Thinking Twin

dogman

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dogman
Sold my Cherokee Six, Thinking of a 310 or Aztec.

Am I crazy??

Seems Like you can get a lot of plane for the money in the twins right now??? Compared to a Lance, 206,207,BO,Mooney

I want to go faster to save me time?

What is the safest Twin, single Engine performance?

De-Ice or not?

Turbo or not?

The price of the maintenence does not bother me to much for I have owned 2 planes for a couple of years. Is this a comperable comparison to the maintenece on two engines?

Just thinking at this time looking for in put from the experienced!

Jon
 
Jon:

If you're a member of the AOPA, there are recent posts on that board addressing this issue.

There's a lot to cover and I'm leaving town but I can tell you briefly why I moved from a twin. I had a turbo A-36 with tip tanks and was taking many long distance trips, flying in the upper teens and flying in challenging weather. Not that all this applies to you, but in my case, I wanted pressurization, redundancy, radar and deice. The P-Baron had all of that.

Much as I like the single in the over five years I had it, on many occasions I was over hostile terrain, water, flying at night or dealing with weather conditions that would be very dangerous in a single if the fan stopped.

Then twin is two to three times more expensive to operate. I use almost exactly twice the gas; two of a lot of things: engines, vacuum systems, alternators, etc. Twice the fuel with bladders to hold it. It's not the entry cost so much as insurance, operating costs, different hanger--perhaps, more training, etc.

If you're not flying over 100 hours a year with your IR, a twin probably isn't worth it. The more you're flying and dealing with conditions like I've mentioned, the more the twin has allure <g>

Best,

Dave
 
Jon, I recently ran all these analyses for a Baron B55. When it came down to it, for how I use an airplane, I could not justify the additional expense of a twin at this point, despite the seemingly low purchase prices (which have firmed up recently). Very high insurance, expensive annuals and other mx due to complexity, recurrent training mandated by insurance for most models, twice engine reserves, etc.

The question is, how do you plan to use the airplane? business or pleasure? tight schedule or not? how many pax? what geographic areas? etc?
 
Sold my Cherokee Six, Thinking of a 310 or Aztec.

Am I crazy??

Yes. But so are most twin owners, so you qualify in that respect.

Seems Like you can get a lot of plane for the money in the twins right now??? Compared to a Lance, 206,207,BO,Mooney
Initial purchase wise yes, but overall that's not much of a factor (see below).

I want to go faster to save me time?
There are fixed gear singles that are faster than the twins you're considering and retractable singles that are considerably faster. Two engines aren't necessary for speed anymore. What you do get is the ability to deal with an engine problem in cruise at night, over water, and/or in IMC with much less risk (although the actual risk of engine failure is pretty small to begin with), and the ability to carry a lot and still go far. One subtle "advantage" of a twin is the fact that with the higher fuel consumption rate of a twin you can trade fuel for payload with a much smaller reduction in the already longer range.

What is the safest Twin, single Engine performance?
One that's flown a couple hundred pounds below MGW by a pilot with recurrent OEI training at altitudes substantially below the SE service ceiling from long runways. The actual airplane is a pretty small effector on safety as long as you match the plane to the mission.

De-Ice or not?
If you want to use the plane for reliable transportation anywhere above the Mason-Dixon line (or even not too far below it) you need de-ice. This is especially true if your plans include trips further than a couple hundred miles (and if your plans are for short trips, a twin is probably a poor choice).

Turbo or not?
That's a tougher question. I don't have turbos and I do just enough mountain flying that I wish I did. But then I'd really want pressurization because I don't particularly like nose straws, hate masks, and have family members who'd complain nonstop about using them. It is true that turbos provide some options that can be useful in the flatlands, particularly overtopping ice, but in the eleven years I've owned a twin, turbos would have been useful away from the mountains maybe twice.

The price of the maintenence does not bother me to much for I have owned 2 planes for a couple of years. Is this a comperable comparison to the maintenece on two engines?
Possibly, but probably not depending on the two planes. Two Bonanzas or two C-210s would probably come close assuming there were two people putting the hours on them. If only one pilot flew both the maintenance cost of two fast retractable singles would probably be about 2/3rds the cost of a twin.

Of the four most popular light twins (Aztec, 310, Baron, Seneca II-III), I think the Aztec is probably the most forgiving, especially if you add VGs (something you should consider on any of these). The Baron is the most enjoyable to fly and contrary to popular opinion likely the least expensive to operate (airframe parts cost more but rarely need replacement). If you want/need turbos the Seneca is probably by far the most logical choice. Aztecs are proabably the cheapest to buy and will haul a lot. The 310 and the Baron are the fastest under most conditions. The turbo Aztec and the Seneca are as fast or faster up high and slower down low than a Baron.

IMO none of these planes are too challenging for someone with an IR and a hundred hours in a fast retractable single. If most of your time has been spent in something that trues out below 150 Kt you will have trouble keeping ahead of the plane for a while. IIRC the Baron's gear speed of 152 KIAS is the highest of the bunch and this does eliminate the additional difficulty of trying to come down and get slow at the same time (still a bit of a challenge in a Baron though). And if you have no IR and/or little or no retract time you will likely have trouble getting insurance as well as getting comfortable for the first hundred hours or so.

One factor you must keep in mind that even though you can purchase a flyable example of any of them for half of what you'd pay for a new two place trainer, every one would be priced in the vicinity of a million dollars if you could buy one new today. That means that from a maint. perspective you will be paying to keep a million dollar airplane in the air. These planes usually come with lots of systems you don't find as often on singles like radar, boots, fancy autopilots, HSIs, dual flight instruments, a combustion heater,etc, plus two vacuum pumps, two alternators, two starters, two oil changes, two sets of spark plugs and all that stuff usually costs money to maintain as well. That is as much the reason twins cost two to three times what a single does to operate as is having two engines. And in addition to all that, the insurance industry which used to love twins thinking the extra engine lowered the risk, has become biased against them so you will pay a larger premium than you would for a comparable single even if you had the same hours in each class (which you won't at first).

I'm not trying to steer you away from a twin, I plan to own and fly mine for a long time, but you do need to be careful not to be lured into thinking the lower initial cost will make much difference in the long run.
 
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Sold my Cherokee Six, Thinking of a 310 or Aztec.
Am I crazy??
Maybe, maybe not.
Seems Like you can get a lot of plane for the money in the twins right now??? Compared to a Lance, 206,207,BO,Mooney
Market value is a lot about supply and demand, and there's a lot bigger supply of twins than there is of demand in comparison with the singles you mention.
I want to go faster to save me time?
Light twins generally buy you more payload, not significantly more speed.
What is the safest Twin, single Engine performance?
The one flown by a proficient, judicious pilot with proper training in type.
De-Ice or not?
Are you looking to fly when you want in winter or not?
Turbo or not?
Are you looking to fly to/from airports or over terrain that is 5000 MSL or more?
 
Sold my Cherokee Six, Thinking of a 310 or Aztec.

Am I crazy??

Seems Like you can get a lot of plane for the money in the twins right now??? Compared to a Lance, 206,207,BO,Mooney

I want to go faster to save me time?

What is the safest Twin, single Engine performance?

De-Ice or not?

Turbo or not?

The price of the maintenence does not bother me to much for I have owned 2 planes for a couple of years. Is this a comperable comparison to the maintenece on two engines?

Just thinking at this time looking for in put from the experienced!

Jon

Crazy....? Ehhhh what's it matter anyway.... Twin doesn't buy you much speed, nor in a small twin that is going to operate in the cost range of your two planes, will it buy you much payload if you want the all the safety benefits of redundancy of engines, but it will get you some of each, and leave you with a plane that will get you out of a bind on a single engine IF, and this is a big if... If you treat it with dead seriousness and train everything to beyond proficiency to the point of automation. You cannot allow yourself to get behind the aircraft ever, especially not in IMC. If you are willing and able to make the commitment of time, effort and money to do that, you're looking good and have bought yourself a large margine of safety with that other engine.

Now, for the other topics... De-Ice, well, in youre Avatar I see cold weather and clouds, so if you are looking for one of the benefits of having a twin greater dispatch reliability for trips that have a firm schedule, you'll want de-ice gear, and preferably a craft certified for flight into known icing.

Turbos, I like em. I wouldn't have a travelling plane without some system of supercharging. I prefer them to be aftermarket Turbo Normalization systems with manual wastegates. Gives me the best of both worlds. I like to be able to make and keep speed at altitude. I don't mind sucking on an O2 mask and much of my travelling is by myself. YMMV on this point. Pressurization is nice, but that takes more money than 2 light singles by a good bit.

As for which plane, figure out your real mission requirements and what features you would like, and your budget, both purchase and operating and get back with us and then it'll be easier to say. There are a lot of good twins out there, and most all of them are safe as long as the pilot is.
 
Apache's are great twins. I am totally not biased.:blueplane:
Apache(for sale)Bob
 
Thank you for the help you have aswered many questions for me.

My mission is to go faster and carry a good load. I departed many times with a full load in the SIX. 2-3 passengers plus equipment,Full fuel.
I have cancled SO MANY trips that it is getting to me. I DO NOT PUSH THE WEATHER. My primary problem is a tight scedule, I very seldom have the luxury of being able to plan an extra day or two for waiting out the weather. It seems that I either have a hard appointment on either end of a trip.
So i plan my flight and end up driving(sometimes all night) half of the time. I guess I thought the twin would be helpfull at times. 1. for added Safety,2. Heavy hauler Faster and better performance if both fans are turning

I have 260hrs I am at this time working on my instrument training. I realize that this will help my percentage of trips flown but not by alot.

I do not think the training will be a problem for i try to train with a CFI often just to push me.

I am not in a hurry at this time but just looking for my next XC plane in about a year and trying to find what will fit my needs before I am ready to buy.

For now I have the refurbished 57 172 Lyc180hp which is a hoot but not very good for my business/family travel missions. I will finish the IR soon and get my ME and COM. Gives me plenty to do while i research.

If you have any more advise for my mission I greatly need it.

My other options are large singles Lance, BO, ??????

Jon
 
At 260 hours with no IR or complex time, insurance for a twin would be somewhere between staggeringly expensive and unavailable, so unless money is no object, a twin is not in your immediate future. Even the large singles you mention will carry a huge insurance premium until you get your IR and build some complex time -- possibly something you can do all at once (i.e., get the complex/HP single with a "dual only" restriction and do the complex/HP and IR training in it, at the end of which you should satisfy the insurer's requirements for solo flight). Do that, fly the complex/HP single for a year or so, and you should have the experience to satisfy the insurers that you're ready to step into a twin.

The downside of that is there aren't many complex/HP singles with known icing capability, and this time of year, that's pretty important for reliable business transportation. However, if you can live with that limitation for a while, you can move into a twin with known icing capability later.

In any event, acquiring your IR should be your most immediate (i.e., within that year you mentioned before you get another plane) priority, since that will give you a lot more flexibility in the short term. The only question would be whether your '57 172 is well-enough equipped with avionics to be a reasonable platform for IR training and routine IFR operations. That vintage likely has the "shotgun" instrument layout, which isn't conducive to good scanning techniques, and may have limited and/or outdated radios. You could update the panel, but you'd have to recognize that if you're going to sell the plane a year from now, you'd be unlikely to recoup much of your added investment when you sell it -- folks buying 1957 172's usually aren't looking for an IFR XC platform.
 
At 260 hours with no IR or complex time, insurance for a twin would be somewhere between staggeringly expensive and unavailable.

I keep hearing this, but I see no real proof, and my experience was completely different, and I had 200 hrs LESS when I bought my twin, no IR & no multi. The biggest factor I found and still find is 4 seat vs 6 and a low hull value. There are also planes the insurance companies like, and ones they don't like. They seem to love a Travel Air because the insurance on one is CHEAPER than a Bonanza. Combine that with the BE-95 being about the most economical twin you can operate with honest performance and SE handling and is a 4 seat aircraft with a fairly low hull value. As long as you stay with a 4 seat twin with a low hull value and a proven safe track record, if you shop around, you'll find affordable insurance. (This is why you see so many Multi Rating Mills still using Travel Airs as well.)
 
I keep hearing this, but I see no real proof, and my experience was completely different, and I had 200 hrs LESS when I bought my twin, no IR & no multi. The biggest factor I found and still find is 4 seat vs 6 and a low hull value. There are also planes the insurance companies like, and ones they don't like. They seem to love a Travel Air because the insurance on one is CHEAPER than a Bonanza. Combine that with the BE-95 being about the most economical twin you can operate with honest performance and SE handling and is a 4 seat aircraft with a fairly low hull value. As long as you stay with a 4 seat twin with a low hull value and a proven safe track record, if you shop around, you'll find affordable insurance. (This is why you see so many Multi Rating Mills still using Travel Airs as well.)
Henning, I think that was then and this is now. The insurance companies have grown distrustful of twins. When I was recently in the twin market, my insurance quotes for either a Seneca II or a B55 were high, but contained high risk deductibles and checkout requirements that were tending toward onerous. At the same time, I have a low-time friend who was looking at insurance in a Cherokee Six, and several companies declined to quote. Granted a lot of this is 6-seat liability, but I think a very large part of the insurance problem is non-IR.
 
There is a business owner here that has a B55 and uses it for cargo and sometimes 4 passengers total. His insurance company reduced the rate when he took two seats out and made it a four passenger. I know Jon(Dogman) used his six more this way, this might be the way for him to go and keep the insurance affordable. As for buying a twin, I'm with the others, twice the fuel, upkeep and annual, but not twice the speed. A friend of mine sold his Baron last year and is going back to a BO just for this reason.
 
Henning, I think that was then and this is now. The insurance companies have grown distrustful of twins. When I was recently in the twin market, my insurance quotes for either a Seneca II or a B55 were high, but contained high risk deductibles and checkout requirements that were tending toward onerous. At the same time, I have a low-time friend who was looking at insurance in a Cherokee Six, and several companies declined to quote. Granted a lot of this is 6-seat liability, but I think a very large part of the insurance problem is non-IR.

I checked recently after another thread on this same topic. Call around and get some quotes on a Travel Air, you may be surprized. There is a large difference between 4 seat and 6 seat. So much actually I am having trouble seeing where the number comes from. If you consider it as well, if the guy does his IR & ME in the airplane, that will meet most of the onerous checkout requirements and he should be pretty dang sharp in that time.
 
At 260 hours with no IR or complex time, insurance for a twin would be somewhere between staggeringly expensive and unavailable, so unless money is no object, a twin is not in your immediate future. Even the large singles you mention will carry a huge insurance premium until you get your IR and build some complex time -- possibly something you can do all at once (i.e., get the complex/HP single with a "dual only" restriction and do the complex/HP and IR training in it, at the end of which you should satisfy the insurer's requirements for solo flight). Do that, fly the complex/HP single for a year or so, and you should have the experience to satisfy the insurers that you're ready to step into a twin.

The downside of that is there aren't many complex/HP singles with known icing capability, and this time of year, that's pretty important for reliable business transportation. However, if you can live with that limitation for a while, you can move into a twin with known icing capability later.

In any event, acquiring your IR should be your most immediate (i.e., within that year you mentioned before you get another plane) priority, since that will give you a lot more flexibility in the short term. The only question would be whether your '57 172 is well-enough equipped with avionics to be a reasonable platform for IR training and routine IFR operations. That vintage likely has the "shotgun" instrument layout, which isn't conducive to good scanning techniques, and may have limited and/or outdated radios. You could update the panel, but you'd have to recognize that if you're going to sell the plane a year from now, you'd be unlikely to recoup much of your added investment when you sell it -- folks buying 1957 172's usually aren't looking for an IFR XC platform.

My plan is to finish the IR renting a arrow 200, and a Twin commanche.

The 172 has the updated panel KX155 with GS and Garmin GNC300 IFR Cert. I will not sell the 172 has been refurbished to like new Airframe and Converted to a SNEW Lyc. O-360 180 CS prop. It is a fun flyer will do 120tas and Get in some really tight places. Density altitude is not to much problem With that engine and 2200 gross and those great flaps. I can't fit in a CUB so I built this instead.

I know the insurance is a concern but I will plan to pay cash(The reason for the 1yr wait) and carry Liablity. So should not be to bad. This is my plan with what ever I buy.

Thanks for the input Ron
 
I checked recently after another thread on this same topic. Call around and get some quotes on a Travel Air, you may be surprized. There is a large difference between 4 seat and 6 seat. So much actually I am having trouble seeing where the number comes from. If you consider it as well, if the guy does his IR & ME in the airplane, that will meet most of the onerous checkout requirements and he should be pretty dang sharp in that time.

I will check on that. I have read your posts of Travel air and will research this more.

I wish I could see you down in lower MO, I live in the northern MO but can't leave today.
Thanks for you help Henning

Jon
 
My statement was based on the experiences of my PIC clients -- many of whom are pursuing their IR's in things like PA-32's and BE36's. My current client (BE36 owner, with 280TT) says his insurance rate cut when he completes his IR will more than cover the $7000 cost of his training.
 
My statement was based on the experiences of my PIC clients -- many of whom are pursuing their IR's in things like PA-32's and BE36's. My current client (BE36 owner, with 280TT) says his insurance rate cut when he completes his IR will more than cover the $7000 cost of his training.

Exactly, those are 6 seat aircraft, and for some reason I'm not figuring out, there is a 200%-400% premium for similar performance/hull value aircraft when you add those two seats. Maybe I'll dig up a phone number for an old buddy who's an actuary and ask him why.
 
I will check on that. I have read your posts of Travel air and will research this more.

I wish I could see you down in lower MO, I live in the northern MO but can't leave today.
Thanks for you help Henning

Jon

I'll be here thru Wednesday.:D There's even 2 runways on the property.
 
There is a business owner here that has a B55 and uses it for cargo and sometimes 4 passengers total. His insurance company reduced the rate when he took two seats out and made it a four passenger. I know Jon(Dogman) used his six more this way, this might be the way for him to go and keep the insurance affordable. As for buying a twin, I'm with the others, twice the fuel, upkeep and annual, but not twice the speed. A friend of mine sold his Baron last year and is going back to a BO just for this reason.

Exactly, you don't buy a light twin for performance, you buy a light twin for peace of mind when you can't see through the dark or soup what you're gonna hit when the fan stops spinning. It's all about your personal risk management. When it's dark down there and you know the terrain is rough, it sure is nice to know you'll make a real runway with lights or an ILS, especially when you have your kids on board.
 
OK I shout UNCLE on the TWIN TWINGES. I was having buyers remorse with out even buying.:eek:

Did some really hard research today and have read many threads on Make and model specifics. WOW. Just like the single if you get a good deal on a twin You soon Know why its WAS TWICE AS GOOD OF A DEAL.

They have all said the same thing MAINTENCE IS A BEACH. even compared to owning 2 singles.

I guess I will have to just look for the perfect Single. Caravan:D AFTER I WIN THE LOTTERY

I liked the Six it was a 1965 in good shape but I was asked what I would take, I priced it and it sold. I guess now I am a little sorry.

So which single I would like at least 150 to 160kts and 1000lbs payload. Good panel with 430/530 and AP. Roomy I am a large person. My budget HIGH side would be 130k but would like to stay in the 100k range
Do they make it? Or is that two cheap for my budget.

Will a Lance do this?? BO?? 206??

Thanks to all of you for putting my head back on straight.
 
My mission is to go faster and carry a good load. I departed many times with a full load in the SIX. 2-3 passengers plus equipment,Full fuel.
A twin is not the answer to this. For reference, I flew the Seneca this weekend (wanted to go over some very cold water), and myself + CFI + bags + full fuel put us within two pounds of max gross. Remember, the twin uses a significant portion of its pulling power to lift the extra engine, systems, and fuel.

I have 260hrs I am at this time working on my instrument training. I realize that this will help my percentage of trips flown but not by alot.

Are you kidding? The IR, as long as you stay current and proficient enough to be confident in actual IMC, will do more for you than anything else IMHO. It turns an unacceptable scud run into a beautiful sunny flight on top of the clouds. (Or, at worst, a safe flight through the clag.) Once you have the IR and you're proficient, there's two main things that'll still keep you grounded: Ice and T-storms. Get a capable enough airplane and you can punch through the ice and weave around the T-storms in many cases.

Be sure your CFII really kicks your butt. My IR took forever, but I'm glad my CFII did a lot more than just the bare minimum.
 
So which single I would like at least 150 to 160kts and 1000lbs payload. Good panel with 430/530 and AP. Roomy I am a large person. My budget HIGH side would be 130k but would like to stay in the 100k range
Do they make it? Or is that two cheap for my budget.

Hmm... 150 knots, big payload, roomy, already have time in a Six, $100K-$130K? That's got Lance written all over it. I'd guess you'd find the Bo too narrow. I've never been in a 206, but based on my experience in the 182 I bet you'll find that comfortable as well.
 
Hmm... 150 knots, big payload, roomy, already have time in a Six, $100K-$130K? That's got Lance written all over it. I'd guess you'd find the Bo too narrow. I've never been in a 206, but based on my experience in the 182 I bet you'll find that comfortable as well.


I am thinking Lance, I like the Bonanza but Not enough room for me.
 
My mission is to go faster and carry a good load. I departed many times with a full load in the SIX. 2-3 passengers plus equipment,Full fuel.
A twin is not the answer to this. For reference, I flew the Seneca this weekend (wanted to go over some very cold water), and myself + CFI + bags + full fuel put us within two pounds of max gross. Remember, the twin uses a significant portion of its pulling power to lift the extra engine, systems, and fuel.



Are you kidding? The IR, as long as you stay current and proficient enough to be confident in actual IMC, will do more for you than anything else IMHO. It turns an unacceptable scud run into a beautiful sunny flight on top of the clouds. (Or, at worst, a safe flight through the clag.) Once you have the IR and you're proficient, there's two main things that'll still keep you grounded: Ice and T-storms. Get a capable enough airplane and you can punch through the ice and weave around the T-storms in many cases.

Be sure your CFII really kicks your butt. My IR took forever, but I'm glad my CFII did a lot more than just the bare minimum.

Yes I realize ir will help a bunch but I can still see many cancelations from weather, ICE!
I am sure as I gain more experience I will learn about when to and not to deal with Ice.

Most of my 260hrs have normal practice and long X-Country for business I've been from Pheonix to Northern Florida, to Northern Ontario in My short piloting career. Just trying to make flying more safe and a higher completion of flight plans.
 
I've been from Pheonix to Northern Florida, to Northern Ontario in My short piloting career. Just trying to make flying more safe and a higher completion of flight plans.


Isn't that a Johnny Cash song?
 
Yes I realize ir will help a bunch but I can still see many cancelations from weather, ICE!
I am sure as I gain more experience I will learn about when to and not to deal with Ice.

Hmmm.

Now that everyone's dissuaded you from a twin, I'm going to jump to the other side, and paraphrase Dr. Bruce: Nothing beats the dispatchability of a known-ice twin.

If you can handle the increased Mx bills, burning 24gph instead of 16 (and only getting 160KTAS for all that), and the extra expense of insurance and recurrent training, and you need the ability to get places... Maybe a known-ice Seneca isn't such a bad idea after all. If you don't have the IR yet, and you're thinking about getting a twin, just go ahead and do the IR in the twin. That way you'll have lots of dual in it anyway, and by the time you are proficient enough to pass the IR checkride in the Seneca, you'll be a pretty darn good pilot too. Don't expect it to go quickly though! :no:

A Lance, however, would be a good step along the way. The Seneca is basically a twin Lance, and the insurance company should like that you have lots of time (by that point) in a retract that's similar.
 
Let me know if I can help. I flew an A-36 for over five years. Chip currently owns one.

Loved the plane. Mine was a turbo with tip tanks; very capable plane. It was a bit narrower than some others. Payload with full fuel was about 650, but that's with six hours of fuel at 70% power. I usually trued out between 180 and 190If there's any info on that make and model you need, please let me know.

Best,

Dave
 
Take a look at a Comanche 260C.

If you're interested I can put you in contact with a seller.
 
Isn't that a Johnny Cash song?

YEP! that is what I was thinking when I typed it.

I've been every where Man

I guess all us country boys think a like.

Jon
 
Hmmm.

Now that everyone's dissuaded you from a twin, I'm going to jump to the other side, and paraphrase Dr. Bruce: Nothing beats the dispatchability of a known-ice twin.

If you can handle the increased Mx bills, burning 24gph instead of 16 (and only getting 160KTAS for all that), and the extra expense of insurance and recurrent training, and you need the ability to get places... Maybe a known-ice Seneca isn't such a bad idea after all. If you don't have the IR yet, and you're thinking about getting a twin, just go ahead and do the IR in the twin. That way you'll have lots of dual in it anyway, and by the time you are proficient enough to pass the IR checkride in the Seneca, you'll be a pretty darn good pilot too. Don't expect it to go quickly though! :no:

A Lance, however, would be a good step along the way. The Seneca is basically a twin Lance, and the insurance company should like that you have lots of time (by that point) in a retract that's similar.

I like this plan. I guess by finishing the IR in the twin I would know more about what I wanted. The extra cost of the renting the twin during the IR may just be cheaper than buying a twin and not sure what I am getting into.

I am so confussed. But i have a lot of time to research.
"IM NOT IN A HURRY! " This is what I keep telling myself. "I will not buy until I have the full amount in my hands- NO LOAN"
 
Take a look at a Comanche 260C.

If you're interested I can put you in contact with a seller.

I have not but will do a little research.
 
Let me know if I can help. I flew an A-36 for over five years. Chip currently owns one.

Loved the plane. Mine was a turbo with tip tanks; very capable plane. It was a bit narrower than some others. Payload with full fuel was about 650, but that's with six hours of fuel at 70% power. I usually trued out between 180 and 190If there's any info on that make and model you need, please let me know.

Best,

Dave
I sure will as I try to research my options. I thank you and everyone for the help.
Seems like many A36's are out of my price range??
 
Doc's plane sounds great also. See if you can get up in the Seneca. That's a lot of capability in an affordable twin.

Best,

Dave
 
I sure will as I try to research my options. I thank you and everyone for the help.
Seems like many A36's are out of my price range??
Mine, too. That's one reason I ended up with a Lance. Not as fast, or as sexy, or as well-designed. But decent and great bang for the buck.
 
Oy! Enough with the twin-bashing! I love my twin. I have taken it all over the place. It was cheaper than a single when I bought in in 2003.
But I have to agree, you don't really have that many hours.
At 21 squared, I burn about 15 gallons per hour. No, it is not as fast as a Commanche or a Bo.
But, bottom line, I am flying while those guys are making payments.
It depends on what you see yourself doing with your ticket. I wanted the multi hours and I am glad to have them in my book.
I could not have done what I have done for this money with any other bird.:blueplane:
ApacheBob
 
Take a look at a Comanche 260C.

Ooo... Good call Steve.

Jon, sit in one of these. If you fit, you may want to consider a Twin Comanche - IMHO it's the best light twin built until the Diamond TwinStar came out. Very efficient, dirt-simple engines, and may well provide you with the lowest operating costs if you can find one that's in good mechanical shape.

Again, where are you located? I know of one Twinkie for rent up in the NW at HIO (just west of Portland, OR), but there might still be others.

If you get a Twinkie, look for one with a six-pack panel and tip tanks and pay very close attention to the landing gear (when were the bungees last replaced, etc.) With tips you have the option of flying some weight for over 1000nm + an hour reserve, or leave the aux tanks empty and haul a load for 750nm with the same reserve. Great airplane.
 
I like this plan. I guess by finishing the IR in the twin I would know more about what I wanted. The extra cost of the renting the twin during the IR may just be cheaper than buying a twin and not sure what I am getting into.

Jon,

Where are you located, and what kind of twin is available for rent there?
 
Jon,

Where are you located, and what kind of twin is available for rent there?


1.5 hrs North of Kansas City. My IR instructor has a Twin Commanche for rent ( at IXD) that they just aquired so that is what I would be doing my training in.

I will check it out.

Thanks Jon
 
TravelAirs are nice enough planes, though I've never seen one that's got anti- or de-icing, which doesn't mean there aren't any. The ones I've seen either had scatter panels or had had $$$ dropped unscattering them.

Others have said insurance can be higher on planes with 5 + seats. Some say no. My experience has been that higher is the rule. Perhaps the insurance premium doesn't scare you if you are ok with buying and running and maintaining a twin in the first place. Your experience level will probably hammer you for insurance.

My partners and I asked our agent whether we could remove the fifth seat in our Baron [five-seater] and garner a premium break. She said, nope, far as they are concerned, one can pop that seat back in within three minutes and fly off with five people on board. We removed it anyway, didn't use it as it happened. Just to save weight. Our previous insurer had the same answer, by the way. The ones I've spoken with base their premiums on how many seats the plane was certified with, not how many the owner has installed. Just my experience.

We had a fourth partner at first. He was very low time, few hundred hours and basically enough multi to have done his checkride. Luckily for us, it turns out, he quit due to personal financial problems and that made it possible in the first place for us to get "reasonable" insurance. We were still haggling with insurers when he was on board. They were telling us such things as he could not ever fly the plane without one of us along in the other pilot position. [The rest of us have significant multi time.] I don't recall what they wanted in terms of time before that restriction would be lifted.

As others have indicated, the mx costs for a twin are higher than two singles. I have had several singles and there is zero way the mx is equal between the twin and two of the singles. More systems, for one thing, not just two engines, and in most cases, much more complexity in the airframe, etc. And, the older the twin, the more mx as with any other plane. Just a problem with the exhaust system in a 310 can make you think of a second mortgage to get it out of the shop. An older twin [most of them are] with deice? Man, guess what it costs to refurbish a set of boots or fuel tank liners....

However, if you know what you are getting into, and are willing to stay very current in all aspects of multi profficiency, twins are great fun to tool around in.
 
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