Thinking About (ok bought) F-350 with PowerStroke 6.0L - Questions

I did the same thing with the wing off an Aero Commander 680, except that I could carry it flat. One wingtip was about 6' in front of the truck and the other overhung the back of the trailer about 3' when we left Phoenix. Got stopped twice before we got back to Fort Worth... It's an oddball thing to see running down the highway, so make sure you have all your truck and trailer paperwork handy and up todate. The DPS guy ended up hitting me for the trailer not having a current inspection and being 9' wide at a single point on the load.
 
SoonerAviator said:
Right, I was just thinking about the force of a 65mph wind getting "underneath" the wing and bending/stressing it. It's likely of little concern, and I certainly wouldn't expect it to exert enough force at those speeds to lift the structure/trailer, at least not before buckling, lol.
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Agreed.

Craig said:
I did the same thing with the wing off an Aero Commander 680, except that I could carry it flat. One wingtip was about 6' in front of the truck and the other overhung the back of the trailer about 3' when we left Phoenix. Got stopped twice before we got back to Fort Worth... It's an oddball thing to see running down the highway, so make sure you have all your truck and trailer paperwork handy and up todate. The DPS guy ended up hitting me for the trailer not having a current inspection and being 9' wide at a single point on the load.
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Yep, going to make sure all of that is up to snuff for sure.
 
denverpilot said:
"For a friend..." suuuuuure. LOL. Kidding. Just kidding.
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Seeing as the wing is not for a 414, it would not fit. And one wing wouldn't do me much good for building an experimental. ;)
 
Last night I programmed the ScanGauge to include Engine Oil Temp (since that is something the computer tracks). The stock oil cooler seems to be working fine, at least based on initial observations - oil temp only 6-8F higher than coolant temp.

I also looked into the vee a bit more and saw it did have an EGR delete kit on. This was the cheap kit, that just loops the coolant back around and has block-off plates for the EGR valve and the exhaust pipe. This is supposedly less desirable than just welding plugs onto the stock EGR setup, but it works for the moment.

I do think I have a coolant leak somewhere I need to look into. When I was putting the 4" exhaust on I saw a couple of drips coming from the starter area, so back passenger side of the engine. Nothing that was easily identifiable. It sometimes marks its territory but not significantly. Probably something relating to the heater/heater core or related hoses.
 
Ted DuPuis said:
Seeing as the wing is not for a 414, it would not fit. And one wing wouldn't do me much good for building an experimental. ;)
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You're not thinking outside of the box.
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Coolant on the valley tends to run down passenger's side. Drips off starter and bellhousing.

Could be hose that connects egr delete to the oil cooler. Can replace it and the clamps without pulling much. I've done it. Required beer and cuss words.

Can even pull that j pipe and hose down from intake manifold, weasel it out and back in without much else coming off. Requires more beer, and more cuss words.

Like the wing jig. I'd have supported "WIDE LOAD" banners and mounting it to the trailer such that you'd have needed to rig up the control surfaces to keep it flying straight and level behind you.
 
SaltH2OHokie said:
Coolant on the valley tends to run down passenger's side. Drips off starter and bellhousing.

Could be hose that connects egr delete to the oil cooler. Can replace it and the clamps without pulling much. I've done it. Required beer and cuss words.

Can even pull that j pipe and hose down from intake manifold, weasel it out and back in without much else coming off. Requires more beer, and more cuss words.

Like the wing jig. I'd have supported "WIDE LOAD" banners and mounting it to the trailer such that you'd have needed to rig up the control surfaces to keep it flying straight and level behind you.
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That sounds like a likely culprit then. I've heard that those EGR delete J-pipes are prone to leaks. I'll take a look at it further.

Today my wife drove it to give me something at work, and while it idled clean I did notice a small amount of white smoke when she applied throttle to drive off. I'm thinking that this remains a sticking injector and thus excess diesel in the exhaust. Could be coolant/head gasket, but it doesn't smell like it, the exhaust smells completely like diesel.

In good news, the oil cooler on the truck is fine. She noticed about a 5-8F difference between water temp and oil temp.
 
SoonerAviator said:
Lol, more-so on the modern stuff than the pre-90's stuff. So much more crap shoehorned into the engine bay now.
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I dunno. I was looking at where the transmission dipstick is on the 17 year old Subaru the other day with "Should be checked while transmission is hot" in mind and was wondering where I put the full arm gauntlets and whether my mechanic's gloves are made of something that will melt to my skin and then not come off. LOL.

But see? Beer will numb the pain and the cussing will keep my mind off of the smell of burning flesh.
 
Main, and maybe only, symptom of head gasket on these trucks is coolant overpressurization (that's not a word...) Mine never had the catastrophic puking of coolant that some describe, but it'd push some coolant past the cap on the degauss bottle. Too much pressure in the cylinders for coolant to get in... Instead combustion gases pressurize the coolant passages/system.

Your delta between oil and coolant is awesome. Even with brand new cooler after head job I was like 9. I've quit paying close attention now, but will look on way home from work.

denverpilot said:
I dunno. I was looking at where the transmission dipstick is on the 17 year old Subaru the other day with "Should be checked while transmission is hot" in mind and was wondering where I put the full arm gauntlets and whether my mechanic's gloves are made of something that will melt to my skin and then not come off. LOL.

But see? Beer will numb the pain and the cussing will keep my mind off of the smell of burning flesh.
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Still too modern. My '66 c10, I can get to every part pretty easily AND tell you what it does without extensive Google searching.
 
denverpilot said:
I dunno. I was looking at where the transmission dipstick is on the 17 year old Subaru the other day with "Should be checked while transmission is hot" in mind and was wondering where I put the full arm gauntlets and whether my mechanic's gloves are made of something that will melt to my skin and then not come off. LOL.

But see? Beer will numb the pain and the cussing will keep my mind off of the smell of burning flesh.
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17yr old Subi is still 1999-2000, I was referring to it being a good bit easier to work on before most cars became EFI/electronic ignition, lol. I can reach anything on a '67 Vette or '71 Chevelle, even with the big blocks shoved in there. The first car I personally ran into the tight-engine bay was my first car, an '88 300ZX Turbo. No room to reach anything on that car with the strut towers and turbo/intake piping! Definitely not a car you'd want to work on after running it for more than 5 minutes.
 
SaltH2OHokie said:
Main, and maybe only, symptom of head gasket on these trucks is coolant overpressurization (that's not a word...) Mine never had the catastrophic puking of coolant that some describe, but it'd push some coolant past the cap on the degauss bottle. Too much pressure in the cylinders for coolant to get in... Instead combustion gases pressurize the coolant passages/system.

Your delta between oil and coolant is awesome. Even with brand new cooler after head job I was like 9. I've quit paying close attention now, but will look on way home from work.
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Good info there. So the white smoke is definitely excess diesel fuel (so potentially a bad injector), and my head gaskets are in good shape as I'm not getting any puking of coolant. That drip seems likely to be the EGR delete pipe, so worth checking that.

Yeah, I'm really happy with the delta between the oil and coolant. That's a solid oil cooler. The previous owner didn't mention changing it, but my guess is it got changed when he had the HPOP done or at some other point fairly recently.

On the other side of it, the truck doesn't seem to like being shut down for 15 minutes. If it's under 5 minutes it starts back up fine. If it's more than 30 minutes it starts up fine. But that 15 minute window it takes about 10-15 seconds of cranking before it catches. The funny thing is that it behaves like an injected Lycoming in that regard. Not a big issue and the HPOP was replaced already so I'm not interested in replacing it again.

My guess is that the previous owner saw the smoke at cold start with the one injector that didn't fire and the slight coolant consumption and thought he had blown head gaskets so decided to sell the truck and didn't tell anyone who looked at it, being fed up after having rebuilt the front end and replaced all those other components. I'm guessing he started it up and let it run for a few minutes before I showed up to clear out that initial smoke so I didn't see it when I got there. This also explains why he priced it the way he did. He pretty clearly didn't know how to work on his own vehicles and paid someone else to do it, but he did seem to use good diesel shops. So, little work on my part and ended up getting a good deal on the truck. Of course still have to look into this coolant drip aspect but I'm not suspecting a head gasket or the like.

I am somewhat wondering if there's an injector issue to look at that may not be curable with the magic in a can, but I also don't know how long the stiction eliminator is supposed to take to work.
 
Ted: Program the ScanGauge to show IPR and ICP% and then watch during a hot crank. I'll bet you are seeing ICP head to 84% and a slow climb in IPR pressure above 500 PISG.
 
Craig said:
Ted: Program the ScanGauge to show IPR and ICP% and then watch during a hot crank. I'll bet you are seeing ICP head to 84% and a slow climb in IPR pressure above 500 PISG.
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Will do, I'll check.
 
I haven't done the above mentioned check of IPR and ICP%. I had a low/intermittent voltage issue with the truck. I replaced the alternator and that didn't do it, then I found the other connector on the alternator (I think the regulator) was bad, so I got a new connector and changed that. That seemed to fix it and I'll drive it some more tomorrow to see how that addresses the other issues.

I've been having two issues:

1) The truck doesn't seem to want to start when hot. If it's running, it's fine. If I shut it down and restart within a few minutes, fine. If I wait 15 minutes, it seems to need to wait another 15-25 or it won't restart.

2) The truck has bad lag off the line, and doesn't seem to have the midrange torque that it should. Boost looks to be fine, but it just has bad engine lag (not turbo lag). Idle to 1,500 RPM with it in gear is painfully slow, and it barely even sounds like it's trying to move. Once it gets above 1,500 it responds normally, but still doesn't feel like it has the midrange it should, and then does well at top end. My Excursion with a V10 in it (and basically the same gearing) feels much torquier.

These symptoms are making me think that this might need an IPR. In both cases low oil pressure on the high side could cause the problem observed. I had thought the voltage might also be a contributor (insufficient electricity = injectors can't open and close as well as they should) but a quick test drive didn't seem to show any difference. I may see it working better tomorrow.

Even when we got the truck I didn't think it had the mid range it should, and that hasn't changed. However the lag off the line has gotten significantly worse in the time since we got it as has the hot start issue. I don't know if this is typical of an IPR or something else.

Oh, and if I buy a new one, I'm figuring the genuine part only for something like that...

Any ideas from the 6.0L gurus?
 
Before pulling the IPR, do the pressure check I suggested earlier, and compare the numbers between a cold start and a hot one. Good numbers cold and lousy ones hot will indicate a high pressure oil leak. Good numbers cold and hot point elsewhere. The IPR can be pulled, cleaned and a new screen installed. Check the plug for cracking when you pull it. Mine had several cracks in the internal body. Easy to splice in a new plug.

I've been dealing with a no start that looks to be a flakey cam sensor. Also found the sensor plug and harness damaged. Weather permitting, I hope the get the new harness and plug spliced in today and the truck back running.
 
Craig said:
Before pulling the IPR, do the pressure check I suggested earlier, and compare the numbers between a cold start and a hot one. Good numbers cold and lousy ones hot will indicate a high pressure oil leak. Good numbers cold and hot point elsewhere. The IPR can be pulled, cleaned and a new screen installed. Check the plug for cracking when you pull it. Mine had several cracks in the internal body. Easy to splice in a new plug.

I've been dealing with a no start that looks to be a flakey cam sensor. Also found the sensor plug and harness damaged. Weather permitting, I hope the get the new harness and plug spliced in today and the truck back running.
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Yeah, I was going to do that hot start check. This morning I went to check when cold and it started basically instantly so there weren't many rounds on the ScanGauge. I think the highest I saw was about 55% on the IPR (or ICP, I forget which is the % there).

Hot start, though, you were dead on. Just walked out to test it. IPR went straight to 85% (well 84.9 or something to be exact) and ICP stayed below 500 psi. So that would explain the no start condition, so high pressure oil leak. Is your recommendation to pull/clean the IPR rather than replace? I have no idea how old this one is. I'll also check the plug and can splice in a new one if need be. I may do that anyway for good measure. It seems the plugs on these trucks aren't great. Somewhat leaning towards buying a new plug and IPR, just put those in and see what it does.

The voltage did seem to have an impact on driving. This morning when I started the truck it stayed somewhere in the mid 12s. Once I got down the road with the RPMs above 1,500, the alternator seemed to fully kick in and after that it ran a pretty consistent 13.9V. The fully range was around 13.6-14.4, but it definitely stabilized as I drove it more. I also noticed that my fuel boost pump was running around 62 PSI instead of the normal mid 50s. So that seems happier. The power off the line still doesn't seem like what I'd expect, but maybe that will improve once I get the IPR working.

I'm also wondering how much of my mid-range torque complaint has more to do with how the transmission is calibrated than anything. It seems to prefer to shift at 2,500-3,000 RPM. If this thing had a manual I'd be using more throttle and shifting it earlier. So that could be part of my gripe, but it seems I need to fix the high pressure oil issue and then reevaluate.
 
One last test before we start pointing at items to replace. You want to warm the truck up and force a hot, no start. When you have this set up, unplug the ICP sensor and try to start the truck. If it starts, then it may be an ICP sensor that failed, but I still would bet a cookie that it's an oil leak. The ICP sensor should be on the HPOP, so may be hard to get to while it's hot. I'd find it before I got the truck warm, so you know how to get to it quickly.

The IPR is nothing more than a cone valve on the end of a solenoid. It operates by a modulating the power to the solenoid in an on/off fashion. Pulse rate and duration control the valve position which controls the injection oil pressure. I'd plan on going ahead and changing the screen on it and having the connector on hand too. The big leak is one of two things.. either one of the dummy plugs or standpipes has a hard or torn o'ring, or you have an injector with the same thing. Based on the hot no start, I would suspect the dummy plugs and standpipes first thing. Unless they have already been changed, they are probably the old design and are prone to problems. If you pull a valve cover, it's easy to determine which you have. Old style ones use a 10mm allen, while the new ones use a 12mm. The new ones have a teflon backing ring to support the o'ring and are much less susceptible to failure.

I'll have to look tomorrow and see where I ordered everything from, as I shopped around on price for all the parts for mine.
 
@Craig I found the following video:


Where the tech expressed the importance of checking the ICP voltage as well as the reading. I'll check that as well, I had thought that I scrolled through it and it was fine, but I could be mistaken.

The O-rings sound annoying - I have no idea how difficult it is to get at these O-rings. About how big of a job does it end up being? I'll probably work on the IPR first just because that's easier to get at, and see if that impacts things any.
 
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Standpipes and dummy plugs are about 5 minutes a side after you get the valve covers off. Going slow, I'd estimate 2 hours for the first time someone does it. Check out DieselTechRon's videos on doing them. He lists what he uses for tools, as he was a full time Ford Diesel guy before getting killed in a wreck.
 
Thanks, I'll check those out. I might try the IPR first just to see if that fixes it, although it sounds like probably not.
 
lurkerLuke said:
When I saw this F-650: http://www.msn.com/en-us/autos/enthusiasts/show-‘n-tow-2007-ford-f-650-when-really-big-is-not-quite-enough/ar-BBBHRRr?ocid=iehp I though of the old "Go Big or Go Home".

Then recalled Ted already went Big and Took it Home. :)

Still thought some of you might like to see that truck.

From a guy that drives an econobox beater.
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I've seen trucks like those. They're cool and all, but have limited use in my opinion. The F-350 really fits our needs very well.

I ended up deciding to order a new IPR and will try changing that, probably an ICP sensor next if the IPR doesn't do it. I know @Craig is probably right and the leak is most likely under the valve covers, but I figured that it's worth a shot. I'll also look at the pigtail on the IPR (and ICP if needed).

I also am going to look at the pigtail on the MAP. At high power the ScanGauge will intermittently read between max boost (around 22 psi) and then drop to -14 psi (negative 14 psi, so basically 0 ambient pressure). There is no change in running associated with that drop, but it makes me think that the truck is getting a bad signal intermittently, which may have some contributions elsewhere. Certainly that made a difference on my alternator, which seemed to have a difference in overall running.
 
Ted: You will need an IPR socket to pull it. The electrical connector is a right angle plug and on the opposite end of the threads. The socket has a notch cut into it from the open end almost to the drive end.
 
Craig said:
Ted: You will need an IPR socket to pull it. The electrical connector is a right angle plug and on the opposite end of the threads. The socket has a notch cut into it from the open end almost to the drive end.
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Ordered one of those, too. :)
 
Another question for the 6.0 guys. The truck feels like it has an awful lot of lag from idle up to 1500 RPMs. I'm reading on the forums that this is a common "feature" of the 6.0 that was basically for EPA purposes, and that a number of chips can help to correct that. The lag is downright scary and in some cases dangerous, I just have a hard time believing this is truly how the truck was built. Is it really this bad? For what it's worth, the truck is an automatic and has highway gears (70 MPH @ 2000 RPM), plus is a crew cab long bed 4x4, so it's the heaviest of the bunch.

Really the turbo lag doesn't seem too terrible when you're above 1,500 RPM. It's pretty close to what I remember from my Cummins. But this off-the-line stuff is awful. My Cummins was the same generation (2004.5 vs. 2003) but a manual, so off the line was a little different.

If the solution to this really is a chip, I'd be interested in which ones are recommended. I'd ideally like something that also gives me more control over the transmission or perhaps makes it lock up the torque converter more.
 
Just another few mods and Ted will be rollin' coal... LOL!

Come to the dark side, Ted. You can get love letters in the mail from your State with people reporting your truck as evil like me. Hahahaha.

(And no kids, for those who haven't read the other threads I don't roll coal in my truck.)
 
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denverpilot said:
Just another few mods and Ted will be rollin' coal... LOL!

Come to the dark side, Ted. You can get love letters in the mail from your State with people reporting your truck as evil like me. Hahahaha.

(And no kids, for those who haven't read the other threads I don't roll coal in my truck.)
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I'm not one for rolling coal (the engineers went to an insane amount of effort to make them not smoke), but I don't mind a little puff of smoke off idle if it's the difference between something that will get me run over in traffic and something that will actually move off the line with some level of safety.

I could certainly see it being a turbo lag issue, and that would also explain the move to 6.6-6.7L diesels for all the makes. The right displacement to get the desired power without the undesired lag.
 
Zeldman said:
I have seen a number of these in and around Moab, usually pulling multiple Jeeps with tires just as big as on the tow vehicle.
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Moab is an interesting place. Lots and lots of money flushed down the drain there every weekend as things break, and have to be cut off with a torch, but oh so fun.

I decided to get out of off road Jeeping before it became a multiple hundred dollar a weekend habit of break/fix. Managed to do plenty with a stock XJ of all things with slightly bigger tires and a small lift, and a block and tackle for when I got into location trouble, but knew the next steps were going to get really expensive relatively if I wanted to tackle tougher trails.
 
denverpilot said:
Moab is an interesting place. Lots and lots of money flushed down the drain there every weekend as things break, and have to be cut off with a torch, but oh so fun.

I decided to get out of off road Jeeping before it became a multiple hundred dollar a weekend habit of break/fix. Managed to do plenty with a stock XJ of all things with slightly bigger tires and a small lift, and a block and tackle for when I got into location trouble, but knew the next steps were going to get really expensive relatively if I wanted to tackle tougher trails.
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That is so much the truth.!!

So you got out of off roading and into a cheaper hobby of airplanes..??:lol::lol::lol:
 
Zeldman said:
That is so much the truth.!!

So you got out of off roading and into a cheaper hobby of airplanes..??:lol::lol::lol:
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Uhhhh yep. Airplanes, ham radio, got the fifth wheel (but it's for sale now), shooting, haha... they're all expensive.
 
denverpilot said:
Uhhhh yep. Airplanes, ham radio, got the fifth wheel (but it's for sale now), shooting, haha... they're all expensive.
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You aren't kidding on the shooting costs. I have an acquaintance that has a 75mm Field Piece. Not only is ammo expensive, but he had to go buy a place big enough to go shoot it.
 
Craig said:
You aren't kidding on the shooting costs. I have an acquaintance that has a 75mm Field Piece. Not only is ammo expensive, but he had to go buy a place big enough to go shoot it.
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LOL you won't be finding that ammo in a vending machine!
 
Craig said:
You aren't kidding on the shooting costs. I have an acquaintance that has a 75mm Field Piece. Not only is ammo expensive, but he had to go buy a place big enough to go shoot it.
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Yikes, doesn't that have like a 9000 yard range..??
 
Well, my new IPR valve arrived today. When I get home I'll try it out and see if it seems to make any difference.
 
Sigh. Looking at videos, this isn't fun to get at. Well, I'll get it done sometime this weekend... probably. Debating if I want to order a new IPR pigtail and then just wait and do both at once so that I can rule it out entirely.
 
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