Thinking about fixing my barn or building a hangar

[Ted]

Yesterday we had a significant storm roll through. We got lucky - only pea sized hail, lot of rain. We didn't see any rotation in the clouds but there was a bow echo and this same storm produced the tornado taking out the Lebanon, MO airport. Basically Kansas doing Kansas things.

We had one tree get some big limbs knocked out and blocking the driveway. The front end loader made quick work of that.

I knew the barn had issues when I was walking towards it and saw light coming in from the roof. Oops, that's not supposed to happen:

That wall is also leaning quite a bit. The wall itself isn't structural and the structural support posts are all still standing upright and seem undamaged. However, the barn itself is in overall not very good condition. It's over 100 years old, the windows are basically all broken. It's too short to be very useful. I can't fit any of the bigger equipment in it, just the Ford 9N, a couple go-karts, and the riding mower, all of which I can store elsewhere.

When we bought the property my initial thought was to tear down the barn, concerned about the kids sneaking in it and getting themselves hurt. We've come to love the old Kansas charm that it has (the other side is the pretty side), but it isn't useful and would take a lot of work to make it semi-useful.

With work continuing on the runway and the tree removal almost completed, this is really not a bad time to start work on a hangar. The barn location is really the best place for the hangar, providing the best balance of proximity to the runway, proximity to the house (while also not being too close), back far enough from the road, etc. The current environment may be good, too, although contractors still seem swamped and prices haven't come down much for things in general (yet) but that may change. Or I may be able to get enough friends together to do a barn raising.

Decisions...

 

[CJones]

You would probably end up investing as much to fix that barn as you would building something new that actually meets your needs.

It's definitely a cool looking barn, though. I don't remember the inside - is it old enough to be rough cut beams or is it all machined? Either way, save the wood and tin - it would make a good chicken coop.

 

[Cap'n Jack]

It's a shame these old barns are going away, but the weathered look is part of the charm. Hard to keep them weathered and standing.
If you choose to take it down, remember there's a market ( or used to be, pre-covid-19) for that old wood.

I know little about the market, other than it exists, and they may just offer to haul off the wood for you. I merely suggest an option. The links below are only a couple sites, google "sell old wood"
https://pioneermillworks.com/sell-us-your-wood
https://www.architectmagazine.com/t...lls-you-where-to-buy-and-sell-salvaged-wood_o

 

[Greg Bockelman]

I f you fixed the barn up, you would still need to build the hangar, so...

 

[Ted]

You would probably end up investing as much to fix that barn as you would building something new that actually meets your needs.

That's kinda how I feel about it.

It's definitely a cool looking barn, though. I don't remember the inside - is it old enough to be rough cut beams or is it all machined? Either way, save the wood and tin - it would make a good chicken coop.

It's all rough cut beams. Our general thought is to let some people do reclaiming to get the old wood and roofing metal out (that seems to be a popular thing) while we work on getting the stuff together for the hangar, and just start work on that.

The other question is what we want the total layout and end goal to be. So for example do we put in a concrete floor or dirt/gravel. I go back and forth on this. We're putting a Cub in there and there's no reason we can't work with gravel just fine for that. And given that we'll also put some of the heavy equipment in, gravel may be considered preferable. However long term Laurie wants to have the garage back for parking her cars in, which would mean moving the shop out to the hangar/shop. Really as long as I went with 6" concrete that would be doable, although since I just went ahead and added HVAC to the garage last summer, I'm not sure I'm 100% on board with fully moving the shop out to the hangar - nothing saying I couldn't add HVAC to the hangar if I wanted and have two shops. Plus having a larger shop with appropriately thick floor that could support other items like, say, a bus or a semi, would be a good thing. Doubt I'd want to put the dozer on a concrete floor but I suppose even that would be ok.

 

[Greg Bockelman]

You want a concrete floor. With a pad out front. If you don’t think it is affordable now, plan for it as a future upgrade.

 

[Juliet Hotel]

Get rid of it. Build a hanger in its place that looks like it did only bigger and straighter.

 

[MIFlyer]

Ted, I was thinking of you guys with the storms rolling through your general area. My thoughts are like anything to do a prioritization exercise

1. you want a hangar
2. you (and Laurie) want a proper shop. You guys are always working on things, have tons of toys and equipment, so I'd build a big one if you're staying there long term (probably 40x60 with an additional carport side, PLUS whatever space the plane needs
3. I think that old barn is cool, and if you can afford it and find a way to fit it into an overall plan, I'd sure be tempted to either repair it and leave it as a standalone, recover the wood and use it to at least facade one or two sides of the new building, OR get more clever, rebuild it and make it an appendage to the new building.

An additional option could be that you repair the barn, it becomes the workshop, and then you build a large, but not as large new hangar/workshop as another building. Everyone has a different view on this, my wife hates "tons of tiny buildings and sheds" look, but she also doesn't like the idea of a big shop, so who knows how we'd solve this

 

[Bill]

3. I think that old barn is cool, and if you can afford it and find a way to fit it into an overall plan, I'd sure be tempted to either repair it and leave it as a standalone, recover the wood and use it to at least facade one or two sides of the new building, OR get more clever, rebuild it and make it an appendage to the new building.

There is a guy in the area with a nice collection of antique cars. His "barn" looks like an old barn from the outside, but inside the barn is a state of the art climate controlled storm proofed building. Just looks like an old barn, though...

 

[IK04]

If I had such a barn I would tear it down, build a new, slightly taller structure and then put as much of the original wood on the outside walls to keep the original look.

Use enough of the old wood to cover the sides most often seen from the house and use new stuff everywhere else...

Oh, and convert it into a hangar in the process.

 

[Zeldman]

Just fix the roof then convert it into a bar.

Don't forget to put chicken wire up to protect the ''Good Ole' Boys'' on the stage.....

 

[MIFlyer]

There is a guy in the area with a nice collection of antique cars. His "barn" looks like an old barn from the outside, but inside the barn is a state of the art climate controlled storm proofed building. Just looks like an old barn, though...

View attachment 85498

Yes, that has a high "wife acceptance factor"

 

[Ted]

A few more pictures. I think this thing is done. Now the question, do I call the insurance or not?

 

[Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe]

We're putting a Cub in there and there's no reason we can't work with gravel just fine for that.

Until the first (or 500th) time you drop a small part and spend half an hour looking for it before you give up.

 

[SoonerAviator]

Go with concrete on the flooring. Parking equipment on gravel is one thing, working on them and doing maintenance on gravel is another. Jackstands, lifts, jack's, etc. don't work that well on gravel, creepers and mechanics stools don't work at all. Not to mention finding dropped parts and tools. Sure it's much more expensive, but is worth it. If you want covered parking for the heavy equipment like the dozer or similar, design a lean-to with gravel floor off of one side or the back. Build in some windows that open up to help airflow and provide natural light.

 

[-KLB-]

So many options, combinations and possibilities. You can’t beat a dirt or gravel floor pole barn for cost per SF of mostly weather protected, lockable space. And you can’t beat the comfort of a well constructed, concrete floor, climate controlled workshop. My parents have a modern wood framed 30x60 steel building on slab that serves as a 3 car garage with one bay intended for drive in projects, and the remaining 30x40 has been insulated, and set up with plywood interior walls, Sheetrock ceiling, and climate control, and currently serves as a mix of storage and workshop.

They also have a tractor barn that started as a decrepit 16x25 shed roof. We added better structure under the roof, and added girts, siding and 2 sliding doors to make it lockable. Later, we added on with more poles, changed the pitch of half of the existing roof, and expanded it to roughly 30x25. It is amazing how much equipment and supplies migrates into a structure like that once you have one.

All that said, it is possible to build a pole barn and pay enough attention to roofing and details that you can pour a slab in, and insulate and climate control some or all of it. And you could pick and choose what portions you elect to pour slab flooring, and what you leave dirt or gravel for equipment. If you don’t have a slab under an older tractor, it may be easier to pretend it doesn’t leak. So lots of options, one or two buildings, combined uses or separated, and on and on.

 

[timwinters]

build a hanger! I just might know where there's the perfect door for you...

 

[Ted]

build a hanger! I just might know where there's the perfect door for you...

I've been wanting to buy that door from you for some time... maybe it's time. I need to do some measuring to see if a 50' hangar is something that could fit in that spot. 50x60 would, of course, be better than 40x60.

 

[Kenny Phillips]

Build a hangar, and paint this on the side:

 

[timwinters]

Build a hangar, and paint this on the side:

Is that the one that's on Highway 22 between Cambridge and Steubenville OH by chance?

(At least I think that's where I remember seeing it...or one very similar)

It could've been between Cambridge and Zanesville on some back highway also...

 

[Kenny Phillips]

Is that the one that's on Highway 22 between Cambridge and Steubenville OH by chance?

(At least I think that's where I remember seeing it...or one very similar)

It could've been between Cambridge and Zanesville on some back highway also...

We saw what seemed to be hundreds of them as we drove from Akron to Blacksville, WV to visit granny. I always thought that that was a cool idea: the farmer gets his barn painted, and MP gets an advertisement. Says the guy who had both parents die from tobacco-related causes. That's a random picture from the web.

 

[FormerHangie]

Is that the one that's on Highway 22 between Cambridge and Steubenville OH by chance?

(At least I think that's where I remember seeing it...or one very similar)

It could've been between Cambridge and Zanesville on some back highway also...

Or you could do one of these:

It kinda sorta has an aviation connection, since the U. S.'s largest hang gliding school is on Lookout Mountain.

 

[Everskyward]

I thought your barn was cool but it looks like a lost cause now. I like the idea of integrating some of the parts into your new structure, whatever it is.

 

[timwinters]

Or you could do one of these:

It kinda sorta has an aviation connection, since the U. S.'s largest hang gliding school is on Lookout Mountain.

Rock city has to be the biggest...hokiest...tourist trap I've ever been to in my life! And that says a lot since I've seen most of Branson's garbage!!!

but back to Ted's barn and/or hangar!

 

[asicer]

Build a hangar, and paint this on the side:

Put the PoA logo on there and he could justify appropriating from the donation fund.

 

[Ted]

Put the PoA logo on there and he could justify appropriating from the donation fund.

I wouldn’t do that.

But feel free to make me an offer on the advertising space yourself.

 

[CJones]

I'll second the votes for a concrete floor - at least in a working area. I think a pull-through shop/hangar with concrete floor + climate control with high-roof lean-to's on each side with a gravel floor for storage of equipment would fit the bill pretty nicely. We (as in dad and I did all the framing work) recently built a 40x50 shop on my parents' place. He ended up using batt insulation in the 2x6x12' walls and spray foam insulation directly to the trusses, so we don't even have a suspended ceiling in there. Then he put a small split-unit HVAC and that thing is always perfect working conditions. He spec'ed out the trusses for light storage down the middle, so now he has a small winch on one end of the shop that he can use to hoist stuff (Christmas decorations, misc. hardly-ever-use stuff, etc.) up for storage out of the way and doesn't have to worry about heat in the summer warping things b/c it's climate controlled from roof to floor.

 

[Ted]

I agree that concrete floor is the ideal way to go, at least for a good portion of it.

Specing things is the challenge for the moment as well as getting availability and pricing. And deciding which setup I want - pole barn, full metal building resting on the concrete... yeah. Options.

 

[Bell206]

Specing things is the challenge for the moment as well as getting availability and pricing.

FYI: Look into Mueller Steel. Great outfit and people. Have used them on several aviation/non-aviation projects. And I believe they're in your neighborhood also. They mfg so offer good pricing and provide engineered custom offerings as well.

 

[Ted]

FYI: Look into Mueller Steel. Great outfit and people. Have used them on several aviation/non-aviation projects. And I believe they're in your neighborhood also. They mfg so offer good pricing and provide engineered custom offerings as well.

Thanks, I'll check them out. Looking at their website it looks like they definitely have good options at reasonable prices. Their 40x60x16 "DIY" assembly building is quite interesting. However it does look like the closest to us would be in Oklahoma, so I don't know if that's worthwhile.

 

[Bell206]

so I don't know if that's worthwhile.

I found even with extended shipping they were very competitive. On my current 30x40 shop I moved the rollup door to fit my needs and wanted it to meet a utility level wind rating. The stamped engineer drawing cost me $100. Worth the call.

 

[Southpaw]

Doubt I'd want to put the dozer on a concrete floor but I suppose even that would be ok.

I worked 2 summers with a neighbor farmer. He farmed with a D6 cat. When not in the field it was in a concrete floor building. We ran it in on planks . It was never left out side in the elements other then actual field time.

 

[luvflyin]

Yesterday we had a significant storm roll through. We got lucky - only pea sized hail, lot of rain. We didn't see any rotation in the clouds but there was a bow echo and this same storm produced the tornado taking out the Lebanon, MO airport. Basically Kansas doing Kansas things.

We had one tree get some big limbs knocked out and blocking the driveway. The front end loader made quick work of that.

I knew the barn had issues when I was walking towards it and saw light coming in from the roof. Oops, that's not supposed to happen:

That wall is also leaning quite a bit. The wall itself isn't structural and the structural support posts are all still standing upright and seem undamaged. However, the barn itself is in overall not very good condition. It's over 100 years old, the windows are basically all broken. It's too short to be very useful. I can't fit any of the bigger equipment in it, just the Ford 9N, a couple go-karts, and the riding mower, all of which I can store elsewhere.

When we bought the property my initial thought was to tear down the barn, concerned about the kids sneaking in it and getting themselves hurt. We've come to love the old Kansas charm that it has (the other side is the pretty side), but it isn't useful and would take a lot of work to make it semi-useful.

With work continuing on the runway and the tree removal almost completed, this is really not a bad time to start work on a hangar. The barn location is really the best place for the hangar, providing the best balance of proximity to the runway, proximity to the house (while also not being too close), back far enough from the road, etc. The current environment may be good, too, although contractors still seem swamped and prices haven't come down much for things in general (yet) but that may change. Or I may be able to get enough friends together to do a barn raising.

Decisions...

Do both. Make the barn a hangar. https://www.airspacemag.com/history-of-flight/an-airplane-in-every-barn-20047970/

 

[CJones]

I assume they're still around, but when we lived in Iowa, Morton Buildings were the big name for metal buildings on farms. They may be pricey, though - only the farms with nice manicured lawns had them.

 

[Ted]

Do both. Make the barn a hangar. https://www.airspacemag.com/history-of-flight/an-airplane-in-every-barn-20047970/

That is the actual intent, it's more just a question of how exactly we orient and design it. When my wife gets home we need to do some walking around with a tape measure to get an idea.

I assume they're still around, but when we lived in Iowa, Morton Buildings were the big name for metal buildings on farms. They may be pricey, though - only the farms with nice manicured lawns had them.

Morton is still around. And yes, they are still very pricey.

 

[luvflyin]

That is the actual intent, it's more just a question of how exactly we orient and design it. When my wife gets home we need to do some walking around with a tape measure to get an idea.

have her help with the demolition of the old one.

 

[Matthew Rogers]

have her help with the demolition of the old one.

WTF was that? Looks like what the YouTube stars of 1930 were doing to get more likes.

 

[Will Kumley]

Yesterday we had a significant storm roll through. We got lucky - only pea sized hail, lot of rain. We didn't see any rotation in the clouds but there was a bow echo and this same storm produced the tornado taking out the Lebanon, MO airport. Basically Kansas doing Kansas things.

We had one tree get some big limbs knocked out and blocking the driveway. The front end loader made quick work of that.

I knew the barn had issues when I was walking towards it and saw light coming in from the roof. Oops, that's not supposed to happen:

That wall is also leaning quite a bit. The wall itself isn't structural and the structural support posts are all still standing upright and seem undamaged. However, the barn itself is in overall not very good condition. It's over 100 years old, the windows are basically all broken. It's too short to be very useful. I can't fit any of the bigger equipment in it, just the Ford 9N, a couple go-karts, and the riding mower, all of which I can store elsewhere.

When we bought the property my initial thought was to tear down the barn, concerned about the kids sneaking in it and getting themselves hurt. We've come to love the old Kansas charm that it has (the other side is the pretty side), but it isn't useful and would take a lot of work to make it semi-useful.

With work continuing on the runway and the tree removal almost completed, this is really not a bad time to start work on a hangar. The barn location is really the best place for the hangar, providing the best balance of proximity to the runway, proximity to the house (while also not being too close), back far enough from the road, etc. The current environment may be good, too, although contractors still seem swamped and prices haven't come down much for things in general (yet) but that may change. Or I may be able to get enough friends together to do a barn raising.

Decisions...

Is the barn sound enough to be repaired for a reasonable price? Your adding a runway to your property. I say if you can swing it, build a new hangar next to the barn, fix up the barn enough so its safe and host an annual fly in. The barn will give attendees a place to sit and relax, you get to keep the charm of its history, and the hangar you build won't need to be as large. When not hosing a fly in the barn could be used for other storage if you need it.

 

[Ted]

Is the barn sound enough to be repaired for a reasonable price? Your adding a runway to your property. I say if you can swing it, build a new hangar next to the barn, fix up the barn enough so its safe and host an annual fly in. The barn will give attendees a place to sit and relax, you get to keep the charm of its history, and the hangar you build won't need to be as large. When not hosing a fly in the barn could be used for other storage if you need it.

I think you're overestimating the charm of the barn.

It really is not good for much of anything besides looking at the outside of. Yes, it is cool to look at and adds charm to the property. It's never been a structure you really want to be inside of. To try to redo and update it to have a cool interior would be really, really expensive.

We also are not planning on fly-ins. Nope. This is our runway for our plane. A few select friends will be allowed to land with our knowledge, but keep in mind we're talking a 1,000 ft strip. Not a lot of planes can comfortably do that anyway. We have our annual bonfire, and that will be it. I doubt that many (if any) of our friends will fly into our airport for that. Thinking about the normal attendees, only one or two actually fly planes that could make it in and out.

 

[Will Kumley]

I think you're overestimating the charm of the barn.

It really is not good for much of anything besides looking at the outside of. Yes, it is cool to look at and adds charm to the property. It's never been a structure you really want to be inside of. To try to redo and update it to have a cool interior would be really, really expensive.

We also are not planning on fly-ins. Nope. This is our runway for our plane. A few select friends will be allowed to land with our knowledge, but keep in mind we're talking a 1,000 ft strip. Not a lot of planes can comfortably do that anyway. We have our annual bonfire, and that will be it. I doubt that many (if any) of our friends will fly into our airport for that. Thinking about the normal attendees, only one or two actually fly planes that could make it in and out.

Well, the 1000 ft runway would surely dissuade a fair number of people so I guess my thoughts would be moot at that point and if its gonna cost too much money to redo they yeah, tear it down and build a proper hangar. Get a cool photo of the outside of it and frame it to put up if you want, or try to salvage some of the wood to be used as part of the new hangar if you want, even if only for a decorative piece.