This is why we can't have nice things.

[James331]

"
US pilots ask Trump to block Obama admin ruling they say would kill thousands of jobs
A group of airline pilots will rally Tuesday outside the White House in hopes of getting President Trump to intervene on a ruling by the former Obama administration that they say could eliminate tens of thousands of U.S. airline jobs.

The group of roughly 100 Southwest Airlines and NetJets pilots will voice their opposition to a December 2 decision by the Transportation Department to allow Norwegian Air International to service the United States, arguing the airline can undercut labor costs because its headquarters is in Ireland.

Critics of that strategy call the business tactic a “flag of convenience scheme.”

Norwegian Air International is a subsidiary of low-cost European carrier Norwegian Air Shuttle, based in Norway.

“Even before President Trump was in office, we supported his pro-worker mantra,” Chip Hancock, a Southwest Airlines Pilots’ Association official, said Monday. “He’s looking out for American workers.”

He and Coley George, of NetJets Association of Shared Aircraft Pilots, said they were hearted by Trump on Monday -- the start of his first full week in office -- for getting the United States out the Obama-backed international trade deal known as the Trans-Pacific Partnership.

“Another bad trade deal approved by Obama,” George said.

The pilots and their unions have until January 29 to get Trump to stop the change.

Norwegian started asking to provide air service to the U.S. as far back as 2013, amid objections from airline carriers, unions and others that the change could undercut labor costs, safety regulations and domestic-airline ticket prices.

However, the agency gave final approval last month, saying it found no legal reason to reject Norwegian’s application.

A group of labor unions has also reportedly filed a lawsuit in a federal appeals court, in an attempt to stop the change.

The legal argument about the Obama administration’s decision is that it violates a part of so-called Open Skies agreements that state unrestricted flights among countries are not intended to “undermine labor standards.”

“This decision is just another failed trade deal by the Obama administration, giving foreign companies an unfair advantage over U.S. companies,” said Captain Jon Weaks, SWAPA president. “Only President Trump has the power to reverse the … reckless approval.” "

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/201...min-ruling-say-would-kill-thousands-jobs.html

 

[Katamarino]

It'd sure be a shame if people had access to decent flights at lower prices. Hopefully Trump will reduce the ridiculous costs of doing business in the USA rather than try and block competition from more business friendly locations.

 

[Cooter]

It'd sure be a shame if people had access to decent flights at lower prices. Hopefully Trump will reduce the ridiculous costs of doing business in the USA rather than try and block competition from more business friendly locations.

This isn't just about lower prices. Foreign operators will be allowed to operate according to different and less burdensome standards than American operators. As long as there is regulative parity among all who provide service, the low price competition is welcome.

 

[James331]

This isn't just about lower prices. Foreign operators will be allowed to operate according to different and less burdensome standards than American operators. As long as there is regulative parity among all who provide service, the low price competition is welcome.

That.

It'd sure be a shame if people had access to decent flights at lower prices....

So how are those cheap tickets working out for you??

I'll happily pay a little more to not deal with these people, cheap tickets = cheap seats and low cost pax

 

[Van Johnston]

How does this threaten Southwest Airlines pilots or Netjets pilots? Doubt SWA's business plan is to expand to Europe. Netjets customers have already decided to not fly airline, so will a lower fare really woo them away? What am I missing?

 

[jordane93]

How does this threaten Southwest Airlines pilots or Netjets pilots? Doubt SWA's business plan is to expand to Europe. Netjets customers have already decided to not fly airline, so will a lower fare really woo them away? What am I missing?

NAI is operating flights within the US to other destinations that doesn't originate from their flag of operation. They have shotty mx, poorly trained pilots and are exempt from other things that US carriers are not. But they offer lower prices so that's awesome right? If you can't see beyond the lower prices, you really need to open your eyes and see how bad this is for the US aviation industry.

 

[SkyDog58]

That.

So how are those cheap tickets working out for you??

I'll happily pay a little more to not deal with these people, cheap tickets = cheap seats and low cost pax

Wow, that ghetto blaster incident was crazy. Other passengers should never even had a need to get involved if the stews would do their job. The minute they started blasting the music, they should have been told to turn it off. And the fact that law enforcement decided not to press charges is in itself almost criminal. Do your freakin' job!

 

[Cpt_Kirk]

I'll happily pay a little more to not deal with these people, cheap tickets = cheap seats and low cost pax

Good ol' Spirit. lmao

 

[jordane93]

That.




So how are those cheap tickets working out for you??

I'll happily pay a little more to not deal with these people, cheap tickets = cheap seats and low cost pax

FWIW I hear Spirit treats our jumpseaters really well. Everyone in my company who has ridden on Spirit says the crews are awesome to them.

 

[deonb]

This isn't just about lower prices. Foreign operators will be allowed to operate according to different and less burdensome standards than American operators. As long as there is regulative parity among all who provide service, the low price competition is welcome.

So the issue as I understand is that Norwegian created a subsidiary in ireland and wanted to operate from there because of less stringent Irish regulations, right?

What prevents RyanAir from just starting to fly to the US and cause the same problem? They're already in Ireland so presumably they can't be blocked on that grounds.

 

[Katamarino]

So how are those cheap tickets working out for you??

I'll happily pay a little more to not deal with these people, cheap tickets = cheap seats and low cost pax

Nice incident posted there, on an internal US flight on a US carrier. Not sure how that supports your argument?

The good thing is, if you're willing to pay a little more not to deal with that, you have that option. I don't see where Norwegian are asking the government to ban companies offering higher prices?

I have flown with Norwegian transatlantic twice; the aircraft were nicer and newer than most of the junk flying here in the US, the service was about the same, and the clientele were a hell of a lot better than the one time I ventured onto Spirit, that's for sure...

 

[jordane93]

Nice incident posted there, on an internal US flight on a US carrier. Not sure how that supports your argument?

The good thing is, if you're willing to pay a little more not to deal with that, you have that option. I don't see where Norwegian are asking the government to ban companies offering higher prices?

I have flown with Norwegian transatlantic twice; the aircraft were nicer and newer than most of the junk flying here in the US, the service was about the same, and the clientele were a hell of a lot better than the one time I ventured onto Spirit, that's for sure...

They are using shady business tactics to undercut our pilots here. Insert your profession and see how you'd feel.

 

[BigBadLou]

Pilots' pay is only a minute fraction of the whole flight ticket price. The biggest portions of the cost of flight are airport fees and airplane cost.
So trying to save on ticket cost by cutting pilots' pay is not very effective.
OTOH, increasing pilots' pay dramatically would not cause a big jump in ticket cost while hopefully improving safety of flight (by allowing better pilots to join and fly).

 

[Cooter]

So the issue as I understand is that Norwegian created a subsidiary in ireland and wanted to operate from there because of less stringent Irish regulations, right?

What prevents RyanAir from just starting to fly to the US and cause the same problem? They're already in Ireland so presumably they can't be blocked on that grounds.

The problem isn't specifically NAI, but they are who applied for the permit. Others will follow.

 

[dmspilot]

Lol... on Spirit. Big surprise there.

 

[Bill]

W And the fact that law enforcement decided not to press charges is in itself almost criminal. Do your freakin' job!

Now now, can't be racist.

 

[James331]

Nice incident posted there, on an internal US flight on a US carrier. Not sure how that supports your argument?

The good thing is, if you're willing to pay a little more not to deal with that, you have that option. I don't see where Norwegian are asking the government to ban companies offering higher prices?

I have flown with Norwegian transatlantic twice; the aircraft were nicer and newer than most of the junk flying here in the US, the service was about the same, and the clientele were a hell of a lot better than the one time I ventured onto Spirit, that's for sure...

I was addressing that towards the ill thoughtout goal of lower and lower airfares.

 

[mscard88]

Now if the ladies can lobby and demonstrate, BLM can do their thing, Mexicans can demonstrate, and whatever else out there, now airline pilots whose jobs are threatened by a low cost foreign airline operating under different conditions and rules, can't protest?! C'mon mannnnnnnn!

 

[Shawn]

Sooooo...Question....I been loosely following this. What does NWI specifically do other than crappy pilot pay and claims of "shoddy" MX that other foreign carriers...or domestic for that matter...have to contend with? Are they not complying with FAA standard for entry into the US?

So far I have just head a bunch of whining from Unions about job protection from competition without much facts on why they should be denied.

 

[mscard88]

So far I have just head a bunch of whining from Unions about job protection from competition without much facts on why they should be denied.

Which they have the right to BTW.

 

[hindsight2020]

That is why I told the wife I'm gonna try my hardest to finish my 20 active in the military. This industry doesn't survive another 20 years without flags of convenience storming the castle, or cabotage laws (Jones) getting crushed. US 121 wages are gonna dump when that happens. it's not worth it to me at that point. I'll take my talent and my check of the month club membership, and do something else for a living.

American consumers feverishly believe the safety argument is a fallacious canard so US pilots can retain the ability to make an above average income. I don't have time for that schadenfreude.

 

[ircphoenix]

How is this different from JAL or KLM or KAL?

Is this company trying to offer domestic flights?

 

[Shawn]

Which they have the right to BTW.

100% agree...but I want the argument backed up with facts and not just gross generalizations of job protection due to entitlements of union representation. I have to deal with and adapt daily to people that are trying to undercut me in many ways including financially with my line of work...both from union and non union factions. That is why we run a higher set of standards then most others in my industry.

 

[MadseasoN]

That.




So how are those cheap tickets working out for you??

I'll happily pay a little more to not deal with these people, cheap tickets = cheap seats and low cost pax

You can always fly First Class or charter a private plane.

 

[hindsight2020]

100% agree...but I want the argument backed up with facts and not just gross generalizations of job protection due to entitlements of union representation. I have to deal with and adapt daily to people that are trying to undercut me in my line of work...both from union and non union factions.

Kinda difficult to view your fellow citizens as Compatriots when the starting argument in vocational life is so inherently and personally antagonistic, don't you think?

 

[Shawn]

Kinda difficult to view your fellow citizens as Compatriots when the starting argument in vocational life is so inherently and personally antagonistic, don't you think?

Quote the contrary when it is viewed as a motivator to continually innovate, improve and excel from a position of competition. You opponent is not necessarily your enemy but complacency can easily be a position of defeat if you are not constantly adapting...a concept which seems to be lost on many industries and labor forces today.

 

[Cooter]

Sooooo...Question....I been loosely following this. What does NWI specifically do other than crappy pilot pay and claims of "shoddy" MX that other foreign carriers...or domestic for that matter...have to contend with? Are they not complying with FAA standard for entry into the US?

So far I have just head a bunch of whining from Unions about job protection from competition without much facts on why they should be denied.

They aren't obligated to provide you with the facts, you can find them in your own. Why are you labeling them as whiners when you just admitted that you haven't informed yourself on the facts?

 

[James331]

That is why I told the wife I'm gonna try my hardest to finish my 20 active in the military. This industry doesn't survive another 20 years without flags of convenience storming the castle, or cabotage laws (Jones) getting crushed. US 121 wages are gonna dump when that happens. it's not worth it to me at that point. I'll take my talent and my check of the month club membership, and do something else for a living.

American consumers feverishly believe the safety argument is a fallacious canard so US pilots can retain the ability to make an above average income. I don't have time for that schadenfreude.

Lolz, take it you don't work in the industry.

You obviously don't know what the lifetime average pay is for a pro pilot, and no I'm not talking about what he makes way senior into his career, I mean all the "dues" this industry has going from 250hrs to finally that "above average income" thousands upon thousand of flight hours later.

And as far as "average" jobs, most folks eyes roll back in their heads before I'm even really that far into explaining the responsibility, knowledge, training, cost to get a CPL, recurrent training, medical standards, rules and regs, etc in my line of work. Yeah we maybe end up above "average", yeah that guy with 20 years working as a pro pilot makes more than the manager of a Hot Topic in the mall, you're damn straight he does.

And the industry will survive, you expect that amazon prime to get there overnight, you want to get from Seattle to Florida in a afternoon, or are you going to drive with your loud wife and annoying kids for 3 days staying in the crappiest of "road trip" motels? want to survive that MI you experienced 4 hours drive away from a trauma center, yeah brother aviation ain't going anywhere.

People still demand all these things yet we don't have a huge influx of new CPL students,even with the ATP mandate and that's partially due to the...cost of admission and I'm not just talking $$, of course as a government/military worker you are in a bit of a bubble, funny thing is from where I'm standing I'd be more worried about all your post service lifetime "benefits", than my outlook as an ATP.

You can always fly First Class or charter a private plane.

Don't need to go that far, maybe just fly better airlines??

 

[Everskyward]

View attachment 50911

Now if the ladies can lobby and demonstrate, BLM can do their thing, Mexicans can demonstrate, and whatever else out there, now airline pilots whose jobs are threatened by a low cost foreign airline operating under different conditions and rules, can't protest?! C'mon mannnnnnnn!

I don't see where anyone said that airline pilots can't protest. However I think the problem is that the *perception* of the general public is that airline pilots already make a lot more than the general public does, so they (the airline pilots) may not get the sympathy they expect.

 

[Shawn]

They aren't obligated to provide you with the facts, you can find them in your own. Why are you labeling them as whiners when you just admitted that you haven't informed yourself on the facts?

Because I am not the one trying to influence the argument one way or another regarding NWI...and if you just complain without providing specific facts to back up your position vs gross generations that is indeed called whining in my book. The Pilot Union's position may indeed be warranted...I was just asking for more facts to back up their stance.

If someone throws out allegations...you really don't feel they are obligated to provide you with any facts? No wonder fake news is so rampant on the internet!

 

[mscard88]

However I think the problem is that the *perception* of the general public is that airline pilots already make a lot more than the general public does, so they (the airline pilots) may not get the sympathy they expect.

This probably a true statement. The wages airline pilots make at the top end are the ones they probably think ALL airline pilots makes. They don't believe or hear about those starting at the regionals working their way to a major, nor the wages the first few years of an major airline career. Nope, they believe ALL airline pilots are making $300+ and up, which a small percentage do once they're at the top, and after 20-25 years perhaps.

The threat here with foreign carriers is flying within our country and driving American pilot wages down. If this was your career you'd feel as they do. There's also a high standard of flight safety at American airlines and "it don't come cheap". Foreign airlines like this one push their pilots and that can lead to bad things and shortcuts to safety.

 

[Cooter]

Because I am not the one trying to influence the argument one way or another regarding NWI.

You aren't the arbiter. You have somehow confused your ignorance of the facts with the facts not being presented at all.

and if you just complain without providing specific facts to back up your position vs gross generations that is indeed called whining in my book.

Calling it a complaint and labeling it as whining assumes you understand their position sufficiently to render judgement on it. But, you also admit to following the issue loosely while demanding more facts which you assume haven't been provided.

The Pilot Union's position may indeed be warranted...I was just asking for more facts to back up their stance.

Which is why I said they aren't obligated to provide you with any, unless you hold a position of authority or influence that I'm not privy to.

If someone throws out allegations...you really don't feel they are obligated to provide you with any facts? No wonder fake news is so rampant on the internet!

Are they allegations or predictions? The union alerts to the threats of NAI that I've seen have been accompanied by sufficient facts. I would suggest the information is there for those who are motivated to find it.

Doesn't the last quote above apply to you as well? You have judged them as whiners and complainers without sufficient evidence being provided. Quite the opposite actually. Are you a contributor to the rampancy of fake news?

 

[Everskyward]

The threat here with foreign carriers is flying within our country and driving American pilot wages down. If this was your career you'd feel as they do. There's also a high standard of flight safety at American airlines and "it don't come cheap". Foreign airlines like this one push their pilots and that can lead to bad things and shortcuts to safety.

But the article posted by the OP only mentions flying to the US, not within it. I understand cabotage laws as we are subject to them when flying in other countries. Of course this is only a news article so who knows...

Norwegian started asking to provide air service to the U.S. as far back as 2013, amid objections from airline carriers, unions and others that the change could undercut labor costs, safety regulations and domestic-airline ticket prices.

 

[catmandu]

How is this different from JAL or KLM or KAL?

Is this company trying to offer domestic flights?

It is an airline based in Ireland, about a two hour shorter connection from the US to the high revenue destinations in the EU. Low fare with shorter travel time will put them at the top of the search window.

 

[mscard88]

But the article posted by the OP only mentions flying to the US, not within it. I understand cabotage laws as we are subject to them when flying in other countries. Of course this is only a news article so who knows...

True, which is a threat to the long haul pilots of American airlines, and really American airlines themselves. But they'll also try to get permission/authority to fly point to point with the USA. Sorta of a "get your foot in the door" first deal.

 

[jordane93]

But the article posted by the OP only mentions flying to the US, not within it. I understand cabotage laws as we are subject to them when flying in other countries. Of course this is only a news article so who knows...

They offer service from major US cities to the Caribbean

 

[Everskyward]

They offer service from major US cities to the Caribbean

The Caribbean (or I'm guessing the parts of the Caribbean they fly from) isn't part of the US so it isn't like they are flying *within* the US.

 

[mscard88]

The Caribbean (or I'm guessing the parts of the Caribbean they fly from) isn't part of the US so it isn't like they are flying *within* the US.

But it's a start!

 

[James331]

The Caribbean (or I'm guessing the parts of the Caribbean they fly from) isn't part of the US so it isn't like they are flying *within* the US.

It's just the tip, come on.

 

[Everskyward]

True, which is a threat to the long haul pilots of American airlines, and really American airlines themselves. But they'll also try to get permission/authority to fly point to point with the USA. Sorta of a "get your foot in the door" first deal.

Not sure how they are more of a threat than the many other foreign airlines that fly to the US.

But it's a start!

But there is clearly a legal difference between flying between two countries and flying passengers within a country.