Thinking of buying a plane for training

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CobraDane

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Paul
Hi Everyone,
I am hoping to start flight training early next year and was thinking of buying my own airplane. I took about 15 hours of flight training back when i was a broke college student and really loved it. The only reason i stopped was because I was a broke college student.

I was thinking of buying my own plane when I start to train. Nothing horribly expensive or fancy, just a cheap time-builder that is preferably IFR so i can continue seamlessly into my instrument rating, (with my ultimate goal being CFII) but thats not an absolute necessity, just a wish list item. I was thinking a either Piper Tomahawk (probably top of the list) or Warrior, or a Mooney M20. I have always been in a 172 so I also put Cessna 150, 152 and 172's on the list, but I just like the look of the low winged machines. What are your recommendations? Where are the best places to get good deals on used planes?

Can some aircraft owners give me a breakdown of realistic expenses? Are there any ways to limit expenses? Things I should look for? Things i should/shoudn't be frightened away from?

Thanks in advance to all who reply.
 
I purchased a 152 in order to get my license, and it worked out well for me. I enjoy airplane ownership and knowing who's using my plane and how it's being flown. For a while I was keeping the plane on a grass strip owned by a friend who's a crop duster. This gave me access to cheap(er) fuel, no hangar fee, and he really helped mentor me when it came to ownership. It helped me get my feet wet with airplane ownership before I decided to move up to a 4 seater as well.

If I recall, you're a little limited on what maintenance you can directly perform until you get your license, but I don't recall the specifics, although you can always help your A&P in order to keep costs down (if you have one that lets you do that). So, find a good mechanic that you trust and allows you to help them with the annual and routine maintenance, and also allows you to provide your own parts, so you can save money by buying your own oil filters, etc... I feel incredibly lucky to have a great relationship with my mechanic, and I save a ton of money and time using him, since he comes to my hangar and does all my maintenance right on the field. Ask around the airport to see who other people are using and what their rates are.

If you aren't going to keep the plane forever, you may want to get a cover and just keep the plane outside in order to save on hangar costs. Hangar costs vary greatly depending on what part of the country/which airport you're at. I pay $193/mo. for my enclosed hangar, which I think is pretty cheap compared to some of the prices I've seen. This may not be completely viable, depending on the weather in your area.

My airport requires that I keep insurance on my airplane and list them on the policy. This runs about $750/yr. now, but I believe at one point it was double that when I had fewer hours. My airport also requires that I keep extra insurance on any vehicle that I drive on the field, so that's another added expense to look for.

Some people say to buy your last airplane first, but purchasing a cheap 2 seater worked out really well for me. It generally let me know what to expect regarding airplane ownership and also what sort of airplane might be good for me in the long term.
 
I purchased older airplanes for my commercial ,instrument,and ATP training,worked out well for me. They weren't always the best looking airplanes.
 
I bought a Citabria to learn and it was a blast, and saved me money in the long run.

Just like anything else, figure your fixed and variable expenses based on local standards.

Annual fixed
Covered tie down: 1000-5000 (depending on location)
Insurance: 1000
Annual insp(simple ASEL): 1500

Variable
Gas: 35/hour
oil: 5/hour
engine reserve: 12.5/hour
misc reserve: 10/hour

Are some basic numbers for you not including instruction. This is to own/operate a simple 2/4 seat single engine.
 
I bought a Cherokee 140, when I had about 10 hours. I didn't regret it. With 15 hours, you probably have a good idea that you like it already. The 140, while not a true 4 seater, did have 4 seats and pretty good useful load, so it served me past my training for a few years. I too liked knowing I controlled the maintenance and was the last person to fly it. Also, no scheduling issues. Good luck and enjoy the journey!
 
Bought an ancient 172 for the back half of my Private pilot certificate. My only regret is that i didnt do it sooner
 
A citabria would be a awsome first airplane.
 
Where are you located?

There are other 4 seater low wings out there...

I love my Tampico, but am ready to move up to something faster and with more useful load. I'm ready to load in the whole family in and fly to the beach non-stop.

I run $1,200 annuals. These are true annuals. I do not consider anything found and repaired during the annual to be part of the annual. That is repair work. Repair work can be found at any time during the year and should be fixed when found.

I spend $1,000 or so a year fixing stuff that comes up.

$40 an hour for fuel, oil, etc.

I seem to spend an average of $500 a year doing improvements. (STCs for air & oil filters, LED landing & Taxi lights, Flap and aileron gap seals, etc.)

I'm lucky and live in an area where hangar rent runs $150-$250 a month. I rolled the hangar money into a rent payment for a house on an airport. It comes with an open front hangar. I would rather have a regular hangar, but I do love having a house on a runway.

I pay about $600 a year for insurance, but you should expect a little higher as a new pilot.

The plane was about $33,000 4-5 years ago when I bought it. 1993 Socata Tampico. 5,500 hours total time airframe & engine, and 1,500 hours SMOH at the time. I've put over 200 hours on it since then. Fixed gear, fixed prop, 160 HP Lycoming O-320-D2A. Two gull wing doors. Nice large interior. Basic IFR capable. (Two KX-155s, one with glideslope one without. Mode C transponder.)

It was used by Embry Riddle for five years. They bought it new and put a 1000 hours a year on it for five years. They rebuilt the engine twice and then sold it with a mid time engine. The owners before me put 500 hours on it over 12 years or so, and they added new upholstery and painted it. I bought it from him when he and his wife could no longer fly it.

Tampicos are well made, over built, and solid. They are comfortable, but you pay for it in speed. It is an honest 105 knot plane. 25 knot demonstrated crosswind component. They are awesome trainers. When I bought it I was just coming back from 10 years off from flying and wanted something simple, easy, and stable to get out and enjoy.

There are good deals out there.

This is what I have now:
 

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I bought a Cessna 172 H model for my private and IFR training. I am money ahead with all of the hours I have flown it. Now that I have put 300 or so hours on her I am looking to step up.
 
If you send me an email, I'll send you a copy of a paper I put together on the ownership costs of that sort of airplane. Emails only, please -- no posts, PM's, phone calls, text messages, smoke signals, or ESP thought waves.

That said, you'd better be pretty darn sure you want to do this, and recognize that if for whatever reason you decide to sell the plane not long after buying it, the costs of buying a plane and then selling it suggest you'll probably end up with about $5000 less after the sale than you had before you bought it.
 
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A mooney will keep you from upgrading from a 100kt plane a year later. The older ones (m20c) still cruise at 130kt + all day long. You may take an extra 10 or 20 hours to get your license but that shouldn't be an issue. I have access to a 150 and a mooney now and the 150 will cost less to maintain. Without any major issues I would expect $3000 per year for a 150 including oil changes, annual, etc. I quoted a student on our 150 and insurance was around $1200 per year. With the lowest time insured having 300 hours the insurance is currently $600 per year.
 
Ron Levy said:
If you send me an email, I'll send you a copy of a paper I put together on the ownership costs of that sort of airplane. Emails only, please -- no posts, PM's, phone calls, text messages, smoke signals, or ESP thought waves.

That said, you'd better be pretty darn sure you want to do this, and recognize that if for whatever reason you decide to sell the plane not long after buying it, the costs of buying a plane and then selling it suggest you'll probably end up with about $5000 less after the sale than you had before you bought it.
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Buy a " cheap time builder" and you will lose money. Buy a nice 150 Citabria, learn recovery from unusual attitudes , spin recovery, etc. The trans. To say a mooney or a bonanza, will be easy. Be sure it's been hangared, 600 or so hours on engine, good logs. Put two hundred plus hours on it and you'll be able to transition easily. Go cheap and you'll spend a lot more eventually.
 
And the citabria will be WAY more fun and make you a WAY better pilot.

I've given a ton of instruction in them
 
Jimmy cooper said:
Buy a " cheap time builder" and you will lose money. Buy a nice 150 Citabria, learn recovery from unusual attitudes , spin recovery, etc. The trans. To say a mooney or a bonanza, will be easy. Be sure it's been hangared, 600 or so hours on engine, good logs. Put two hundred plus hours on it and you'll be able to transition easily. Go cheap and you'll spend a lot more eventually.
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I don't care what sort of plane you buy -- the cost of going through the search for a plane including doing a pre-buy (or two, if the first doesn't work), then selling it (including advertising and dealing with tire-kickers as well as paying a lawyer for a good sales contract) is going to take a sizable chunk out of the pile of money with which you started.
 
James331 said:
And the citabria will be WAY more fun and make you a WAY better pilot.

I've given a ton of instruction in them
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Citabria came to mine to me, you get the benefit of the tail wheel training and as James says it is WAY more fun
 
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I think I might be priced out of a Citabria. I've been looking and my price limit will likely be in the $30,000 range or below when i do buy next year.
 
I picked up mine for a little less than that. My cost break down:

I spent a few months searching

I ended up paying $750 for a pre-buy, because I wanted extra stuff done, like including a prop balancing, etc.

I put $1000 cash down as "earnest money" with a purchase a standard purchase agreement the broker had. It was 100% refundable, but some show of real interest required to actually prevent it from being sold to someone else.

There were some squawks that required fixing, the broker had them fix at their expense (I ended up "re-fixing" one later)

I used frequent flyer miles and bought myself and my CFI a one way ticket to indianapolis to pick the airplane up.

We rented a car for 45 minutes for the drive from indy to the airport (cost about $50 at most), did a pre-signature inspection. Signed. Paid the balanced owed....

Fueled the aircraft, and took off.

It was an ancient 172, that was old but clean. Had a 430 in it, radios operated well and the engine was described as "pretty damn good for its age" with 700 SMOH, and the overhaul was older.

Compressions were good, but the major squawk found was a cracked spinner dome. The dealer had it fixed but they had it welded. I had to promptly have it fixed 60 days later. Turns out my A&P charged nowhere near what the shop up north wanted, and I ended up getting a Cessna spinner dome installed and everything balanced correctly for the cost of the weld anyway.

All in all, no real surprise costs. I've had to have the nose strut serviced once or twice because when I got it, it was super high. Then the younger guy at the shop brought it too low.

I've also had an issue with flap cables that I had to have fixed for about $450. You'd think if you "know" your airplane, you may be able to cut a corner on a preflight on occasion. I dont, and that just reinforced it. Had I flown without checking it, I could have easily ended up with one flap down to 40 degrees and one up, or full flaps down and stuck, or no flaps and stuck. Any of those could have been bad.


In the 18 months I've owned it Ive spent maybe a grand in "extra" maintenance I mentioned above. I've spent maybe a grand in "cool stuff" that I bought.... holders, covers, plugs, etc.

I've also gone through some oil. I have the older Continental O-300, which seems to almost use as much fuel as oil. Mine tends to breathe oil from the breather tube, but within the continental specs. Even had the mechanic wash the insides, run the airplane and track the oil down. Breather tube and he had no cause for alarm.

Expect some things like that. In return I'm also not paying $180 an hour to rent. I could solo when I pleased and where I pleased (with proper endorsements). Get a sign off for repeated solos to somewhere with a restaurant and you can get a $100 burger alone. Maybe one with a beach?

I charge myself $50 an hour (which is probably more than minimally required) to fly and put that money into a savings account to cover annuals and overhauls. Upgrades are out of pocket/other funds as are extra maintenance and fuel. Fuel by me is $4.85 a gallon.

When I was a student pilot I paid $35 an hour for instruction in my airplane
 
Ron Levy said:
... (including advertising and dealing with tire-kickers as well as paying a lawyer for a good sales contract) is going to take a sizable chunk out of the pile of money with which you started.
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Hmm, sold the Maule on Barnstormers, no lawyers and the tire kickers didn't cost me anything. :dunno:
 
Silvaire said:
Hmm, sold the Maule on Barnstormers, no lawyers and the tire kickers didn't cost me anything. :dunno:
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As have 95% of everyone! myself included.

Also AOPA has a great sales contract template, free to even non members.
 
Ron Levy said:
I don't care what sort of plane you buy -- the cost of going through the search for a plane including doing a pre-buy (or two, if the first doesn't work), then selling it (including advertising and dealing with tire-kickers as well as paying a lawyer for a good sales contract) is going to take a sizable chunk out of the pile of money with which you started.
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The aircraft I've bought have been primarily word of mouth, with a few purchased from TAP. I never used a lawyer but rather used the standard agreement i got for free from EAA. I never spent over sixty bucks with TAP for an ad. My Stearman was sold while it was in for an annual and was spotted by the eventual buyer. After I made a mistake buying a 195 cessna from a liar, I always bought the best I could find from stand up sellers, many of which had rebuilt the aircraft personally and had very nice logs, many from factory new. (Most of them included a fresh annual with the sale, two were trophy winners, a nice Citabria 150 should be easy to find if your patient and can afford a nice one. Of each aircraft (8 in total) the only one that cost me was the 195. The rest I broke even or made a few bucks. Easy to do if you don't buy " cheap" which is always expensive. I never left one outside, always had any problem attended to by a good mechanic, changed oil every 25 hours, excellent wiring harnesses, no old questionable spark plugs, and no car gas except in the Stearman then I used ammaco hi test. No longer available. Buy what you can afford! good luck!
 
I bought a '77 Piper Archer II, loaded with good options. Garmin GNS480, Garmin MX20, Aspen Evolution 1000Pro, and a bunch of other goodies. Got it for $59k. This is my first plane, as I work on getting my PPL. I currently have roughly 40 hours, and have solo'd around 28 hours.

I live in an airpark and own my own hangar on my property, so can't comment on that cost. Gas for me is $4.25/gal @ 9 gal/hour. I do my own oil and filter changes as it nears 50 hours. Already did one and cost was about $86. Insurance for me is about $1075. Other than that, any little things that need attention are always expensive, but on an as-needed basis. I'm getting my annual next week, I expect to pay about $800. From what I heard, an annual on the Archer is easy.

As for the plane itself, I love it. It's a joy to fly and extremely forgiving. I look forward to my flights with my instructor and can't wait until I have my ticket. I'll build more hours in the Archer, then sell it and upgrade to a larger plane that can carry 6 passengers.

Good luck!
 
I bought a 150 to build time and experience. With auto fuel I didn't even think about hourly cost. Owner assisted annuals always under $1000. Same with insurance. Heck of a lot of cheap fun flying and not bad transportation either.

Enjoying a Mooney now and the 150 needs a new home. Located in Iowa, excellent condition, always hangared, engine around 700 SMOH (still flying weekly)
 
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