Thinking ahead - Panel Upgrades

[MIFlyer]

I am a new owner to a 1951 Bonanza C35. PO in the late 90s put a modern panel in it, and much of it is good, but some things are starting to come from together. I love the plane except the audio is junk.

I am VFR for now, but may get IR in a couple of years, so any upgrades I want to do get me closer to a decent IFR plane.

What I've got:
STEC 50 AP (from the documents I've found, it seems that it likely runs off the electric TC) works fantastic
Skysensor and skybeacon for ADSB in/out
Terra Nav/Com plus a funky digital indicator that makes no sense to me but seems to "do stuff" when you tune different VORs on the terra nav/com
12V TC that works fine
GNC300XL - not approved for IFR, coupled to a CDI (drives the AP well)



Current Issues:
Lot of static/squelch on radios, sometimes one is better than another, but they're not great. Unsure if this is wiring, a radio, or the audio panel
TODAY: Grounded because everything I hit the PTT switch (either one), the gas gauge swings down. This happens more on the Terra than the Garmin radio (marked difference in severity, but happens with both)
DG is getting super lazy and will need replacement


Future Planning:
It would be great to dump the vacuum system
It would be great to be IFR certified
Not sure how much I trust the audio panel

I think dual G5s+a GPS nav+a PMA450 audio panel would be in the future?

If I do a 355 for nav, I'd get gps and comm, leave the terra nav/comm.

I wonder if the 355 could use the existing indicator (which is already hooked to the AP). If I'm thinking of this right, I could just pull the GNC 300 + the audio panel, and replace them both and possibly not have to do much else. I could do the dual G5's at the same time (or seperately) and junk the vacuum system and failing DG.

Thoughts?

 

[AvNavCom]

Sounds like you've got some sort of electrical grounding going on with your radio. Hopefully an A&P can chime in.

GNX 375 for GPS + ADSB in/out (sell off your Skysensor and Skybeacon)
GNC 215 for comm/nav (VOR capability, and will use the GNX 375 to give you frequency names)
GI 275 HSI (moving map, shows ADSB traffic right on your HSI)
GI 275 AI (removes your vacuum system with both)
PMA-450 audio panel

There, I've just spent $40k for you. Do you have an engine monitor yet? If not, that would be purchase #1 for me.

Then you can save up for a GNC-500 autopilot! Remember, once you exceed the purchase price of the aircraft with the avionics, you can stop counting!

 

[flyingcheesehead]

I am VFR for now, but may get IR in a couple of years, so any upgrades I want to do get me closer to a decent IFR plane.

What I've got:
STEC 50 AP (from the documents I've found, it seems that it likely runs off the electric TC) works fantastic
Skysensor and skybeacon for ADSB in/out
Terra Nav/Com plus a funky digital indicator that makes no sense to me but seems to "do stuff" when you tune different VORs on the terra nav/com
12V TC that works fine
GNC300XL - not approved for IFR, coupled to a CDI (drives the AP well)

Current Issues:
Lot of static/squelch on radios, sometimes one is better than another, but they're not great. Unsure if this is wiring, a radio, or the audio panel
TODAY: Grounded because everything I hit the PTT switch (either one), the gas gauge swings down. This happens more on the Terra than the Garmin radio (marked difference in severity, but happens with both)
DG is getting super lazy and will need replacement

Future Planning:
It would be great to dump the vacuum system
It would be great to be IFR certified
Not sure how much I trust the audio panel

I think dual G5s+a GPS nav+a PMA450 audio panel would be in the future?

If I do a 355 for nav, I'd get gps and comm, leave the terra nav/comm.

I wonder if the 355 could use the existing indicator (which is already hooked to the AP). If I'm thinking of this right, I could just pull the GNC 300 + the audio panel, and replace them both and possibly not have to do much else. I could do the dual G5's at the same time (or seperately) and junk the vacuum system and failing DG.

Thoughts?

S-TEC 50 is a good autopilot. It's no Garmin, but if it's there and working, no need to swap it out. And yes, it requires the turn coordinator. The GFC-500 is really nice if you have the budget for it, though.
GNC300XL - If you want to fly IFR in today's world, this won't cut it. The GNC 355 is a modern replacement GPS/Com that gives you a MUCH nicer screen and more importantly, WAAS and LPV approach capability. What indicator do you have connected to it right now? (Pic would help, model number would be even better)
I don't know that I'd keep the old Nav/Com. Avionics upgrades done piecemeal can get expensive, so keeping an old unsupported unit can be penny wise and pound foolish. I'd throw a GNC 255 Nav/Com in there and call it a day.
PMA450 is a very nice audio panel, and I'd do that now - It sounds like you're already having issues, and it's better to spend your money on upgrades than it is to chase down issues like that. FWIW, our flying club spent $3,000 once on a similar issue caused by wiring going bad, it would have been far better to just tear it out and replace it.

Indicator-wise, of course, you'll need something to replace the Terra indicator... And I'd go with dual GI275s. Yes, it's way overkill as an "indicator". But, with an old airplane, IMO it's probably worth it if you can swing it solely because the GI275s are fully certified replacements for all of your existing flight instruments. (G5s are not.) That gives you the ability to at least get home and make repairs on your own time instead of being stuck somewhere out on a trip. This also takes care of dumping the vacuum system except in rare cases (like Mooneys that have vacuum-driven entry steps or speed brakes, for example).

And it's worth trying to do everything at once if you can. Avionics installations are expensive, and in the long run it'll be cheaper and easier to pull the interior out once, pull the panel and associated wiring apart once, and wire up a new harness once.

 

[Llewtrah381]

Look closely at the 275s instead of the G5s. Pretty sure you can get one that will interface with your AP. It will definitely interface with a 355, so you can couple the GPS to an HSI (the 275) and to the AP. And personally I think the 275 looks better and is actually more readable than the G5.

 

[MIFlyer]

Sounds like you've got some sort of electrical grounding going on with your radio. Hopefully an A&P can chime in.

GNX 375 for GPS + ADSB in/out (sell off your Skysensor and Skybeacon)
GNC 215 for comm/nav (VOR capability, and will use the GNX 375 to give you frequency names)
GI 275 HSI (moving map, shows ADSB traffic right on your HSI)
GI 275 AI (removes your vacuum system with both)
PMA-450 audio panel

There, I've just spent $40k for you. Do you have an engine monitor yet? If not, that would be purchase #1 for me.

Then you can save up for a GNC-500 autopilot! Remember, once you exceed the purchase price of the aircraft with the avionics, you can stop counting!

Thanks! I am getting my IA to come by and look at it, hopefully soon to figure out if it's a ground issue or if we need to replace something.

I like the STEC 50 a lot, it's very intuitive. I don't know what I don't know, but I'd be reluctant to upgrade it as it seems to work flawlessly in the couple hours of using it I've done.

Why 275s vs G5s? I know they're higher res but also smaller. My previous club's planes had G5's and they were awesome, but I've never seen a 275 in person.

I do have an older EI engine monitor with EGT, CHT for all 6 points. I have the old mechanical gauges for fuel quantity and pressure, oil temp and pressure, manifold, tach, etc. They seem to work well.

Would the economy version of your suggestion be
- keep terra radio if good (saves a nav/comm and $5500)
- keep xponder lets me go 355 instead of 375
- buy dual g5's ($6k), a 355 ($8k) and a PMA450 ($3k) = 17k plus install

If I go with a GTN750 or IFD 440 instead of the 355 it adds 5-8k but then gives me nav/comm/gps in one and I could drop the terra radio
Navigator 15k
Dual G5 $6k
GNC 215 5k
PMA-450 3k
= 29K

 

[asicer]

Why 275s vs G5s? I know they're higher res but also smaller.

They're actually about the same screen area.

 

[MIFlyer]

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Llewtrah381]

They're actually about the same screen area.

And the 275s can come with a built-in AP interface. It’s probably worth ensuring one is comparing apples to apples cost-wise, depending on the installation needs.

 

[bentmettle]

With as clean as your panel looks now, I'd be reluctant to get a G5 installation vs. a 275 if you can swing the cost difference.

Your turn coordinator has the "S" logo (S-tec) in it at the top- it's part of your AP installation, but the 275 should work fine with it.

Are you instrument rated?

I must confess I don't know what the instrument is to the left of your TC - so mayne someone can educate me

 

[Tom J]

It's a CDI for the GNC300XL, a variation of a GI102 with annunciators for messages and waypoint arrival. Takes out the requirement for a separate annunciator panel.

 

[MIFlyer]

With as clean as your panel looks now, I'd be reluctant to get a G5 installation vs. a 275 if you can swing the cost difference.

Your turn coordinator has the "S" logo (S-tec) in it at the top- it's part of your AP installation, but the 275 should work fine with it.

Are you instrument rated?

I must confess I don't know what the instrument is to the left of your TC - so mayne someone can educate me

That is the indicator that the old GPS drives currently that the AP gets it's GPSS signal from. My hope would be that a 275 or g5 could replace that along with the AI and DG.

PS, not instrument rated yet, but perhaps in the next couple of years.

 

[mandm]

Where are you located? I’m getting my work done in Indiana, feel free to DM me if you’d like their contact to get a quote.

 

[MIFlyer]

Where are you located? I’m getting my work done in Indiana, feel free to DM me if you’d like their contact to get a quote.

Hi Michael, I'm in Seattle. My IA does some avionics work, so it's possible he would take this on.

 

[asicer]

And the 275s can come with a built-in AP interface. It’s probably worth ensuring one is comparing apples to apples cost-wise, depending on the installation needs.

I believe the G5 can also work with the STEC 50.

 

[asicer]

That is the indicator that the old GPS drives currently that the AP gets it's GPSS signal from. My hope would be that a 275 or g5 could replace that along with the AI and DG.

Yes, a G5 or a GI275 will provide GPSS.

 

[AV8R_87]

Lot of static/squelch on radios, sometimes one is better than another, but they're not great. Unsure if this is wiring, a radio, or the audio panel

Had this problem, turns out it was the Skybeacon radiating a lot of junk in the RF band. Made it better with improved grounding and a ferrite choke.
Turn your position lights off (with the squelch open) and see if the background noise changes.

If that doesn't do anything, do the same with the other electronics. Turn as much as you can off and see what changes.

 

[AvNavCom]

Thanks! I am getting my IA to come by and look at it, hopefully soon to figure out if it's a ground issue or if we need to replace something.

I like the STEC 50 a lot, it's very intuitive. I don't know what I don't know, but I'd be reluctant to upgrade it as it seems to work flawlessly in the couple hours of using it I've done.

Why 275s vs G5s? I know they're higher res but also smaller. My previous club's planes had G5's and they were awesome, but I've never seen a 275 in person.

I do have an older EI engine monitor with EGT, CHT for all 6 points. I have the old mechanical gauges for fuel quantity and pressure, oil temp and pressure, manifold, tach, etc. They seem to work well.

Would the economy version of your suggestion be
- keep terra radio if good (saves a nav/comm and $5500)
- keep xponder lets me go 355 instead of 375
- buy dual g5's ($6k), a 355 ($8k) and a PMA450 ($3k) = 17k plus install

If I go with a GTN750 or IFD 440 instead of the 355 it adds 5-8k but then gives me nav/comm/gps in one and I could drop the terra radio
Navigator 15k
Dual G5 $6k
GNC 215 5k
PMA-450 3k
= 29K

I have a few thoughts, made far easier by the fact that it's not my money we're talking about.

First, let's the get the aesthetics out of the way. You have a really pretty white panel with a classic look. Having a couple of bulky G5's sticking out of that panel (or worse, cut into that panel) would be a visual crime. In my opinion, the GI-275 is a better option that gives you superior technology and capability, while preserving the look of the panel. Two of those will let you get rid of your vacuum system, will integrate with virtually any other technology you put in the plane, and will expand in capability depending on what else you install.

Regarding usability, I fly with GI-275s and they're absolutely fantastic. I recommend them without hesitation. Bright, responsive, and full of features. I can switch between a classic clean HSI and a full moving map with ADSB targets with literally one click of a knob. The ASI is full-featured and very readable, and can be customized to be as minimal or as complex as you like. Nothing wrong with G5s and they're great for a lot of folks' needs, but they're yesterday's tech and I wouldn't consider one in my plane.

My GNX-375 works really well to ensure full ADSB in/out as well as transponder and of course GPS functions. I had a SkyBeacon on another aircraft and it became unreliable over time. Between that and the SkySensor broadcasting stuff back into the plane, I would personally prefer a more integrated solution to avoid RF interference, but there's nothing wrong with your setup. If you are happy with your transponder and ADSB solution, I think I'd probably go with a solution which allowed me to drop the Terra stuff. I flew with Terra nav/comms for a while (including that little VOR indicator at center-bottom of your first photo; confused the daylights out of me on my first flight). The GTN 750 is certainly something I would consider.

My philosophy for avionics leans pretty heavily in the direction of "buy once, cry once". My preference is to save up and get the best possible solution, rather than saving money on an okay, but less optimal set-up. In a hobby in which an LED beacon can cost $800, saving a few thousand on the stuff that's front-and-center in every hour of my flight experience strikes me as a bit penny-wise and pound-foolish. I'd rather go without until I can get the best solution, preferably all installed at once. Others undoubtedly and entirely validly have different values and desires for upgrades.

Finally, when you get rid of that Terra VOR instrument discussed above, consider a GI-275 EIS. It will pop right into that spot, will integrate with the rest of your Garmin avionics, and is undoubtedly my single favorite instrument in the entire plane. Top-notch in every way.

 

[asicer]

My GNX-375

I would say that there are 2 key advantages to going with a GNX375 rather than a GNC355. With a 355, the knob is dedicated to changing COM frequencies. With a 375, that knob is freed up to do other very useful things. The second is that if in the future you want to add a GTN, the COM in the 355 becomes redundant. With a 375, you could just keep it in place and have a backup GPS. And when it’s not serving as a backup GPS, it’s a secondary screen for your flight plan information.

Also, the 355 dedicates a data field for frequency display while the 375 allows you to put something else there. One disadvantage to the 375 is that the BT connection can only be used with Foreflight, Garmin Pilot, Aera and Fltplan.

 

[MIFlyer]

Had this problem, turns out it was the Skybeacon radiating a lot of junk in the RF band. Made it better with improved grounding and a ferrite choke.
Turn your position lights off (with the squelch open) and see if the background noise changes.

If that doesn't do anything, do the same with the other electronics. Turn as much as you can off and see what changes.

Thank you!!!! I will swing by the hangar and try the radios with the skybeacons both OFF and see if there is a difference.

 

[compjtc]

Look at a pair of AV-30. They'd keep the round look, cost less than the GI-275, and don't require installation by a Garmin dealer, unless your IA is one.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

They're actually about the same screen area.

Screen area and resolution are not the same thing. For example, you can have a 27" 1080P display and you can have a 27" 4K display - The 4K is higher resolution.

Likewise, the GI275 is significantly higher resolution than the G5.

That is the indicator that the old GPS drives currently that the AP gets it's GPSS signal from. My hope would be that a 275 or g5 could replace that along with the AI and DG.

The GI275 does not interface with the 300XL. That 300XL is one of Garmin's oldest units, dating back to the mid-90s. However, presuming you're going to be replacing the 300XL, then yes the GI275 HSI will assume the functions of both the DG and the indicator.

Garmin GI 275 | Electronic Flight Instrument

GI 275 electronic flight instrument is a multi-function display that can serve as an attitude indicator, horizontal situation indicator, course deviation indicator and an engine indication system.

www.garmin.com

Hi Michael, I'm in Seattle. My IA does some avionics work, so it's possible he would take this on.

Some of the stuff we're talking about has to be installed by a Garmin dealer - I am guessing that your "IA who does some avionics work" is not a Garmin dealer.

I would say that there are 2 key advantages to going with a GNX375 rather than a GNC355. With a 355, the knob is dedicated to changing COM frequencies. With a 375, that knob is freed up to do other very useful things. The second is that if in the future you want to add a GTN, the COM in the 355 becomes redundant. With a 375, you could just keep it in place and have a backup GPS. And when it’s not serving as a backup GPS, it’s a secondary screen for your flight plan information.

Also, the 355 dedicates a data field for frequency display while the 375 allows you to put something else there. One disadvantage to the 375 is that the BT connection can only be used with Foreflight, Garmin Pilot, Aera and Fltplan.

The key advantage of the 355 is that it will replace the comm radio that would presumably be getting removed in the form of the Garmin 300XL.

If a GTN is going to be added, then it's probably not worth doing a GNX375 - Just get a GTX345 to serve the transponder and ADS-B functions and use the $2700 price difference towards the GTN.

Other than that, good points. One possibility for replacing the TxP/ADS-B/GPS/Comm functions would be a GNX 375 combined with the $2800 GTR 205 com radio.

 

[WDD]

Sounds like you've got some sort of electrical grounding going on with your radio. Hopefully an A&P can chime in.

GNX 375 for GPS + ADSB in/out (sell off your Skysensor and Skybeacon)
GNC 215 for comm/nav (VOR capability, and will use the GNX 375 to give you frequency names)
GI 275 HSI (moving map, shows ADSB traffic right on your HSI)
GI 275 AI (removes your vacuum system with both)
PMA-450 audio panel

There, I've just spent $40k for you. Do you have an engine monitor yet? If not, that would be purchase #1 for me.

Then you can save up for a GNC-500 autopilot! Remember, once you exceed the purchase price of the aircraft with the avionics, you can stop counting!

As someone who has a GNC 355, I'd say do what AvNavCom has listed above.

Option - an "upgrade" would be to get a GTN 650xi and a GTX 345 transponder instead of the GNX 375, and a PS Engineering PAR 200B that has a Com radio built in for your second Com. (Skip the GNC 215).

Would give you a larger screen for your navigator, and you can also control the transponder through it if you wish. You'll have a GPS Navigator, one Nav radio, two Com radios and an Audio Panel. All of this also depends also on how long you want to keep the airplane.

 

[asicer]

Screen area and resolution are not the same thing. For example, you can have a 27" 1080P display and you can have a 27" 4K display - The 4K is higher resolution.

Likewise, the GI275 is significantly higher resolution than the G5.

I think you're missing something from the conversation. I said the GI275 about the same screen area as the G5. I said nothing about resolution.

 

[asicer]

an "upgrade" would be to get a GTN 650xi and a GTX 345 transponder instead of the GNX 375

Hey, you're spending someone else's money here. An "upgrade" would be to get a GTN650xi and a GNX375 instead of the GTX345. Gotta get more glass, not less.