMC in the green paint with scattered convective activity. Nexrad can bite in that circumstance.

The only way I'm willing deal with that in my plane at this time is to either get below the layer or preferably, above the layer and to stay in VMC.

Nexrad is incredibly effective despite the time lag if one stays visual and uses it to calibrate and extend the pilot's vision Seeing around corners is magical.

An IFR clearance relieves you of cloud clearance requirements and enables penetrations when prudent. Excess power for climb is real useful as well.

I've done just enough flying west of the Mississippi to know that what works for me east is just background for western storm systems. Most of my western experience is sans engine and it gave me nothing but respect for how much more energy is involved.
Click to expand...

We all have our personal limits. Not entering IMC is not always an option, and it can be done with a fairly reasonable level of safety quite often. In this particular situation, being in IMC, was a fact of life for several hundred miles in any direction. Simply did not have the performance to get on top. But, there were not thunderstorms in probably 99.9% of the cloud cover that day.

I have no problem with entering IMC if there are thunderstorms provided the thunderstorms themselves are at least a significant distance from me and I'm actively monitoring the situation and feel I understand the particular system that day. When it makes sense, I try to place myself in the direction a thunderstorm isn't going instead of in front of it which certainly helps make up for nexrad delays.

When the system and my aircraft performance allow I most certainly prefer to be on top provided I don't think I'm going to ice up getting there and also provided I can get that high. Skew-t and asking ATC for PIREPS from other aircraft are useful for making these decisions.

To be honest I think the whole nexrad is incredibly delayed thing is a little blown out of proportion. Yes, it can happen, yes I've seen that happen, but the vast majority of the time I see it indicate something close to reality..and yes I have certainly flown aircraft equipped with onboard radar.

Afterall, an airplane with radar, is just one failure away from being an airplane without radar that is up **** creek buried in a mess of a system. Because of this even if I do have onboard radar I don't tango closer to storms than I would without it.

I deal with flying and massive thunderstorms on a very regular basis during the summer and haven't had any experience I would describe as life threatening. The best strategy for each day, storm, and particular airplane you're operating varies.

There is no precise answer. Thinking one strategy is what needs to be done every time is like thinking that you can win every game of chess by playing the same moves each time.

This particular microburst situation obviously wasn't ideal but in reality, it wasn't something I look at and think I was at risk of a fatal accident by any means or even barely close to such a thing. If you would have been an uneducated passenger in the airplane you wouldn't have even known anything exciting occurred.
 
Depends on what else is 'around' the storm cell(s). If you can get on top of the surrounding clouds and not worry about them building up to your altitude, then I'd go high. It's easy to dodge pop-ups when you're above as long as the whole area isn't building into you - then you will just end up descending through gnarly towering cumulus or CBs - dying cumulus with virga and downdrafts/microbursts.

If you go low and you're in IMC then that's essentially embedded thunderstorms and I wouldn't do it unless I routed myself way clear of a single cell, the stuff wasn't building, forecast to build, nor above light to moderate precip. Then only if I had access to in-flight radar (ADS-B, XM, or ship's radar) to make sure it still isn't building. Storms pop up fast and things change a lot in a matter of minutes to hours so I always want to know what's ahead and have an escape plan.
 
Last edited:
jesse said:
To be honest I think the whole nexrad is incredibly delayed thing is a little blown out of proportion. Yes, it can happen, yes I've seen that happen, but the vast majority of the time I see it indicate something close to reality..and yes I have certainly flown aircraft equipped with onboard radar.
Click to expand...

I'm always wary of relying in NEXRAD after all the dire warnings of delays. Generally though the NEXRAD images have generally agreed really well with what I'm seeing with onboard radar. There have been a couple of situations where it changed. One particular trick that works pretty well is to keep track of the relevant movement of the cells in the NEXRAD image and anticipate it when you choose your path. So if the cells are moving from left to right and the intense echoes are straight ahead, then ask for a left deviation even if RIGHT NOW it looks like on the NEXRAD that a right deviation would be slightly better. Of course only get this close if you have onboard radar as well to make sure you don't do something stupid.
 
Last edited:
narchee said:
I'm always wary of relying in NEXRAD after all the dire warnings of delays. Generally though the NEXRAD images have generally agreed really well with what I'm seeing with onboard radar. There have been a couple of situations where it changed. One particular trick that works pretty well is to keep track of the relevant movement of the cells in the NEXRAD image and anticipate it when you choose your path. So if the cells are moving from right to left and the intense echoes are straight ahead, then ask for a left deviation even if RIGHT NOW it looks like on the NEXRAD that a right deviation would be slightly better. Of course only get this close if you have onboard radar as well to make sure you don't do something stupid.
Click to expand...

I agree with this. By predicting where the (NEXRAD) moving cell should end up when you get there, and allowing some extra for delay (and in general avoiding the business end of the cell wherever possible), you'll keep the shiny side up. I also rely on Stormscope and ATC, as well as eyeballs wherever possible. That combination has served me well over the years.
 
Last edited:
NEXRAD weather literally tells you how old the information is on the screen. With this taken into account, you should never find yourself in the middle of a cell.

NEXRAD is incredibly useful as it got me home safely yesterday through a line covering most of the state. You only need half a brain to use one effectively.
 
Cpt_Kirk said:
NEXRAD weather literally tells you how old the information is on the screen. With this taken into account, you should never find yourself in the middle of a cell.

NEXRAD is incredibly useful as it got me home safely yesterday through a line covering most of the state. You only need half a brain to use one effectively.
Click to expand...

Should being the operative word. Unfortunately, just because it does tell you how old it is, doesn't always mean folks pay attention to it.
 
Cpt_Kirk said:
NEXRAD weather literally tells you how old the information is on the screen. With this taken into account, you should never find yourself in the middle of a cell.

NEXRAD is incredibly useful as it got me home safely yesterday through a line covering most of the state. You only need half a brain to use one effectively.
Click to expand...

It tells you how old it is since your WX prepared/broadcast it. It doesn't tell you how old the actual radar sweep was. That could be another 15-20 minutes.
 
narchee said:
I'm always wary of relying in NEXRAD after all the dire warnings of delays. Generally though the NEXRAD images have generally agreed really well with what I'm seeing with onboard radar. There have been a couple of situations where it changed. One particular trick that works pretty well is to keep track of the relevant movement of the cells in the NEXRAD image and anticipate it when you choose your path. So if the cells are moving from right to left and the intense echoes are straight ahead, then ask for a left deviation even if RIGHT NOW it looks like on the NEXRAD that a right deviation would be slightly better. Of course only get this close if you have onboard radar as well to make sure you don't do something stupid.
Click to expand...


I don't follow this logic. If the cells are moving right to left, and you're depicting severe straight ahead, why would you ask for a left deviation? That's towards the direction the cells are moving.
 
TangoWhiskey said:
I don't follow this logic. If the cells are moving right to left, and you're depicting severe straight ahead, why would you ask for a left deviation? That's towards the direction the cells are moving.
Click to expand...
I noticed that too, but assumed it was a typo, or a lysdexic error.
 
jesse said:
We all have our personal limits. Not entering IMC is not always an option, and it can be done with a fairly reasonable level of safety quite often. In this particular situation, being in IMC, was a fact of life for several hundred miles in any direction. Simply did not have the performance to get on top. But, there were not thunderstorms in probably 99.9% of the cloud cover that day.

I have no problem with entering IMC if there are thunderstorms provided the thunderstorms themselves are at least a significant distance from me and I'm actively monitoring the situation and feel I understand the particular system that day. When it makes sense, I try to place myself in the direction a thunderstorm isn't going instead of in front of it which certainly helps make up for nexrad delays.

When the system and my aircraft performance allow I most certainly prefer to be on top provided I don't think I'm going to ice up getting there and also provided I can get that high. Skew-t and asking ATC for PIREPS from other aircraft are useful for making these decisions.

To be honest I think the whole nexrad is incredibly delayed thing is a little blown out of proportion. Yes, it can happen, yes I've seen that happen, but the vast majority of the time I see it indicate something close to reality..and yes I have certainly flown aircraft equipped with onboard radar.

Afterall, an airplane with radar, is just one failure away from being an airplane without radar that is up **** creek buried in a mess of a system. Because of this even if I do have onboard radar I don't tango closer to storms than I would without it.

I deal with flying and massive thunderstorms on a very regular basis during the summer and haven't had any experience I would describe as life threatening. The best strategy for each day, storm, and particular airplane you're operating varies.

There is no precise answer. Thinking one strategy is what needs to be done every time is like thinking that you can win every game of chess by playing the same moves each time.

This particular microburst situation obviously wasn't ideal but in reality, it wasn't something I look at and think I was at risk of a fatal accident by any means or even barely close to such a thing. If you would have been an uneducated passenger in the airplane you wouldn't have even known anything exciting occurred.
Click to expand...
I agree with everything you said here. Also think another poster who suggested the microb might have been wave may be correct.... Not that it really matters.
 
TangoWhiskey said:
I don't follow this logic. If the cells are moving right to left, and you're depicting severe straight ahead, why would you ask for a left deviation? That's towards the direction the cells are moving.
Click to expand...

:D

Fixed. I meant cells moving left to right.

You should hear me reading back transponder codes! I didn't know I was mildly dyslexic until I started flying and kept messing up the transponder code readback. At first I was annoyed that ATC was giving me transposed digits then realized it was me. :redface:
 
narchee said:
:D



Fixed. I meant cells moving left to right.



You should hear me reading back transponder codes! I didn't know I was mildly dyslexic until I started flying and kept messing up the transponder code readback. At first I was annoyed that ATC was giving me transposed digits then realized it was me. :redface:
Click to expand...


Ha, I do it too. I tell my wife "turn right here...". Then, as she starts to turn right, I quickly correct, "no, the OTHER right!" (Left, which is what I meant all along).
 
narchee said:
:D

Fixed. I meant cells moving left to right.

You should hear me reading back transponder codes! I didn't know I was mildly dyslexic until I started flying and kept messing up the transponder code readback. At first I was annoyed that ATC was giving me transposed digits then realized it was me. :redface:
Click to expand...
I've had that happen too - the thing is, when I copy my clearance on the ground, I write the code down and read it back, all before setting the transponder. What usually happens is they say "readback correct", then when I'm handed off to departure I'm told to squawk 4351, not 4531, or some such. And every time I've checked, the code I had punched in to begin with was the one I wrote down. So I'm pretty sure that it's on ATC, at least some of the time.
 
narchee said:
:D

Fixed. I meant cells moving left to right.

You should hear me reading back transponder codes! I didn't know I was mildly dyslexic until I started flying and kept messing up the transponder code readback. At first I was annoyed that ATC was giving me transposed digits then realized it was me. :redface:
Click to expand...

I have an old Cessna ARC transponder. Each digit is controlled by an individual dial-- no keypad to directly enter the numbers. Try rolling each dial to the correct number while trying to remember all four digits: "Ok, squawk 4351, okay, let me see, 9, 8, oops, wrong way, 9, 0, 1, 2,3, 4,5, oops, too far. Back to 4. Okay next number is-- Wait, what was that next digit? Crap."
 
PPC1052 said:
I have an old Cessna ARC transponder. Each digit is controlled by an individual dial-- no keypad to directly enter the numbers. Try rolling each dial to the correct number while trying to remember all four digits: "Ok, squawk 4351, okay, let me see, 9, 8, oops, wrong way, 9, 0, 1, 2,3, 4,5, oops, too far. Back to 4. Okay next number is-- Wait, what was that next digit? Crap."
Click to expand...

Yet another reason to hate ARC radios--9's & 8's on the transponder dials!

dtuuri
 
PPC1052 said:
I have an old Cessna ARC transponder. Each digit is controlled by an individual dial-- no keypad to directly enter the numbers. Try rolling each dial to the correct number while trying to remember all four digits: "Ok, squawk 4351, okay, let me see, 9, 8, oops, wrong way, 9, 0, 1, 2,3, 4,5, oops, too far. Back to 4. Okay next number is-- Wait, what was that next digit? Crap."
Click to expand...


Hmmm if this is problematic for you, please don't attempt anything wild like walking and chewing gum at the same time. LOL. Seriously? Memorizing four numbers long enough to twist four knobs is hard?
 
denverpilot said:
Hmmm if this is problematic for you, please don't attempt anything wild like walking and chewing gum at the same time. LOL. Seriously? Memorizing four numbers long enough to twist four knobs is hard?
Click to expand...

If you think I am an idiot, so be it.

To me, it's like trying to memorize a phone number while your friend is randomly barking out numbers to distract you. If you haven't tried this in a cockpit yourself, don't judge.
 
PPC1052 said:
If you think I am an idiot, so be it.

To me, it's like trying to memorize a phone number while your friend is randomly barking out numbers to distract you. If you haven't tried this in a cockpit yourself, don't judge.
Click to expand...

I'm also an idiot. I have to write down the transponder code because when I read it back along with my N number, it screws up my memory.


"Cessna ONE FOUR NINE FIVE TWO squawk FIVE FOUR TWO NINE"

"Ok, squawking FIVE FOUR TWO NICE for Cessna ONE FOUR NINE FIVE TWO"

Ok, so what was that 1-4-9-5? No crap that's my tail number. 4 5 9 2? Ah damn don't think so. Double crap better confirm...

:lol:

For some reason my head only retains the last numbers I've read out.
 
It's easier for me to remember and read back as fifty four twenty nine.
 
narchee said:
I'm also an idiot. I have to write down the transponder code because when I read it back along with my N number, it screws up my memory.


"Cessna ONE FOUR NINE FIVE TWO squawk FIVE FOUR TWO NINE"
Click to expand...
I *hope* you never got that as a squawk code, or the controller was on something.
 
Tops that high are liable to be bad storms and if the clouds are a higher than your service ceiling, you won't be able to see the build-ups. NEXRAD helps, but has limitations. If you do fly, stay at least 20-30 miles from any heavy precip. and preferably plan a route that keeps you largely in approach radar airspace rather than center. The approach radar is better at helping you avoid cells. Of course, you should always consider grounding when the situation is "iffy."
 
To be honest, I never flew when thunderstorms were remotely close to my flight path, but last weekend I decided to give it a try. I have a stratus 2 and stormscope, and it looked like there would be breaks in the line.

These cells were tall! No way I'd go through them. I kept a distance from them, and even then I could see pretty big changes in my airspeed as I circumnavigated it.

Honestly, I think I would just land before I got to them if I couldn't shoot between them. I posted this pick in another thread, but it shows how helpful on board weather can be. I realize there is some delay with ADSB, but I confirmed the location of the precip with ATC.

flightawaremap_zpsrq5tswat.jpg
 
Plan at least a 20-30 mile berth on any storms and as much as possible try to stay in approach radar coverage areas....the radar is real time, center is nexrad. If you can get high and clear enough to see build ups, that's safer. It's a bad idea to cloud fly with embedded storms in the vicinity.
 
Since IR not rated, I'm going low. Like real low. Like on the ground...:D
 
txflyer said:
Since IR not rated, I'm going low. Like real low. Like on the ground...:D
Click to expand...

That's what I do around TRs even with an IR. I used to fly all over TX, NM, & CO at or below 100' AGL following pipelines. Winter weather was the worst though.
 
Henning said:
That's what I do around TRs even with an IR. I used to fly all over TX, NM, & CO at or below 100' AGL following pipelines. Winter weather was the worst though.
Click to expand...


You live long enough in TX and you'll become scared of the weather.

We had a hand dug storm cellar on our ranch out by Amarillo, and back in the days when there was no cell phones or internet, you were kind of blind to the weather. There was a very old man who lived not far from us and he would drive down to our place and sit by our storm cellar in his car whenever bad weather moved in.

I don't know what was worse, the tornado's or the possible diamondbacks down in that cellar ...
 
txflyer said:
You live long enough in TX and you'll become scared of the weather.

We had a hand dug storm cellar on our ranch out by Amarillo, and back in the days when there was no cell phones or internet, you were kind of blind to the weather. There was a very old man who lived not far from us and he would drive down to our place and sit by our storm cellar in his car whenever bad weather moved in.

I don't know what was worse, the tornado's or the possible diamondbacks down in that cellar ...
Click to expand...

Thing that sucked about winter was the fronts wouldn't move and it was icy in the ground fog with 1/4 mile vis for a few miles punching through. We had a 3 day window in which the patrol had to be flown, and if the front was still sitting across the route on day three, you went anyway. Those were the days I was bouncing along the ground in the PA-12 and climbing for fences to get through the crud.:( At least the collection fields didn't 'need' to be done in the weather, but the main lines, there was hell to pay with everyone including the Feds bitching.

My T shelter on the ranch was drill stem 25' into the ground with welded rebar and multiple layers of mesh reinforced concrete 9" thick around and on top, doubled as the feed room.
 
Last edited:
Henning said:
Thing that sucked about winter was the fronts wouldn't move and it was icy in the ground fog with 1/4 mile vis for a few miles punching through. We had a 3 day window in which the patrol had to be flown, and if the front was still sitting across the route on day three, you went anyway. Those were the days I was bouncing along the ground in the PA-12 and climbing for fences to get through the crud.:( At least the collection fields didn't 'need' to be done in the weather, but the main lines, there was hell to pay with everyone including the Feds bitching.

My T shelter on the ranch was drill stem 25' into the ground with welded rebar and multiple layers of mesh reinforced concrete 9" thick around and on top, doubled as the feed room.
Click to expand...




I wish we had one here, but the price of storm shelters now can get plain stupid. I'm not going to pay tens of thousands for a hole in the ground you run into maybe three times in ten years.

I've done a little research and the neatest/cheapest solution are the huge corrugated galvanized culverts. You dig the hole, they deliver and lower the thing in the ground, and you put the finishing touches on it.

They are extremely strong due to their round shape. They can withstand nuclear pressure if it's set up right. You can get as wild and expensive or cheap as you wish... but pound for pound they are the most cost effective.
 
txflyer said:
I wish we had one here, but the price of storm shelters now can get plain stupid. I'm not going to pay tens of thousands for a hole in the ground you run into maybe three times in ten years.

I've done a little research and the neatest/cheapest solution are the huge corrugated galvanized culverts. You dig the hole, they deliver and lower the thing in the ground, and you put the finishing touches on it.

They are extremely strong due to their round shape. They can withstand nuclear pressure if it's set up right. You can get as wild and expensive or cheap as you wish... but pound for pound they are the most cost effective.
Click to expand...

I built the one I mentioned for under $1500, but my buddy had the forms to pour the concrete. All the steel was oilfield salvage.
 
SbestCFII said:
Plan at least a 20-30 mile berth on any storms and as much as possible try to stay in approach radar coverage areas....the radar is real time, center is nexrad.
Click to expand...

Not really true. Any radar, including Center's, will paint weather. It differs Center to Center and TRACON to TRACON what type of radar they have, so blanket statements in more detail aren't accurate.

The other day, flying through storms near Rockford, the TRACON there said that all they get on their screens is just precip with no intensity whatsoever - There's precip or there's not. MSN TRACON gave us a tour and showed us how they can see three levels of intensity on their radar, and they have a computer nearby pulling NEXRAD from the web as well.

So, the best way to go is to tell ATC what you have available on board, its limitations, and what you want to do, and ask them to advise you within the limitations of their own equipment. And that works whether you're talking to New York Center or Podunk Approach.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top