This magenta line business...

[petrolero]

I wrote a whole bunch of crap about stuff I do when I fly. Then I deleted it because that isn't the question at hand.

Several folks have said that if you can't nav by P/DR you are a magenta line follower. Well yeah. But is that the best definition? P/DR is part of the primary PTS so we have all done it and should remember the basics. So the can't part narrows the field too much I think.

How about a more nuanced definition? What if you are an otherwise competent pilot who is lulled into a lack of SA by letting the ap fly the magenta line? I know I fight the complacency thing on every flight by doing a lot of little things to keep my head in the game.

 

[jspilot]

No, just seeking clarification on your comments, which in themselves were obviously meant to be insulting to airline pilots.

I certainly did not mean for the comments to insult airline pilots. I have the utmost respect for them. What I was attempting to highlight is, if we are going to make statements about the reliance on magenta lines and the relative skills of pilots who depend on the line for navigation, then I think we should e prepared to face the reality that, many pilots who do this for a living, are in fact, more reliant on needles and GPS and programmed navigation aids than the standard VFR private pilot will ever be.

So maybe this scenario will elicit some thoughts. A person walks in and says to a CFI, " prepare me to fly for the airlines, that's what I want to do with my life, 100% sure." When it comes to navigation, that CFI should absolutely teach pilotage and dead reckoning, but clearly that student needs to be taught the ways to use the "magenta line." It's just tough to understand why that person should be discouraged from using a tool that makes navigating easier simply because, "automation can fail." Automation is here and people in aviation now are ever more reliant on it to fly. I know for a fact that the school i trained with purchased a 182 with a glass cockpit because the director felt students should have experience with a more automated and technologically advanced cockpit than the round gauge 172's I learned on. This is the mindset that I would imagine is becoming common ground-- expose students to the basics, but teach the students the ways of now. I see nothing wrong with that.

 

[LDJones]

I certainly did not mean for the comments to insult airline pilots. I have the utmost respect for them. What I was attempting to highlight is, if we are going to make statements about the reliance on magenta lines and the relative skills of pilots who depend on the line for navigation, then I think we should e prepared to face the reality that, many pilots who do this for a living, are in fact, more reliant on needles and GPS and programmed navigation aids than the standard VFR private pilot will ever be.

So maybe this scenario will elicit some thoughts. A person walks in and says to a CFI, " prepare me to fly for the airlines, that's what I want to do with my life, 100% sure." When it comes to navigation, that CFI should absolutely teach pilotage and dead reckoning, but clearly that student needs to be taught the ways to use the "magenta line." It's just tough to understand why that person should be discouraged from using a tool that makes navigating easier simply because, "automation can fail." Automation is here and people in aviation now are ever more reliant on it to fly. I know for a fact that the school i trained with purchased a 182 with a glass cockpit because the director felt students should have experience with a more automated and technologically advanced cockpit than the round gauge 172's I learned on. This is the mindset that I would imagine is becoming common ground-- expose students to the basics, but teach the students the ways of now. I see nothing wrong with that.

I'm not an airline pilot but several good friends are and I know they get put through the training ringer with lots of hardware failure scenarios. I wouldn't be too worried about their skills.

 

[RotorAndWing]

I certainly did not mean for the comments to insult airline pilots. I have the utmost respect for them. What I was attempting to highlight is, if we are going to make statements about the reliance on magenta lines and the relative skills of pilots who depend on the line for navigation, then I think we should e prepared to face the reality that, many pilots who do this for a living, are in fact, more reliant on needles and GPS and programmed navigation aids than the standard VFR private pilot will ever be.

So maybe this scenario will elicit some thoughts. A person walks in and says to a CFI, " prepare me to fly for the airlines, that's what I want to do with my life, 100% sure." When it comes to navigation, that CFI should absolutely teach pilotage and dead reckoning, but clearly that student needs to be taught the ways to use the "magenta line." It's just tough to understand why that person should be discouraged from using a tool that makes navigating easier simply because, "automation can fail." Automation is here and people in aviation now are ever more reliant on it to fly. I know for a fact that the school i trained with purchased a 182 with a glass cockpit because the director felt students should have experience with a more automated and technologically advanced cockpit than the round gauge 172's I learned on. This is the mindset that I would imagine is becoming common ground-- expose students to the basics, but teach the students the ways of now. I see nothing wrong with that.

Ok. :wink2: