Those based at fields with potential tower closures...

Dav8or

Dav8or

Final Approach
Joined
Jan 6, 2007
Messages
5,174
Location
Discovery Bay, CA
Display Name
Display name:
Dave
... how will it effect you? I'm not based at a towered airport anymore and the one I used to be based at will always be towered. Many of the fields near by me are possibly scheduled to have their tower closed in the sequestration silliness, but I don't feel I'm qualified to speak to how bad non towered life will be at these fields. So I'm really just asking the opinion of those that are based at these targeted airports, what do you think? No biggie, or look out! It's raining metal!
 
My home drome is on the "close the night shift list"...honestly, they should...I have flown in many night after midnight to no ATIS, just a blank radio...I call them up and tell them I don't have an ATIS and they give it to me...that tells me that there is a not much of a demand for an ATIS on that field at that time of night...
 
My home field can get busy. The local paper said it was the 30th busy GA airport in the nation, not sure how true that is. I would have concerns due to the amount of training and jet use of the field (KCMA). I won't move my plane, I will still fly but won't be happy without ATC on the field.
 
SQL, which is four miles away from my home drome, is on the list. I would probably avoid it on weekends, but then I try to avoid flying on weekends anyway.
 
I'm based at KOLM. We have a contract tower. Talking to the airport administrator today he's fairly certain we would lose the tower. Instead of Class D from 8 am to 8 pm, we'd be Class E 24x7. Given the folks we get in here now and then, I think we'd miss the tower. They're a great bunch, to boot.

On the other hand, I think a lot of the noise coming from Disneyland East is a bunch of scare tactics to make the Repubs cave and go for more tax increases.
 
At KFUL, they could probably do it with little impact if they keep it open on weekends. The biggest problem we have to any significant change to tower operations is that we have a lot of rotary wing traffic, with Cal Fire, CHP, Anaheim PD and a Medivac operation on the field. The helos often use a different pattern that isn't well known to many of the the fixed wing pilots, and if they kept using it without a tower, it could get hazardous. (And, if the helos use a normal pattern, we're going to get a lot of noise complaints.)

The real headache is the 1-2 of potentially closing both El Monte and Fullerton, with what I imagine could be problems getting VFR advisories from SoCal Approach if their staff time is cut. The would shove a lot of non-communicating traffic into a pretty small box below the LAX Class B.

But hey, no one in Congress will lose a moment of sleep if their (collective, bi-partisan) stupidity causes a mid-air.

Jeff
 
KILG-Wilmington Delaware is on the 'list'. We have corporate jets in and out, National Guard C130's and blackhawks, busy flight training at two on field schools, it will be interesting.

And who could forget the VP himself......Airforce 2 calls ILG home on occasion.
 

Attachments

  • kilg.JPG
    kilg.JPG
    197.7 KB · Views: 8
Last edited:
GMascelli said:
KILG-Wilmington Delaware is on the 'list'. We have corporate jets in and out, National Guard C130's and blackhawks, busy flight training at two on field schools, it will be interesting.
Click to expand...

Don't forget the CAP squadron that flies 2 to3 traffic reporting flights a day and the Hawker Mx Facility. I wonder if PNE is on the list.
 
AdamZ said:
Don't forget the CAP squadron that flies 2 to3 traffic reporting flights a day and the Hawker Mx Facility. I wonder if PNE is on the list.
Click to expand...

PNE is on the list.....

CXY Capital City Harrisburg PA
IPT Williamsport Regional Williamsport PA
LBE Arnold Palmer Regional Latrobe PA
LNS Lancaster Lancaster PA
PNE Northeast Philadelphia Philadelphia PA
RDG Reading Regional-Carl A. Spaatz Field Reading PA​


http://www.faa.gov/news/updates/media/Facilities_Could_Be_Closed.pdf
 
Last edited:
Ghery said:
I'm based at KOLM. We have a contract tower. Talking to the airport administrator today he's fairly certain we would lose the tower.
Click to expand...

I'm at KLBE and we're in the same position. We have a flight school, a corporate airline and Spirit flying in and out of here. My understanding is that KPIT would be handling the traffic in and out.

Currently, KJST approach handles the first leg leaving the airport, but it's my understanding that we'll be losing that service this summer. At that point, we'll either talk to KPIT or Cleveland Center.
 
AdamZ said:
Don't forget the CAP squadron that flies 2 to3 traffic reporting flights a day and the Hawker Mx Facility. I wonder if PNE is on the list.
Click to expand...

And don't forget 2 or more flights per week by Air Force two. I wouldn't be surprised if that in itself is justification for the FAA to keep the tower at KILG staffed.
 
Luvrv8 said:
My home field can get busy. The local paper said it was the 30th busy GA airport in the nation, not sure how true that is. I would have concerns due to the amount of training and jet use of the field (KCMA). I won't move my plane, I will still fly but won't be happy without ATC on the field.
Click to expand...
KCMA has 365 flight ops per day which is on the higher side of an average G.A. field.

GMascelli said:
KILG-Wilmington Delaware is on the 'list'. We have corporate jets in and out, National Guard C130's and blackhawks, busy flight training at two on field schools, it will be interesting.
Click to expand...
KILG shows this field as having 184 flight ops per day making it below average traffic.

Your busy G.A. airports typically have in excess of 400 ops per day.
Your average airport has around 300 ops per day.
Your below average has under 200 flight ops per day.

For example Teterboro, NJ (KTEB) is a very busy G.A. airport and it has 420 flight ops per day.
Van Nuys, Ca (KVNY) would be considered an extremely busy G.A. airport with 1381 ops per day.

Some of the so-called International airports like Jacksonville, FL (KJAX) barely have
enough flights to justify a tower at all (253 flight ops).

All the statistics for any U.S. Airport can be found at Airnav.com.
 
Last edited:
Otto the pilot said:
CAP does traffic reporting?
Click to expand...

The 22nd Squadron of the Delaware Wing does. They have a sweet deal with the state to do traffic. Its not the traffic that used to be announced from a chopper via some AM station or on TV but they report to Del DOT.

Lee Kitson who posted above flies a lot of the traffic flights for them. Its a pretty good deal. DEL DOT pays or reimburses CAP for fuel and they have a pilot and spotter and report on back ups etc.

In Delaware CAP also flies Drug Interdiction. Lee can correct me but basically I think they just fly LEOs who look for pot fields. The CAP however has no enforcement authority at all they just fly. For such a small state they have the most opportunities to fly of any Wing that I know of. Granted its often just a giant clockwise circle but its flight time. I hear Lee is going to learn to turn left pretty soon LOL.:rofl:
 
Take a deep breath.
The ending of the world that Bam is prophesying is agitprop aimed at the sheeple.
Nothing will happen to these control towers because they are all ready funded for FY 2013.
And even if by some mysterious rupture in The force they did close and the TSA was sent home, nothing would happen except for the better.

Don't be a sheeple.
 
A tower is never required for a plane to fly (aerodynamically). I've flown to uncontrolled airports and have been one of six in the pattern. You don't need a tower UNLESS the morons in the area don't follow proper procedures and use the AIM. It can get scary when everyone is doing something different. I was in a crowded pattern once and a guy is trying to do a straight in approach, cutting off at least four aircraft. That was Watsonville, CA on the weekend. :hairraise:
 
I doubt anyone will notice at my home field, it hasn't needed a tower in years. Piston traffic will have to mix with jet traffic, and that rarely goes well with amateur pilots at the wheel, but there isn't that much of either.

The field just north of me will have crashes and people will die. There is intensive activity, crossed and parallel runways, jet traffic and weekend amateurs. It is the busiest GA airport in the state.
 
DavidWhite said:
It'll be a **** show.
Click to expand...

I'm assuming from your profile that you fly out of San Marcos, TX. I'm wondering, is it just the Redbird folks there that are causing all the traffic? I spent several days on that field back in March of 2010 and at that time, there was no tower and it really didn't need one either. Pretty quiet field. Sounds like things have really changed?
 
At KBJC the only thing I'll be worried about is all of the jet traffic. I'll just land on the smaller parallel runway.

They did JUST build a new tower though, be kind of funny to have it close so soon after opening.
 
"Oh think of the children!"

It will reduce staff at PIA tracon and that will affect guys I know, and I'm sorry for that. However, the OVN traffic count really makes a 24 hour tower hard to justify...

:(
 
Having been previously based at KIPT for 5 years, getting rid of the tower will be very welcome. The guy who always seems to be there is a real jerk and not very good at his job. There's no radar and you can get ahold of New York Center on the ground. Tower itself is argumentative and a pain, and there's minimal traffic. Getting rid of them will be a significant improvement for the airport.

I think that there are a number of airports that should have their towers closed either completely or partially vs. what they are now. There are some that will be hurt by tower closure. I would hope that they are more selective as to which towers they close than the list of probables.
 
Dav8or said:
I'm assuming from your profile that you fly out of San Marcos, TX. I'm wondering, is it just the Redbird folks there that are causing all the traffic? I spent several days on that field back in March of 2010 and at that time, there was no tower and it really didn't need one either. Pretty quiet field. Sounds like things have really changed?
Click to expand...

Redbird, Texas State, Berry, and most of the flight school planes from Austin come there to do pattern work.
 
I'm not based at Cheyenne, but it's on the list. Honestly, they probably don't need a tower. The 5 or so times I've gone there the controllers had no idea what was even going on and the hours there are already quite limited.. just not a lot of traffic from my experience.

In AZ there are 4, none of them home for me. However I do fly to KRYN to do their ILS when I don't feel like braving the uncontrolled ILS at KCGZ which is a ZOO. I hope they keep KRYN open, it has an ILS and it has a good deal of other training in that area for people in Tucson. The last thing Arizona needs is another Casa Grande airport... I odn't know about the others, I've never been there.
 
It's going to be a re-training experience for most of the folks based at HEF that are used to getting SFRA squawks from the tower (and closing SFRA flight plans after landing).

Significantly greater pain in the *** than it already is.
 
Why not put Reagan National on the top of the list and show Congress the effect of their inaction?
 
With all this talk about tower closures, think how it will affect those who are going for their private licences. I don't think thay're going to be changing these requirements!
§ 61.109 Aeronautical experience.

(a) For an airplane single-engine rating. Except as provided in paragraph (k) of this section, a person who applies for a private pilot certificate with an airplane category and single-engine class rating must log at least 40 hours of flight time that includes at least 20 hours of flight training from an authorized instructor and 10 hours of solo flight training in the areas of operation listed in § 61.107(b)(1) of this part, and the training must include at least— [...] (5) 10 hours of solo flight time in a single-engine airplane, consisting of at least [...] iii) Three takeoffs and three landings to a full stop (with each landing involving a flight in the traffic pattern) at an airport with an operating control tower.

Also required for multi, helicopter, powered lift, weight shift control, and powered parachute. Students are going to have to be creative to avoid increasing costs if they don't have a nearby towerd airport left; maybe do it on their solo cross country.
 
A number of parts of the country don't have a particularly close towered airport. It'll be harder now. I suppose I don't have sympathy there - student convenience isn't worth a great deal of extra cost for the government. Students need XCs anyway.
 
Otto the pilot said:
A tower is never required for a plane to fly (aerodynamically). I've flown to uncontrolled airports and have been one of six in the pattern. You don't need a tower UNLESS the morons in the area don't follow proper procedures and use the AIM. It can get scary when everyone is doing something different. I was in a crowded pattern once and a guy is trying to do a straight in approach, cutting off at least four aircraft. That was Watsonville, CA on the weekend. :hairraise:
Click to expand...

He didn't cut anyone off as he had the right-of-way.
 
Tower closure at my field will have negligible effect.
 
This list makes me sad. KMFD is my favorite airport and has trained many many students around here in controlled field operations, and I've spent several weekends there with CAP. The airport manager was always quite accommodating, as was the base next door.

I've had a chance to land at each of the OH airports on this list. I guess stuff happens...
 
flav8r said:
Under what rules does he have right of way?
Is he a blimp? :dunno:
Click to expand...

§ 91.113 Right-of-way rules: Except water operations.

(a) Inapplicability. This section does not apply to the operation of an aircraft on water.

(b) General. When weather conditions permit, regardless of whether an operation is conducted under instrument flight rules or visual flight rules, vigilance shall be maintained by each person operating an aircraft so as to see and avoid other aircraft. When a rule of this section gives another aircraft the right-of-way, the pilot shall give way to that aircraft and may not pass over, under, or ahead of it unless well clear.

(c) In distress. An aircraft in distress has the right-of-way over all other air traffic.

(d) Converging. When aircraft of the same category are converging at approximately the same altitude (except head-on, or nearly so), the aircraft to the other's right has the right-of-way. If the aircraft are of different categories—

(1) A balloon has the right-of-way over any other category of aircraft;

(2) A glider has the right-of-way over an airship, powered parachute, weight-shift-control aircraft, airplane, or rotorcraft.

(3) An airship has the right-of-way over a powered parachute, weight-shift-control aircraft, airplane, or rotorcraft.

However, an aircraft towing or refueling other aircraft has the right-of-way over all other engine-driven aircraft.

(e) Approaching head-on. When aircraft are approaching each other head-on, or nearly so, each pilot of each aircraft shall alter course to the right.

(f) Overtaking. Each aircraft that is being overtaken has the right-of-way and each pilot of an overtaking aircraft shall alter course to the right to pass well clear.

(g) Landing. Aircraft, while on final approach to land or while landing, have the right-of-way over other aircraft in flight or operating on the surface, except that they shall not take advantage of this rule to force an aircraft off the runway surface which has already landed and is attempting to make way for an aircraft on final approach. When two or more aircraft are approaching an airport for the purpose of landing, the aircraft at the lower altitude has the right-of-way, but it shall not take advantage of this rule to cut in front of another which is on final approach to land or to overtake that aircraft.

[Doc. No. 18334, 54 FR 34294, Aug. 18, 1989, as amended by Amdt. 91-282, 69 FR 44880, July 27, 2004]
 
roncachamp said:
§ 91.113 Right-of-way rules: Except water operations.

(g) Landing. Aircraft, while on final approach to land or while landing, have the right-of-way over other aircraft in flight or operating on the surface, except that they shall not take advantage of this rule to force an aircraft off the runway surface which has already landed and is attempting to make way for an aircraft on final approach. When two or more aircraft are approaching an airport for the purpose of landing, the aircraft at the lower altitude has the right-of-way, but it shall not take advantage of this rule to cut in front of another which is on final approach to land or to overtake that aircraft.
Click to expand...
The last time I passed this by the local FAA at a seminar the response was that an aircraft at an uncontrolled field that takes advantage of a straight in approach while others are lined up for landing within the pattern must declare an emergency or be less maneuverable.

While I am familiar with rule you have quoted I believe it to be misleading.
Otherwise, why bother to fly into the pattern if you can just cut everyone off by coming straight in?

Let me check again and see if I get a different response..:dunno:
 
flav8r said:
The last time I passed this by the local FAA at a seminar the response was that an aircraft at an uncontrolled field that takes advantage of a straight in approach while others are lined up for landing within the pattern must declare an emergency or be less maneuverable.
Click to expand...

A response not supported by the FARs.
 
ChrisK said:
This list makes me sad. KMFD is my favorite airport and has trained many many students around here in controlled field operations, and I've spent several weekends there with CAP. The airport manager was always quite accommodating, as was the base next door.

I've had a chance to land at each of the OH airports on this list. I guess stuff happens...
Click to expand...

??????
The towers may close, not the airports....
 
Things that make you go hmmm...

Getting rid of Santa Monica tower while keeping Gillette, WY.

I see that Boca Raton, FL is also on the hit list. I think they originally got their tower, in part, because of a midair.
 
roncachamp said:
He didn't cut anyone off as he had the right-of-way.
Click to expand...

It is my understanding that aircraft on final have priority, ref: 14CFR91.113(g) regardless of whether they are IFR or VFR. Someone please correct me if this is not so.

Something for VFR folks to understand though is that if an IFR flight cleared for an instrument approach at a non-towered airport does not land, it's not as simple as a VFR go around. The IFR flight must begin the execution of the published missed approach procedure, change frequency to approach control and possibly end up at a holding point quite a few miles from the airport before getting clearance to try again. The hazard of close encounter of the IFR/VFR kind is especially acute when it's MVFR. I always dread breaking out at a few hundred feet AGL after a straight in instrument approach hoping not to encounter scud runners or folks just buzzing visually around the pattern without radio calls. None of this applies if it's VMC and I'm cleared for a visual approach. In that case I'm just another see and avoid chum in the pattern so on visual approaches I'm always thinking about normal pattern entries even if TRACON lines me up for a straight in five mile out.
 
gprellwitz said:
With all this talk about tower closures, think how it will affect those who are going for their private licences. I don't think thay're going to be changing these requirements!
§ 61.109 Aeronautical experience.

(a) For an airplane single-engine rating. Except as provided in paragraph (k) of this section, a person who applies for a private pilot certificate with an airplane category and single-engine class rating must log at least 40 hours of flight time that includes at least 20 hours of flight training from an authorized instructor and 10 hours of solo flight training in the areas of operation listed in § 61.107(b)(1) of this part, and the training must include at least— [...] (5) 10 hours of solo flight time in a single-engine airplane, consisting of at least [...] iii) Three takeoffs and three landings to a full stop (with each landing involving a flight in the traffic pattern) at an airport with an operating control tower.

Also required for multi, helicopter, powered lift, weight shift control, and powered parachute. Students are going to have to be creative to avoid increasing costs if they don't have a nearby towerd airport left; maybe do it on their solo cross country.
Click to expand...

Let's see. Close FTG, BJC towers, no night towers for APA or COS which leaves....Class B DEN.

Call me when DIA let's student pilots practice there.
 
Last edited:
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top