Thinking About (ok bought) F-350 with PowerStroke 6.0L - Questions

I saw a video of a Yukon with a Cummins in it... now I want one... LOL. That's a nice way to replace a 5.3L in the Chevy when/if they die... hahah.

In a Yukon? That'd be an interesting weight distribution issue. 1000 lb engine in place of what's probably a 500 lb engine. I think you'd need some suspension changes! ;)

They're definitely protecting a few weak components in the transmissions / clutches.

For sure. It seems to also indicate that the G56 transmission stopped evolving about 5 years ago or so, whereas the automatics have continued to evolve.

One thing I'd also wonder about with these torque numbers pushing 900 is what sort of lag you get and how much you can realistically use that torque. I suppose when you're towing going down the road and get an incline is where you'd see it mostly in not having to downshift. That said, with the 600 lb-ft I had in my '04, I don't recall ever having to downshift. However I wasn't towing huge trailers with it like @denverpilot does. Normally just set the cruise at 70-85 and went down the highway.
 
Regarding @Grum.Man 's statement about the torque ratings, I found this:

http://www.cumminshub.com/67.html

Pretty interesting. Shows that you have three separate tunes based entirely on the transmission. While the difference between 660 and 900 lb-ft torque is substantial, no doubt, it's still a boost of 25 HP and 60 lb-ft vs. my 2004, which never left me wanting for more power.

Chevrolet did the same thing with the Duramax when they still made a manual transmission. That was the final nail in the coffin for their manual trans sales numbers. The Allison is so good nobody wanted the manual to start with and when they neutered it there was even less reason to buy the manual. Ultimately this will happen to RAM as well. Few people are willing to take that kind of hit on performance just for a manual trans when spending 40k + on a new truck.
 
In a Yukon? That'd be an interesting weight distribution issue. 1000 lb engine in place of what's probably a 500 lb engine. I think you'd need some suspension changes! ;)



For sure. It seems to also indicate that the G56 transmission stopped evolving about 5 years ago or so, whereas the automatics have continued to evolve.

One thing I'd also wonder about with these torque numbers pushing 900 is what sort of lag you get and how much you can realistically use that torque. I suppose when you're towing going down the road and get an incline is where you'd see it mostly in not having to downshift. That said, with the 600 lb-ft I had in my '04, I don't recall ever having to downshift. However I wasn't towing huge trailers with it like @denverpilot does. Normally just set the cruise at 70-85 and went down the highway.

Any and all lag is in the programming to save the transmissions and to keep the owners out of trouble. These variable vane turbos spool up very quick compared to the old ones. This is part of the reason the GM trucks are so fast off the line compared to the lighter more powerful Ford. They have less limit dialed in likely due to the stronger transmission. I think Ford limits the power stroke in 1st-3rd gear where as the GM trucks are only 1st and maybe some of 2nd.
 
Somewhere I saw a Ford/Cummins conversion. It was about a mid 90s Ford F-350 dually crew cab. What they did was basically put the Ford body on a Dodge chassis eliminating any suspension problems.
 
Somewhere I saw a Ford/Cummins conversion. It was about a mid 90s Ford F-350 dually crew cab. What they did was basically put the Ford body on a Dodge chassis eliminating any suspension problems.
I've never heard of anyone eliminating suspension problems by using a Dodge....
 
In a Yukon? That'd be an interesting weight distribution issue. 1000 lb engine in place of what's probably a 500 lb engine. I think you'd need some suspension changes! ;)

...

One thing I'd also wonder about with these torque numbers pushing 900 is what sort of lag you get and how much you can realistically use that torque. I suppose when you're towing going down the road and get an incline is where you'd see it mostly in not having to downshift. That said, with the 600 lb-ft I had in my '04, I don't recall ever having to downshift. However I wasn't towing huge trailers with it like @denverpilot does. Normally just set the cruise at 70-85 and went down the highway.

On the Yukon, the guy who I saw who did it, left the stock Chevy transmission in it, and knew that it would die eventually... haha. It did. During a prolonged burnout. DeBoss Garage on YT. Fun stuff he does. There's a series of about ten videos of the process. He didn't do any suspension work. But it wasn't a 5.9 Cummins either as I recall. It was a smaller one. Like their new crate engine, but I'm sure his was used out of something else.

On the towing and the torque/HP wars, that's why I like watching the real world towing tests like the TFL guys. They're slapping 20,000 lbs of trailer behind the trucks and hitting that hill, and all the trucks have essentially tied at the top for a loooong time now. So the bigger numbers are kinda meaningless ... unless they get cut off by a slow vehicle.

In fact... that may be something the need to add to their test next to even make it interesting. Halfway up the hill, hard braking to 30 MPH like they got cut off and then they finish the hill as per normal. Then you might see a difference.

I can pull that hill with 12,500 and not slow down much if at all, but the 5.9 without any computer changes to add fuel and boost, wouldn't keep up with the trucks that they test pulling 20,000 lbs.

I temp limit out on EGT on that hill even with the bigger turbo and plenty of air moving. But I'm conservative on the EGT. My alarm goes off at 1300, and fuel limiter kicks in at 1350, and get out of it or downshift. (I believe the Cummins book says 1350 for three minutes, but I would have to go look. I just don't push mine that hard. If the alarm goes off and I'm not just about to the top of the hill... I get off it or shift it.)

The best part about any of these diesels in the mountains, towing, was the first time you did it and realized you now had a turbo! LOL. (The EcoBoost Fords weren't lit back then...) The gassers without turbos just get lethargic up there. The driving technique for those is really boring. Floor it and watch water and oil temps. LOL.

Towing with the diesel up there, it's fun to watch the looks on people's faces in heavily loaded four banger cars as you're passing them with the truck and trailer behind. LOL.

Someone at the airport yesterday had a brandy new 2017 Dodge and was waiting for someone in the Denver Jet parking lot. All black. You'd have liked it Ted. Haha. And man, I went over and talked to him because it was QUIET at idle. That 6.7 is neat. He rolled his window down and we chatted about his truck for a couple of minutes and unlike mine, he didn't have to shut it off to hear me! Hahaha.
 
Somewhere I saw a Ford/Cummins conversion. It was about a mid 90s Ford F-350 dually crew cab. What they did was basically put the Ford body on a Dodge chassis eliminating any suspension problems.

I've never heard of anyone eliminating suspension problems by using a Dodge....

Me either. I'd go the other way. LOL.
 
I've never heard of anyone eliminating suspension problems by using a Dodge....

I wasn't very clear on that. By putting the Ford Body on the Dodge chassis that eliminated the suspension problem of putting a much heavier engine in place of a lighter engine.
 
Any and all lag is in the programming to save the transmissions and to keep the owners out of trouble. These variable vane turbos spool up very quick compared to the old ones. This is part of the reason the GM trucks are so fast off the line compared to the lighter more powerful Ford. They have less limit dialed in likely due to the stronger transmission. I think Ford limits the power stroke in 1st-3rd gear where as the GM trucks are only 1st and maybe some of 2nd.

That all sounds good, but I'm still curious how that manifests itself when driving/towing. To get that kind of torque at lower RPM is still a lot of boost to produce.

Chevrolet did the same thing with the Duramax when they still made a manual transmission. That was the final nail in the coffin for their manual trans sales numbers. The Allison is so good nobody wanted the manual to start with and when they neutered it there was even less reason to buy the manual. Ultimately this will happen to RAM as well. Few people are willing to take that kind of hit on performance just for a manual trans when spending 40k + on a new truck.

I'll agree that many of the newer generation automatics are really very good transmissions that do their jobs well. That said, most Americans just don't like shifting themselves anyway and prefer automatics. It's been this way for decades and is only getting worse. I'm probably more picky about how I want transmissions to work than the average person given my engineering background. I think most people don't care when it shifts so long as it goes when you hit the go pedal. I'm particular about my shift points, and I prefer the man-machine interaction of a manual transmission.

The best part about any of these diesels in the mountains, towing, was the first time you did it and realized you now had a turbo! LOL. (The EcoBoost Fords weren't lit back then...) The gassers without turbos just get lethargic up there. The driving technique for those is really boring. Floor it and watch water and oil temps. LOL.

That's for sure. Towing in the hills with a turbo is great. I remember hauling loads over your direction with the Dodge - keep the cruise set and just hear the turbo whistle more.

The noise (or lack thereof) of the newer 6.7s I'll admit is something that I don't love about them. The early 24-valves like yours I think are excessively loud, but I thought that my 2004 had the right combination of sound and muffling. But I would also expect to ditch the stock exhaust anyway, which would help.
 
I wasn't very clear on that. By putting the Ford Body on the Dodge chassis that eliminated the suspension problem of putting a much heavier engine in place of a lighter engine.
I knew what you intended....and I'd still lean towards the ford...
 
I know that modern automatics are better than I am most, if not all, of the time. I also know that paddle shifters and such are faster. If I want to race, I'll get the best tech I can. But for enjoyment, I still much prefer the manual.

I'm taking my youngest daughter out this afternoon to begin the process of learning to drive a stick-something I've insisted all of her older siblings do. It's old fashioned. It's a throwback. And it's a skill I value and enjoy.

John
 
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Just picked the truck back up from the dealer. They say it needs an engine. This was hooking the computer up to it which said the #2 cylinder is making 0% power (duh, I knew that already) and the #8 is down 40%.

They said they did the buzz test and all the injectors passed. One thing I'm wondering about, though, is if there's a bad enough leak on the oil side of the #2 injector wouldn't that cease to fire?

Part of me is thinking about pulling the valve cover and swapping the #2 and #4 injectors to see if there isn't something else going on. Part of me thinks forget it, time for something else.
 
Just picked the truck back up from the dealer. They say it needs an engine. This was hooking the computer up to it which said the #2 cylinder is making 0% power (duh, I knew that already) and the #8 is down 40%.

They said they did the buzz test and all the injectors passed. One thing I'm wondering about, though, is if there's a bad enough leak on the oil side of the #2 injector wouldn't that cease to fire?

Part of me is thinking about pulling the valve cover and swapping the #2 and #4 injectors to see if there isn't something else going on. Part of me thinks forget it, time for something else.
Whatever happened to the good old days when a couple of sleeve/piston sets and a rebuilt head was all that was ever needed? That was one time I preferred the Detroit to a Cummins - 600 ft-lb torque on the Cummins head bolts.
 
All manner of 6.0 and 6.7 long blocks on fleabay for around $4K. Don't know what you paid for the truck, but if you stole it, maybe it's worth the trouble of a swap over a weekend. You've got a barn, right? After all, you 're a farm boy now. This is what we do.
 
All manner of 6.0 and 6.7 long blocks on fleabay for around $4K. Don't know what you paid for the truck, but if you stole it, maybe it's worth the trouble of a swap over a weekend. You've got a barn, right? After all, you 're a farm boy now. This is what we do.

I'm not tackling an engine swap on this. Could I do it? Yes. Too busy though.
 
I would be shocked if you actually needed a motor Ted. Not sure where they got those percentages, but a non-functioning injector would show 0% contribution if that's what they were referring to.

I would try to find an independent diesel shop that is familiar with the 6L, even if they are performance-oriented, they may have a little more experience really digging into them.

My buddy said he has only seen two motors that were actually trashed in a lot of years of working on them, one was a result of bad install on heads, and one was an unexplained burned piston, if I recall correctly.

Did they offer an explanation? No compression?
 
I'm getting more skeptical, too. They just noticed the blow by and saw the 0% on the computer for #2. Claimed they did a buzz test but not sure if they made that up or not.

Went by the Dodge dealer and didn't like the new ones as much as my 04 overall, although some of that was they only had an automatic to test drive and it's too quiet.

I think I'll pull the valve cover off and start looking around in there, and probably swap the #2 and #4 injectors. Then try again. Also going to ohm out the FICM wiring to the injector.
 
Can you lay hands on an adapter to do a leakdown test on the purported bad cylinders? You hear air rushing out someplace, you got your answer. If not...
 
I'm getting more skeptical, too. They just noticed the blow by and saw the 0% on the computer for #2. Claimed they did a buzz test but not sure if they made that up or not.

I would be skeptical as well if they only said you have a problem, and did not or could not tell you what that problem is.

We don't diagnose engines, we just monitor the engine and tell you when you have a problem. You have a problem.....
 
Going to spitball one more idea. You keep messing with the injectors, so I assume you think it's a fuel problem. If the injector really does buzz test good, maybe you have a broken valve spring or a collapsed lifter? Carbon on the valve seat preventing a good seal? Could just be a good old fashioned mechanical problem rather than electronic glitch.
 
Dropped off the F-350 at the dealer. Explained that if they said it needed an engine, I was going to buy a Dodge.

So, does the owner of your Ford shop also own the local Dodge franchise? Could explain the quickie "dead engine" diagnosis converting into a new Dodge truck sale and a Ford trade-in they can fix and flop. o_O
 
Nah, different folks. I think these guys were honest, just didn't know anything about the engines.
 
Got the driver's side valve cover off. On the surface, everything looked fine. Note that this is a 2003 so it's the first year with no dummy plugs - just a log that goes across the injectors. I then hooked up the FICM and started the truck up.

I saw significant oil leaking right around the #2 injector. #4 and #6 looked to have a minor amount. According to one video I found, the little leakage when firing is normal, it's the gushing that will cause problems. So if I pull it apart and find a smoking gun, then I think I'll just get injectors and change those on the driver's side. Could also have leaking nipple seals or the stand pipe, so debating changing those as well. I figure tomorrow I'll run it again to look some more before I head in for parts.
 
Nah, different folks. I think these guys were honest, just didn't know anything about the engines.

It's like modern avionics repair shops nowadays...

"Yep, it doesn't light up. We'll send it to the manufacturer. We don't know anything about electronics here."
 
Dealer was wrong - swapped injectors and #2 works fine now. Has a bad pigtail too that was causing it to fire intermittently and some high pressure oil system leaks.

Going to just shotgun the thing. Injectors, stand pipes, and nipple cups and seals. Should be good to go after that.
 
Dealer was wrong - swapped injectors and #2 works fine now. Has a bad pigtail too that was causing it to fire intermittently and some high pressure oil system leaks.

Going to just shotgun the thing. Injectors, stand pipes, and nipple cups and seals. Should be good to go after that.
Well that's good news. It'd be funny to take it back to the dealer for diagnostics after the repair. Prolly not $100 funny though.
 
Well that's good news. It'd be funny to take it back to the dealer for diagnostics after the repair. Prolly not $100 funny though.

I'm going to call them up Monday and *****.
 
Glad to hear. It sounds more like the dealership just hooked up the diagnostics, saw it was missing on a cylinder or two and didn't want to mess with it. They probably didn't want to do any work on something that old. I wouldn't be surprised if they turn down a lot of 6.4L stuff, too. 6.OL/7.3L stuff they pass off to the private repair shops unless they can convince you to drop a new engine in it to make it worth their while. If you don't find much satisfaction from them through a phone call, I'd call Ford corporate about it. That's where the dealerships really feel the hit.
 
Glad to hear. It sounds more like the dealership just hooked up the diagnostics, saw it was missing on a cylinder or two and didn't want to mess with it. They probably didn't want to do any work on something that old.

Do they ever want to do anything beyond reading codes and replacing expensive bits ? I had a dealer tell me that 'the turbo is bad' after I brought the car to replace a stuck EGR valve. Towed the thing back home, busted some knuckles, replaced the valve and it started to make full boost again. That was 30k miles ago.
 
I'm going to call them up Monday and *****.

However, the diagnosis the customer was expecting was established by,

"Dropped off the F-350 at the dealer. Explained that if they said it needed an engine, I was going to buy a Dodge."
 
I'm going to call them up Monday and *****.

I think you've put $100 worth of work into it. If all they can do is plug a computer into it and read the screen, that sounds like refund time on the "diagnostics" to me.
 
If you end up buying something newer, DO NOT REMOVE THE EGR. That's 100% pointless and stupid - it increases your NOx emissions by a sh*t ton (and NOx are really bad for you), you gain absolutely nothing in power/fuel consumption, and modern EGR systems are very reliable. Clean the intake manifold once every 300-400k miles and you're good to go.
EGR deletes on modern diesels are pure stupidity, I've stopped doing them for my customers.
DPF, yeah ditch that, but keep the EGR.
 
If you end up buying something newer, DO NOT REMOVE THE EGR. That's 100% pointless and stupid - it increases your NOx emissions by a sh*t ton (and NOx are really bad for you), you gain absolutely nothing in power/fuel consumption, and modern EGR systems are very reliable. Clean the intake manifold once every 300-400k miles and you're good to go.
EGR deletes on modern diesels are pure stupidity, I've stopped doing them for my customers.
DPF, yeah ditch that, but keep the EGR.

That assumes the intake manifold is cleanable and it's really 300,000 miles before you have to do it.

Evidence on the street doesn't back that. Ford is replacing EcoBoost gasser intake mainfolds completely under warranty (but only once because you'll be out of warranty by the second one) for passenger side cylinder misfires -- because there is no approved cleaning method by Ford engineering. If you clean it with solvents, it's all going into the turbo and that's even more expensive a repair than replacing a clogged intake manifold.
 
When I cleaned the intake on my 2001 TDI, at 270K miles or so, I filled a 1 pound coffee can with the crap out of it. The factory settings are generally dialed way to high for the real world.
 
When I cleaned the intake on my 2001 TDI, at 270K miles or so, I filled a 1 pound coffee can with the crap out of it. The factory settings are generally dialed way to high for the real world.

Cleaned my wife's TDI intake to similar results.

Used VAGCOM to dial EGR to effectively zero. Seems to have helped.
 
I got the old harness out last night. It was pretty rough. The clips didn't secure into the FICM anymore, and it looked as though there'd been chafing and other repairs done at some point. For $200, worth changing out. I figure by Thursday I should have the whole thing together and we'll see how it runs. Probably swap out the injectors and put the new harness in tomorrow night, then do the stand pipes, nipple cups, etc on Wednesday/Thursday when the parts get in.
 
When I cleaned the intake on my 2001 TDI, at 270K miles or so, I filled a 1 pound coffee can with the crap out of it. The factory settings are generally dialed way to high for the real world.

They were known to soot up, but at least you could get to all the pieces. I did the EGR valve on my 2006 at 170k and there was only a bit of soot immediately around the valve so I decided not to pull the entire manifold.
 
I got the old harness out last night. It was pretty rough. The clips didn't secure into the FICM anymore, and it looked as though there'd been chafing and other repairs done at some point. For $200, worth changing out. I figure by Thursday I should have the whole thing together and we'll see how it runs. Probably swap out the injectors and put the new harness in tomorrow night, then do the stand pipes, nipple cups, etc on Wednesday/Thursday when the parts get in.

Very nice. I'd think you're well on your way to solving your issues based on what you've described.
 
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