Thinking About (ok bought) F-350 with PowerStroke 6.0L - Questions

When I cleaned the intake on my 2001 TDI, at 270K miles or so, I filled a 1 pound coffee can with the crap out of it. The factory settings are generally dialed way to high for the real world.

That's why I specifically said _modern_ diesels.
EGR control has improved dramatically in the past 10 years. They should not be removed. 2001 was a whole different ballgame (especially if yours was a PD instead of a VP, VP's were poor too though back then).
 
That assumes the intake manifold is cleanable and it's really 300,000 miles before you have to do it.

Evidence on the street doesn't back that. Ford is replacing EcoBoost gasser intake mainfolds completely under warranty (but only once because you'll be out of warranty by the second one) for passenger side cylinder misfires -- because there is no approved cleaning method by Ford engineering. If you clean it with solvents, it's all going into the turbo and that's even more expensive a repair than replacing a clogged intake manifold.

Evidence on the street(and lab) does back that. Petrol EGR is a different issue altogether, petrol combustion isn't nearly as well controlled as modern diesel combustion, and when you lose the cleaning effect of port injection, you will have problems. VAG realized this with EA113 and first EA888 engines, that's partially why they now have port/direct injection on the EA888gen3.
EGRs were p*ss poor 10-15 years ago, back then soot in the manifold was a big problem because the combustion process couldn't be controlled very accurately (especially old non-piezo PD VAGs). With the modern common rail engines, pretty clever intake manifold designs, multi-phase injection control, extremely high stock boost levels etc, diesel burns very cleanly so soot accumulation isn't really an issue. EGR removal gives you 0hp and 0Nm, but increases your NOx by some 100x. And NOx is the nastiest stuff that comes out of your tailpipe.
PM, CO2 etc I couldn't care less about, but NOx really is nasty stuff and you can actually measure the difference from one single car on a sunny day, before/after EGR removal.
 
Evidence on the street(and lab) does back that. Petrol EGR is a different issue altogether, petrol combustion isn't nearly as well controlled as modern diesel combustion, and when you lose the cleaning effect of port injection, you will have problems. VAG realized this with EA113 and first EA888 engines, that's partially why they now have port/direct injection on the EA888gen3.
EGRs were p*ss poor 10-15 years ago, back then soot in the manifold was a big problem because the combustion process couldn't be controlled very accurately (especially old non-piezo PD VAGs). With the modern common rail engines, pretty clever intake manifold designs, multi-phase injection control, extremely high stock boost levels etc, diesel burns very cleanly so soot accumulation isn't really an issue. EGR removal gives you 0hp and 0Nm, but increases your NOx by some 100x. And NOx is the nastiest stuff that comes out of your tailpipe.
PM, CO2 etc I couldn't care less about, but NOx really is nasty stuff and you can actually measure the difference from one single car on a sunny day, before/after EGR removal.

The only problem I have with your statements is those are the exact same words people said 10-15 years ago when you say the tech wasn't fully baked.

The manufacturers didn't make anyone whole for knocking a decade of reliability off the engines with those poor designs. They won't on the modern ones either.

Hybrid driving suburbanites are buying fidget spinners by hundreds of bunker-fuel burning cargo ship loads from China -- they'll all mostly end up in the landfill by this time next year.

So... I'm not going to be too torn up about keeping a useful motor running 20 years by removing emissions equipment that's damaging it.

If the manufacturers still didn't get it right, that is. Up to them.

What are we at, tenth generation of diesel emissions systems and still damaging engines with them, that would otherwise run well for a million miles?

Ooh, I know. Let's order the fidget spinners next day overnight air! LOL.
 
The only problem I have with your statements is those are the exact same words people said 10-15 years ago when you say the tech wasn't fully baked.

The manufacturers didn't make anyone whole for knocking a decade of reliability off the engines with those poor designs. They won't on the modern ones either.

So... I'm not going to be too torn up about keeping a useful motor running 20 years by removing emissions equipment that's damaging it.

If the manufacturers still didn't get it right, that is. Up to them.

What are we at, tenth generation of diesel emissions systems and still damaging engines with them, that would otherwise run well for a million miles?

That's not true. Everyone knew 10-15 years ago that soot accumulation in the intake was a serious problem. Today everyone knows it is not (apart from clueless end users and forum "gurus").
If you knew how nasty NOx is, you would think differently, but I can't help your ignorance about it.
The amount of excess air available on a modern diesel is huge - small reduction in intake tract diameter doesn't have any measurable effect on anything.

And no, we are not damaging anything with EGR. DPF yes - SCR yes - EGR, no.

Modern diesel engines will easily last a million miles, you'll need a few DPF's and turbos and injectors for that, but the base engine is fine. EGR has no effect on that. The rest of the car unfortunately won't. With modern injection and lubrication systems, engines are better and last longer than ever before. Unfortunately the cars those engines power are made to be disposable.
 
That's not true. Everyone knew 10-15 years ago that soot accumulation in the intake was a serious problem. Today everyone knows it is not (apart from clueless end users and forum "gurus").
If you knew how nasty NOx is, you would think differently, but I can't help your ignorance about it.
The amount of excess air available on a modern diesel is huge - small reduction in intake tract diameter doesn't have any measurable effect on anything.

And no, we are not damaging anything with EGR. DPF yes - SCR yes - EGR, no.

Modern diesel engines will easily last a million miles, you'll need a few DPF's and turbos and injectors for that, but the base engine is fine. EGR has no effect on that. The rest of the car unfortunately won't. With modern injection and lubrication systems, engines are better and last longer than ever before. Unfortunately the cars those engines power are made to be disposable.

I didn't address your NOx comment because a) I know what I've read about it and have an opinion and wouldn't want to color yours, and b) I figured you'd actually say something about it. You instead just insult and make yourself look the fool.

I also NEVER said the problem was NOT fixed on moden engines. I said the manufacturers happily sold engines they KNEW were going to do it to the public for so long that it's on them to make a deal that puts their money where their mouth is today. They killed everyone's trust with decades of screwing it up.

Your attitude that customers are stupid is probably correct and yet also the absolute worst way to sway their opinion.

So tell us. What is NOx going to do to us. I'm all ears. Will it be worse than the millions of pounds of Jet-A burnt today?

And please don't bore us to death with "every little bit helps" without direct comparisons with numbers of people who are ACTUALLY doing deletes on NEW enough trucks to measure the difference.
 
I didn't address your NOx comment because a) I know what I've read about it and have an opinion and wouldn't want to color yours, and b) I figured you'd actually say something about it. You instead just insult and make yourself look the fool.

I also NEVER said the problem was NOT fixed on moden engines. I said the manufacturers happily sold engines they KNEW were going to do it to the public for so long that it's on them to make a deal that puts their money where their mouth is today. They killed everyone's trust with decades of screwing it up.

Your attitude that customers are stupid is probably correct and yet also the absolute worst way to sway their opinion.

So tell us. What is NOx going to do to us. I'm all ears. Will it be worse than the millions of pounds of Jet-A burnt today?

And please don't bore us to death with "every little bit helps" without direct comparisons with numbers of people who are ACTUALLY doing deletes on NEW enough trucks to measure the difference.

Yes - it is way worse than millions of pounds of Jet-A burnt today.

No, it's not about "every little bit helps". Like I said, get rid of your SCR/DPF etc by all means, I'm all for it. But EGR, don't touch it. We can measure the smog vs NOx vs UV and it is a large amount when you compare EGR on vs. EGR off. NOx is by far the worst thing that comes out from your exhaust.

I only do this (OEM engine calibration/measurement/testing) for living - I have quite a lot (on this laptop, 800 gigs) of measured data about this stuff, people "ACTUALLY" doing deletes on "NEW enough" trucks is what I work with every single day. I've done more EURO3/4/5 cycle tests (thousands) than I care to think about.

I don't have to deal with customers so I don't really care how manufacturers deal with it, I just said you should NOT remove your EGR, it is stupid, gains nothing, and causes actual measurable damage.
 
Yes - it is way worse than millions of pounds of Jet-A burnt today.

You still haven't said why. Saying "it's bad" without saying exactly what it will do, is only half of the discussion.

What's Ted's new soon to be deleted new Dodge going to do to me? :)

I appear to have survived when NOx wasn't measured by a few places, and that's all it's measured by today... is a few places. Relatively speaking.

Anyway back to vehicles. I couldn't care less what folks do to their trucks but @mtuomi does so he can explain his position better than "It's bad" whenever he feels like it.

Got the valve cover off of the passenger side of the Subaru today. The gasket that was in there looked like it had been replaced when I had the timing belt done three years ago. Nearly new. So it was just the stupid little tube seal that was leaking.

I replaced the gasket, tube seals, and the grommets on the bolts on that side and re-assembled it.

Not very motivated to do the other side since it isn't leaking externally or into either spark plug tube during the recent plug change. I'd just find nearly new ones on that side also. Only thing is, now one side is FelPro blue and the other side is black. Good thing I can't see it or it'd bother me. LOL.

I suspect they got the tube seal on crooked when they reassembled it, because you're pretty likely to hit them getting the cover back in place in the space you have between the engine and a rigid A/C tube there.

Oh well. Leak fixed.

Brake job is probably next.

Haven't decided if I want to do the Yukon or the Subaru first. Yukon probably needs it more but it gets driven less. My jacks and jack stands are a little more suited to the Subaru than the Yukon, too. Been thinking about an upgrade.

Also haven't decided what pads I want to use for either one.

May be time to replace rotors on the Yukon, too. The rotors on the Subaru look new.
 
What's Ted's new soon to be deleted new Dodge going to do to me? :)

Well, given that it looks like I can fix this thing, there will be no new Dodge in my future. I'm glad that I can fix it, even though it'll be about $2,500 in parts to do it right. But, it'll be done right. I'll be curious to see if this was also the cause of my oil consumption and some of the oil smoke I was getting that looked to be from the one dead cylinder. There are some injector failure modes where that can happen, and when I swapped the injectors between #2 and #4 it didn't smoke near as much. So, we'll see. My luck may prevail.

But, I did go by the Dodge dealer to check out some of the new ones. Honestly, I'm not as impressed with them in person as I was with my 2004. There are some minor things. For example, I think they screwed up the towing mirrors. If you look at them compared to the 2004 I used to have, the blind spot mirror got much bigger, and I don't like the picture that goes with it. They ditched the basic oil pressure and coolant temp gauges. You can get those on the digital display, but the only gauges are tach, speedo, fuel, and DEF. Don't like that.

Too quiet, too smooth. Doesn't seem like a Cummins. Even when you get on it you can barely hear the Cummins sound. Of course, a lot of that can be fixed, but you should know your engine's running in one of these.

It also felt slower than my 2004 did, even when getting on it. For having another 45 HP and 200 lb-ft of torque, it was unimpressive. Maybe this has to do with computer programming plus the summer heat, but it surprised me how slow it felt. I never wanted for more power in my 2004, but this thing didn't feel as fast as I thought it should, and definitely not as torquey. The automatic tended to want to downshift easily, too, which annoyed me. Of course I wouldn't buy an automatic, but they didn't have any manuals on the lot. I'd be curious how the manual (which on paper has less power and torque than the automatic version) feels to drive.

The things I liked better than the 2004: the "normal" sized crew cab rather than the shrunken crew-cab they had in 2003-2011. I think that's it.

I remember test driving one of these in 2004 and being really impressed. I loved how it drove, it was comfortable, the engine was powerful and felt it. Really, there was nothing that I could complain about. Not true in 2017. Some of that is because I have some perhaps unusual things I look for, but people who buy the Cummins buy it in part because it's supposed to be louder and vibrate more than the PowerStroke and Duramax. I got in my 7-cylinder F-350 to drive home after that test drive and, while it felt slower (duh, it was running on 7), I liked driving it more than the new Dodge.

Now as to the emissions, interesting points from @mtuomi and I'll agree that NOx are bad. Contribute to asthma and all kinds of other unpleasantries. On any brand new new truck I wouldn't be deleting anything because of the warranty aspects, so I'd let the reliability play out. That also gets some more years to find out what the weak spots are. On the 6.0L, the EGR is a major weak spot. The EGR valve is after the cooler (which uses engine coolant). On the 6.0Ls the valves will frequently stick because the exhaust gasses get too cold and soot the thing up (I believe Ford fixed this on the 6.7 by putting the valve on the hot side), and then the cooler itself will tend to leak, pouring coolant into the engine. So on the 6.0Ls, the EGR does contribute significantly to a lack of reliability. That's why EGR deletes are so popular on them.

I don't know enough about EGRs on other trucks. I haven't heard of the same issues on the Duramax or Cummins engines, but I also haven't investigated on those. My Cummins was bought new and only driven 108,000 miles in 2 years (now has 185k on it - I sold it to a friend) never had any issues and I never touched anything on it. Just changed fluids. Sold it with the original tires and brake pads that it came with the day I bought it. I guess I changed the serpentine belt around 100k.
 
Now as to the emissions, interesting points from @mtuomi and I'll agree that NOx are bad. Contribute to asthma and all kinds of other unpleasantries. On any brand new new truck I wouldn't be deleting anything because of the warranty aspects, so I'd let the reliability play out. That also gets some more years to find out what the weak spots are. On the 6.0L, the EGR is a major weak spot. The EGR valve is after the cooler (which uses engine coolant). On the 6.0Ls the valves will frequently stick because the exhaust gasses get too cold and soot the thing up (I believe Ford fixed this on the 6.7 by putting the valve on the hot side), and then the cooler itself will tend to leak, pouring coolant into the engine. So on the 6.0Ls, the EGR does contribute significantly to a lack of reliability. That's why EGR deletes are so popular on them.

I don't know enough about EGRs on other trucks. I haven't heard of the same issues on the Duramax or Cummins engines, but I also haven't investigated on those. My Cummins was bought new and only driven 108,000 miles in 2 years (now has 185k on it - I sold it to a friend) never had any issues and I never touched anything on it. Just changed fluids. Sold it with the original tires and brake pads that it came with the day I bought it. I guess I changed the serpentine belt around 100k.

NOx also reacts with UV radiation and VOCs and creates smog. It causes acid rain and so on. Really nasty stuff. Ditch the DPF (DPF needs higher combustion temperatures, which increases NOx) and keep your EGR. I'm not that concerned about PM, but NOx is evil.

Old EGR valves were really poorly designed, especially in american cars. US manufacturers used to be total crap with emissions reduction equipment. Now they are getting better at it. The soot accumulation isn't really a function of EGTs going through the valve - accurate combustion management (especially in the second half of the combustion process) is much more important. Anyway - we can now do this a lot better than before, just keep that valve if you have a late model diesel :)
 
NOx also reacts with UV radiation and VOCs and creates smog. It causes acid rain and so on. Really nasty stuff. Ditch the DPF (DPF needs higher combustion temperatures, which increases NOx) and keep your EGR. I'm not that concerned about PM, but NOx is evil.

Old EGR valves were really poorly designed, especially in american cars. US manufacturers used to be total crap with emissions reduction equipment. Now they are getting better at it. The soot accumulation isn't really a function of EGTs going through the valve - accurate combustion management (especially in the second half of the combustion process) is much more important. Anyway - we can now do this a lot better than before, just keep that valve if you have a late model diesel :)

And while I still believe you about NOx I'm still wondering why city busses have no limits on it. Or school busses for that matter.

Working across from a school bus yard, I get to see government exemption in action in the form of every one of them "rolling coal" every weekday of the school year.

The tiny real world numbers of pickup trucks with EGR deleted (mostly older ones with flawed systems), don't hold a candle to government dumping the stuff in the air by the pound.

You should see the city trash trucks in the big cowtown to the west, too. Their exhaust stacks make the mass transit fleets look clean.

Good for thee, but not for me... seems to be the message they're sending. Received and understood. Loud and clear.
 
And while I still believe you about NOx I'm still wondering why city busses have no limits on it. Or school busses for that matter.

Working across from a school bus yard, I get to see government exemption in action in the form of every one of them "rolling coal" every weekday of the school year.

The tiny real world numbers of pickup trucks with EGR deleted (mostly older ones with flawed systems), don't hold a candle to government dumping the stuff in the air by the pound.

You should see the city trash trucks in the big cowtown to the west, too. Their exhaust stacks make the mass transit fleets look clean.

Good for thee, but not for me... seems to be the message they're sending. Received and understood. Loud and clear.

NOx is invisible. Visible smoke often means low NOx.
 
NOx is invisible. Visible smoke often means low NOx.

Understood but these are diesels with nearly no emissions controls on them. I'm sure they put out plenty of NOx along with everything else they spew. The government isn't in any hurry to replace them or mandating any limits on their own massive spew.

Entire fleets of them. Exempted. Because "it's public transportation" or "the kiddies need to get to school". No other decent reasons given.

Most folks don't even pay any attention to their exemptions. (We could talk about crashworthiness of school busses and seat belts too, but why bother. We all know kiddies beating each other with seat belts is more of a hazard than making the little darlings wear the things, right up until the bus is upside down in a ditch and the news van is there covering it for the evening news as a "tragedy".)

About one in ten busses in the yard across from the office have DEF ports judging by the extra door on some, and the labels printed on others. Those must be newer ones.

They run the rest until they literally fall apart and then send them to the back of the yard where they're scavenged for parts. It's amazing how many have significant body damage and frame damage from accidents that are parked back there to maintain the boneyard. The entire back row is full of wrecked ones.

Massive spew all day long every school year.

And the trash tucks. And the road maintenance trucks. And the trash trucks. And...

Anything that has a city logo on it, is exempt.

You can always tell when you're stuck behind any city bus or large vehicle. You can smell it even if your view of it is blocked and you're wondering why your lane is stopping.

I'd make a bet. I bet every single deleted pickup truck in the city combined doesn't hold a candle to the emissions spewed by the city's equipment, daily. Even if 50% of the pickups are deleted (unlikely).
 
Nate, one thing to keep in mind is that school busses fall under medium duty vs. the light duty regs that our pickups fall under. I personally don't think that medium trucks should be treated differently from light duty in this regard given that most of them these days have the same engines that you find in the light duty pickups. For example, the PowerStroke 6.0 is the same as the International VT365. The 7.3 was the T444E, and I think the 6.4 was the "MaxForce DT". Given that they're the same engines, they should be treated the same to me, but that's at the government level. And yes, I've noticed and found it aggravating that school busses seem to have some of the worst exhaust (at least according to my nose's sniffer test).

So @mtuomi you said you don't like the exhaust fluid, but that's supposed to reduce NOx significantly. Can you elaborate on why you like EGR but don't like that?
 
Nate, one thing to keep in mind is that school busses fall under medium duty vs. the light duty regs that our pickups fall under. I personally don't think that medium trucks should be treated differently from light duty in this regard given that most of them these days have the same engines that you find in the light duty pickups. For example, the PowerStroke 6.0 is the same as the International VT365. The 7.3 was the T444E, and I think the 6.4 was the "MaxForce DT". Given that they're the same engines, they should be treated the same to me, but that's at the government level. And yes, I've noticed and found it aggravating that school busses seem to have some of the worst exhaust (at least according to my nose's sniffer test).

So @mtuomi you said you don't like the exhaust fluid, but that's supposed to reduce NOx significantly. Can you elaborate on why you like EGR but don't like that?

I don't like DPF/SCR because we could easily keep combustion temps = NOx under control with just EGR if it wasn't for the DPF system - DPF needs high EGT, which means high NOx - that's why we need to inject pee (or Eolys, or other nasty substances) in the exhaust - to reduce NOx back to reasonable levels. The whole DPF system is a bit of a "patch" to a problem - The emissions stay roughly under control during normal operation, but when you do an active/passive regen, holy sh*t...
So - EGR is just a better way to lower NOx. It's much easier to control, it's way more effective, and gives much less trouble to car owners.
 
I don't like DPF/SCR because we could easily keep combustion temps = NOx under control with just EGR if it wasn't for the DPF system - DPF needs high EGT, which means high NOx - that's why we need to inject pee (or Eolys, or other nasty substances) in the exhaust - to reduce NOx back to reasonable levels. The whole DPF system is a bit of a "patch" to a problem - The emissions stay roughly under control during normal operation, but when you do an active/passive regen, holy sh*t...
So - EGR is just a better way to lower NOx. It's much easier to control, it's way more effective, and gives much less trouble to car owners.

Got it. DEF fights NOx on trucks with a DPF, so you'd just ditch both.
 
Got it. DEF fights NOx on trucks with a DPF, so you'd just ditch both.

The question is, how hard will manufacturers keep you from doing that. Most of their code currently will limp-mode the truck for even thinking it's out of DEF for a while, or if it thinks it hasn't been able to do a regen. Folks with really short commutes and long storage times between drives have been ultra angry at Dodge for this for a while now. Truck can't get the regen in that it wants to do so the truck goes into limp mode.

To do the deletes the reverse engineers have to figure out how to trick the truck into thinking all the right things are happening.

Wouldn't surprise me in the slightest if the next step in that "war" is serialized components with encryption keys in them that only the manufacturer knows how to pair with the on board main computer. It's coming.

Which will then, of course, lead to more fighting over "right to repair" like the current real and PR disasters with Caterpillar and John Deere and their customers. Government has literally turned the manufacturers against their own customers and the manufacturers enjoy the extra revenues for maintenance and don't fight it. A great way to LOSE those customers forever.

When my Ford tractor dies, it won't be a New Holland or a Deere that replaces it. It'll likely be a Kubota. New Holland just isn't close enough to me and has a mostly dead dealer network around here. Deere is way too proud of their product and actively working against customers on self-repair.

It's so strange to have to factor in, "Will the manufacturer let me fix my own stuff?" into purchase decisions, but it's going to become a bigger and bigger deal.
 
The question is, how hard will manufacturers keep you from doing that. Most of their code currently will limp-mode the truck for even thinking it's out of DEF for a while, or if it thinks it hasn't been able to do a regen. Folks with really short commutes and long storage times between drives have been ultra angry at Dodge for this for a while now. Truck can't get the regen in that it wants to do so the truck goes into limp mode.

To do the deletes the reverse engineers have to figure out how to trick the truck into thinking all the right things are happening.

Wouldn't surprise me in the slightest if the next step in that "war" is serialized components with encryption keys in them that only the manufacturer knows how to pair with the on board main computer. It's coming.

Which will then, of course, lead to more fighting over "right to repair" like the current real and PR disasters with Caterpillar and John Deere and their customers. Government has literally turned the manufacturers against their own customers and the manufacturers enjoy the extra revenues for maintenance and don't fight it. A great way to LOSE those customers forever.

When my Ford tractor dies, it won't be a New Holland or a Deere that replaces it. It'll likely be a Kubota. New Holland just isn't close enough to me and has a mostly dead dealer network around here. Deere is way too proud of their product and actively working against customers on self-repair.

It's so strange to have to factor in, "Will the manufacturer let me fix my own stuff?" into purchase decisions, but it's going to become a bigger and bigger deal.

You don't have to trick anything. It's (DPF, Adblue, EGR etc) normally just a config byte in the calibration area of the binary.

Serialized components are already here, it's not the next step. New Flexray-bus ECUs detect the components in the bus and they all have their unique mac addresses. The calibration area is protected by calculating an SHA1 hash from around 90 different checksums in the binary, then signing that with 1024bit RSA. The data transfer itself is compressed using a proprietary (but rather simple) algorithm and then encrypted using another proprietary (but rather simple) algorithm. Reflashing ECUs with aftermarket software is becoming more and more difficult. Fun stuff.
 
You don't have to trick anything. It's (DPF, Adblue, EGR etc) normally just a config byte in the calibration area of the binary.

Serialized components are already here, it's not the next step. New Flexray-bus ECUs detect the components in the bus and they all have their unique mac addresses. The calibration area is protected by calculating an SHA1 hash from around 90 different checksums in the binary, then signing that with 1024bit RSA. The data transfer itself is compressed using a proprietary (but rather simple) algorithm and then encrypted using another proprietary (but rather simple) algorithm. Reflashing ECUs with aftermarket software is becoming more and more difficult. Fun stuff.

Not surprised it's already happening. And no. Not particularly fun.

Like that line in Office Space...

"So we hear you've been missing work..."
"I wouldn't say I've been *missing* it, Bob..."

:)

The battle over "right to repair" has only just begun, but I suspect the companies will win.

Government likes the built in lobby bribes too much, and consumers are too disorganized to find a way to pay more than the manufacturers for their lobbyists.

The manufacturers are more than willing to work as hard as possible against their customers, too. Sad. They'll spend incredible amounts of money locking customers out of the product they supposedly sold them.

Pretty soon we'll all just rent all of our software and firmware. Don't make the monthly subscription payment, the tools shut down.

I do like that numerous farmers have successfully thrown the middle finger to Deere with buying reversed engineered unlocking and maintenance software from coders in former Soviet bloc countries who have no fear of U.S. Patent law or U.S. DMCA law, so they can work on their own tractors.

That... is "fun" to watch, I'll admit. But it's completely stupid that they should even have to do it.
 
Guy I work with is from Alabama. Our project is in Virginia. He gets to go home 5 days per 60, scheduled in advance (more accurately, he's off... His employer doesn't care if goes home or not).

Left on a Friday night to get in both weekends on his 5 days off in his under warranty Dodge Cummins towing a trailer back to Alabama. Got a warning in southern NC that he had a set amount of miles (500?) before his truck went into a severely limited limp mode, like 5mph, unless he "serviced DEF system". He was greater than that number of miles from home. Got hotel, found dealer in NC Saturday morning, parts were needed, would be a few days. He drove back to VA, lost his 5 days home to getting his truck repaired.

Reckon I'd delete DEF system if I bought a new truck?
 
Guy I work with is from Alabama. Our project is in Virginia. He gets to go home 5 days per 60, scheduled in advance (more accurately, he's off... His employer doesn't care if goes home or not).

Left on a Friday night to get in both weekends on his 5 days off in his under warranty Dodge Cummins towing a trailer back to Alabama. Got a warning in southern NC that he had a set amount of miles (500?) before his truck went into a severely limited limp mode, like 5mph, unless he "serviced DEF system". He was greater than that number of miles from home. Got hotel, found dealer in NC Saturday morning, parts were needed, would be a few days. He drove back to VA, lost his 5 days home to getting his truck repaired.

Reckon I'd delete DEF system if I bought a new truck?

The insane thing is, that the limp mode is a required substitute function for certain faults in the DPF. Insanity.
 
Final parts (upgraded/bulletproofed nipple cups) arrive today, so then I can get started on the work on the truck. Probably going to start on it tonight depending on when the kids go to bed. I'm going to try to get one side done at a time completed and then run it with the valve covers off to make sure everything seems to work nicely, after that put it together.
 
Final parts (upgraded/bulletproofed nipple cups) arrive today, so then I can get started on the work on the truck. Probably going to start on it tonight depending on when the kids go to bed. I'm going to try to get one side done at a time completed and then run it with the valve covers off to make sure everything seems to work nicely, after that put it together.

Sounds messy, lol. I assume you mean just at idle.
 
Sounds messy, lol. I assume you mean just at idle.

Yes, just at idle. I figure it's mostly to make sure I didn't screw up something majorly. Honestly it's pretty easy to put together.
 
I hate getting the turbo in and out... Otherwise most stuff on there's pretty easy wrenching, all things considered. For those real experienced 6.0 guys turbo removal is like a 15 min deal. I'm not one.
 
A diesel truck thread with the phrase "bulletproofed nipple cups".

Not what I was expecting to read today, but more than I deserve in entertainment. ;)

I would like to thank Ford for their naming convention...
 
I hate getting the turbo in and out... Otherwise most stuff on there's pretty easy wrenching, all things considered. For those real experienced 6.0 guys turbo removal is like a 15 min deal. I'm not one.

Agreed. The engine is intimidating to look at but so far seems pretty intelligently designed. The 7.3 was, too, when I started tearing into the one in my now parts F-250.

Anybody want to buy a PowerStroke 7.3/T444E that's a V7/8? ;)

A diesel truck thread with the phrase "bulletproofed nipple cups".

Not what I was expecting to read today, but more than I deserve in entertainment. ;)

I would like to thank Ford for their naming convention...

No kidding. Someone in engineering had fun coming up with that one. ;)

The "bulletproofed" part comes from the people who made these upgraded ones. It's made out of hardened tool steel so it's more resistant to wear over time. The nipple cup on my #2 cylinder is leaking when hot, and when you look at it you can see the wear where it goes into the injector. It's probably on the order of under 1 thou, but at 500-3000 psi... doesn't take much to create a leak, especially since these are supposed to leak some oil whenever the injector fires. So the other part they do is deflect the oil that does leak so it doesn't go back on the injectors, which tends to contribute to failures.

These systems operating with 26,000 psi fuel pressures and 3000 psi oil pressures... they're less tolerant to things not being perfect.
 
Putting it back together today. Couldn't get a chance earlier this week.

About to put the passenger side oil rail on. Drivers side is all done. Debating on whether to idle it for a whole with the valve covers off or just put it 100% back together and then start it. Leaning towards option 2.
 
Grr.....

One of the oil rail screw holes got stripped. Time for a helicoil...
 
I'm done for the day. Drivers side is back together. I need to get a bigger bolt and a right angle drill to get at this spot to drill the right size hole for the new bolt. It's M6-1.0 now, next size up is M7-1.0.

I debated running it at idle but decided not to. This bolt is #4 of 8 in the torque sequence. I'll just put it back together right and then run it.
 
I'm still trying to figure out why the threads stripped. May have been overtightened in the past. I got a right angle air drill, but I'm going to have to pull the oil rail again I think to drill out the hole. I was hoping to avoid that for a lot of reasons, but oh well. At least the larger bolt will be the same thread pitch.

And then the Mercedes cooling fan quit. Fortunately it's just a 150A "non-serviceable" fuse. I need to order a new one.
 
And then the Mercedes cooling fan quit. Fortunately it's just a 150A "non-serviceable" fuse. I need to order a new one.

Good lord. That's 2070 watts at a nominal 13.8 VDC. I assume that's not what that fan draws after start-up, but that's still a monster fan if it needs a 150A fuse.

I think the two fans in the Subaru are fed with 12 gauge wire and connectors and draw about 20A each peak, via two separate relays. When one of them died and seized, it just popped your bog standard mini-blade 20A fuse. Replaced the fan(s) (did both of them because the other was turning slow) and the fuse and all was well.

I probably shouldn't mention that non-OEM replacement fans were just over $20 each on Amazon while you're working on a German car... hehehe. Not until you've got it buttoned up and don't have to buy any more parts for a while, anyway! ;)
 
Good lord. That's 2070 watts at a nominal 13.8 VDC. I assume that's not what that fan draws after start-up, but that's still a monster fan if it needs a 150A fuse.

I think the two fans in the Subaru are fed with 12 gauge wire and connectors and draw about 20A each peak, via two separate relays. When one of them died and seized, it just popped your bog standard mini-blade 20A fuse. Replaced the fan(s) (did both of them because the other was turning slow) and the fuse and all was well.

I probably shouldn't mention that non-OEM replacement fans were just over $20 each on Amazon while you're working on a German car... hehehe. Not until you've got it buttoned up and don't have to buy any more parts for a while, anyway! ;)

The purpose of this fuse is simply to protect against a short to ground. Mercedes has a few 150A fuses in various places like this. They're all considered "non-serviceable" and hidden in $500+ modules, but they're standard parts and easy to repair once you figure out how to get the stupid thing apart. It's annoying how difficult they make it compared to a normal electric fan, but oh well.

Back to the F-350:

I'm trying to decide whether I should just drill and tap my stripped bolt hole (M6-1.0) to the next size up (M7-1.0) or helicoil it. The problem is if I drill and tap it to M7-1.0 and strip it then the hole is too big for an M6-1.0 helicoil, so then I'm looking at an M7 helicoil, and removing more material to make that happen. So I need to think about that some.
 
Do whichever is easier. I have the sneaking suspicion you won't be taking that bolt back out again because it'll either be providing trouble free service... Or you'll have sent it on to the next owner on 7/8.

Fun fact, my last helicoil purchase was a different brand that's advertising was essentially "the other thread repair system" which I got a kick out of... Essentially acknowledging that helicoil owned that market.
 
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I'm kinda leaning towards the helicoil. It'll be stronger and thus less likely to strip again. I would agree with your assessment that it will either provide trouble-free service or I'll be sending it on to the next owner as-is. :)

However I will be very surprised if it's running on 7/8 when I'm done with this. I identified that the harness was really the primary issue for running on 7/8, and then the high pressure oil leak was the real hot start cause, although I also suspect that was contributing to low power issues. That's aside from the obvious power issues with running on 7/8.
 
Do whichever is easier. I have the sneaking suspicion you won't be taking that bolt back out again because it'll either be providing trouble free service... Or you'll have sent it on to the next owner on 7/8.

Fun fact, my last helicoil purchase was a different brand that's advertising was essentially "the other thread repair system" which I got a kick out of... Essentially acknowledging that helicoil owned that market.
Agreed. Which ever is easier and gets the job done. I'd probably helicoil it, personally. If it's still running like crap after new injectors/O-rings, I doubt you'll be pulling the valve covers again, at least not yourself.
 
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The purpose of this fuse is simply to protect against a short to ground. Mercedes has a few 150A fuses in various places like this. They're all considered "non-serviceable" and hidden in $500+ modules, but they're standard parts and easy to repair once you figure out how to get the stupid thing apart. It's annoying how difficult they make it compared to a normal electric fan, but oh well.

Argh. Overengineering. Germans. Bah! ;)

They ever heard of a fusible link in Germany? Sheesh. $10 to replace and does the same job. :)
 
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