Threadjack from ILS approaches

For the pilot of the Navy plane, yes. As for the NFO (you) you're pretty much just along for the ride.
Guess you've never been an NFO in a Navy carrier jet. You are definitely not "just along for the ride," especially with an inexperienced pilot, and even more so when he doesn't know he needs glasses.
 
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Guess you've never been an NFO in a Navy carrier jet. You are definitely not "just along for the ride," especially with an inexperienced pilot, and even more so when he doesn't know he needs glasses.

No, I was Navy Enlisted. But I do know the difference between a trained Naval Aviator (pilot) and an NFO (non-pilot). And I do know for a fact the Navy (or any military service) does not allow non pilots to manipulate the controls of an aircraft irregardless of their civilian ratings.
 
No, I was Navy Enlisted. But I do know the difference between a trained Naval Aviator (pilot) and an NFO (non-pilot). And I do know for a fact the Navy (or any military service) does not allow non pilots to manipulate the controls of an aircraft irregardless of their civilian ratings.
So much for your knowledge of military flight rules. In fact, the USAF required its WSO's to obtain stick time -- it was part of our semi-annual flight training requirements. As for the Navy, while we had no controls in the A-6, that didn't mean we weren't helping and even evaluating our pilots' performance in other ways, and S-3 CO-TAC's often flew the airplane -- as they were required to be able to do.
 
But the difference between one dot and full scale represents a much greater absolute vertical distance at 2000 AGL than it does at 500 AGL, which is why I'm more concerned with one dot low close to the ground as opposed to back near the FAF.
Actually if you think about it, that angular behavior is another reason to be as concerned about being a dot or two low further out as you are near in. The design of ILS protection does provide greater minimum clearance earlier in the approach than at the DA/MAP in terms of feet but maybe not in terms of angle (dots).
 
Sorry, I'm not buying that Ron. You're embellishing (again). :frown2:
Sorry, ex-Navy enlisted man -- you simply don't know what you're talking about on this one, and this retired officer who served as both a Navy NFO and USAF WSO does. Feel free to check what I said in OPNAVINST 3710.7 and USAF regs 60-16 and 60-1 (including the MAJCOM supplements for the RF-4C and F-111). Adios.
 
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Actually if you think about it, that angular behavior is another reason to be as concerned about being a dot or two low further out as you are near in. The design of ILS protection does provide greater minimum clearance earlier in the approach than at the DA/MAP in terms of feet but maybe not in terms of angle (dots).
I'm not sure I follow you, Lance... are you saying that there are cases where obstacles penetrate into the glidepath itself (less than full scale deflection) inside the FAF/published glideslope intercept? I thought there was always a buffer between full-scale deflection on the GS CDI and any obstacles within some lateral distance of the FAC. I don't assume that the angular size of the buffer is any larger (or even, not smaller) farther out, and of course I know that once deflection is full scale you have no vertical course guidance and could be anywhere. I was only counting on the fact that the glidepath itself is wider farther out and assuming that the TERPS criteria ensure that no obstacles can ever penetrate into it inside the FAF. But I haven't been able to find any definitive reference that says one way or the other.
 
John Collins, please check me on this...

Full deflection of the GS is a 0.7 degree angle off the GS centerline. The GS is set to a nominal 3.0 degree angle. That means full-scale deflection low is 2.3 degrees. The OCS is 40:1, or 1.4 degrees, which is farther below full scale deflection than full scale deflection is below the GS center.

While it's true that this means you get less clearance in feet above the obstacle as you get closer in, you are always guaranteed clearance even down to full-scale deflection.
 
Sorry, ex-Navy enlisted man -- you simply don't know what you're talking about on this one, and this retired officer who served as both a Navy NFO and USAF WSO does. Feel free to check what I said in OPNAVINST 3710.7 and USAF regs 60-16 and 60-1 (including the MAJCOM supplements for the RF-4C and F-111). Adios.

Thanks for the references, they back up my original contention on the subject.

Got an email back this morning from one of my old crewmembers from the airline (retired AF Colonel) Here is his response:

There was a WSO "flying" syllabus which by reg was limited to basic aircraft control...nothing below 500' AGL, and certainly nothing that involved tactical maneuvering. Individual pilots and WSOs would and did get more advanced with their crew coordination, but it wasn't the norm, nor sanctioned.

Given your propensity to embellish the facts this falls right in line.


 
I like the KISS method of keeping to the center, and correcting towards the center no matter how far out I am.
 
Thanks for the references, they back up my original contention on the subject.

Got an email back this morning from one of my old crewmembers from the airline (retired AF Colonel) Here is his response:

There was a WSO "flying" syllabus which by reg was limited to basic aircraft control...nothing below 500' AGL, and certainly nothing that involved tactical maneuvering. Individual pilots and WSOs would and did get more advanced with their crew coordination, but it wasn't the norm, nor sanctioned.
Like I said -- AF WSO's were not only permitted but required to fly the plane.

Given your propensity to embellish the facts this falls right in line.
Given your propensity to ignore what it says in the book, your response falls right in line. It's also interesting that after dismissing every post I make quoting your bosses at FAA HQ, you dismiss the published regs and rely instead on what some anonymous "retired AF Colonel" told you.
 
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I'm not sure I follow you, Lance... are you saying that there are cases where obstacles penetrate into the glidepath itself (less than full scale deflection) inside the FAF/published glideslope intercept? I thought there was always a buffer between full-scale deflection on the GS CDI and any obstacles within some lateral distance of the FAC.
No, if you are on the centerline there shouldn't be any obstacles to hit if you flew with a full scale up (top dot or mark) indication assuming your GS indications are perfect (when's the last time you had that checked?). My point was that on some approaches the vertical center (or bottom for that matter) of the GS may come closer to an obstruction located further out on the approach simply because that's where the tall obstruction is. In addition, as you wander laterally your obstacle free buffer zone below may be diminished before you see a full lateral deflection on the LOC.

I don't assume that the angular size of the buffer is any larger (or even, not smaller) farther out, and of course I know that once deflection is full scale you have no vertical course guidance and could be anywhere. I was only counting on the fact that the glidepath itself is wider farther out and assuming that the TERPS criteria ensure that no obstacles can ever penetrate into it inside the FAF. But I haven't been able to find any definitive reference that says one way or the other.

Part of the confusion here is that the TERPS requirements dictate the obstacle clearance requirements but in the real world the obstacle closest to the protected area can be anywhere even though they are allowed to be closer near the runway than out at the FAF.

One good source of this kind of information in a relatively easy to understand format is found in John Eckalbar's latest book: "Instrument Flying Update". I went looking for my copy last night when this came up but haven't found it yet. I may have loaned it out but if it's around here and I turn it up I'll try to post the actual limits of the protection.
 
Like I said -- AF WSO's were not only permitted but required to fly the plane.

Given your propensity to ignore what it says in the book, your response falls right in line. It's also interesting that after dismissing every post I make quoting your bosses at FAA HQ, you dismiss the published regs and rely instead on what some anonymous "retired AF Colonel" told you.

After retiring, are NCOs allowed to disagree with Officers?

I have a friend who is an active staff sargeant, and his dad is a retired Major, but from a foreign army. How do you handle that? He won't salute his dad, but his father still tries to boss him around, even though he's 35!
 
I wonder if i could program a filter that would hide Ron / Rotor Wing arguments so that I don't have to read that crap anymore. Anyone interested in sponsoring the development costs?
 
I wonder if i could program a filter that would hide Ron / Rotor Wing arguments so that I don't have to read that crap anymore. Anyone interested in sponsoring the development costs?

There's a difference between an argument and mere contradiction:

 
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