Thinking about Buying my first plane.

[Ever Beaumont]

I am a new pilot ( just around 60 hours ) . I took a long break from my flight training, so I pretty much have to start all the way over (which is ok) but this time I was thinking of just purchasing my own plane instead of learning on a rental. It was something I had wanted to do from the beginning and now I'm in a better financial position to do it.

I wanted to get some opinions on what you think is a good starter plane to own. I plan to use the plane for recreational flying and traveling. Budget around $70k-$120k. Was looking at Cessna's, Piper Arrows,& Cherokees, cirrus sr20.

Any feedback would be greatly appreciated. I'm located in Miami Fl.

 

[asicer]

I think it was @WannFly that said the purchase price is just a down payment for the maintenance bills. Allocate somewhere around 50%-100% for the first few years worth of MX.

That said, your budget might get you into an older Bo.

 

[Kristin]

How many folks do you want to fly with you and how long do you expect to make your trips? Figuring out your typical mission is the first step.

 

[Ever Beaumont]

How many folks do you want to fly with you and how long do you expect to make your trips? Figuring out your typical mission is the first step.

4 Passenger is fine. Im ok with a few hundred miles at a time.

I think it was @WannFly that said the purchase price is just a down payment for the maintenance bills. Allocate somewhere around 50%-100% for the first few years worth of MX.

That said, your budget might get you into an older Bo.

Im ok with keeping up with maintenance. I currently own a transportation company. I spend about $4000/ month in maintenance lol. Im all to familiar with the pain of maintenance. Im ok with an older plane. god willing, id upgrade in 5-10 years.

 

[Kristin]

4 Passenger is fine. Im ok with a few hundred miles at a time.

Im ok with keeping up with maintenance. I currently own a transportation company. I spend about $4000/ month in maintenance lol. Im all to familiar with the pain of maintenance. Im ok with an older plane. god willing, id upgrade in 5-10 years.

Unless you think your last aircraft will be something more seriously complex, like a SE turboprop or twin-engine anything, buy your last airplane first. That way, you can put the acquisition costs of the second plane into the first plane and you can equip the aircraft the way you want it without losing a bunch on the sale when switching to the second aircraft.

Do you anticipate using the aircraft in your business? Is cargo hauling capacity a consideration? When you say a few hundred miles at a time, is that the entire length of a day's trip or individual legs of a much longer trip? I ask because speed is more of an issue if you are planning to fly 800 miles in a day rather than 300-400 miles in a day.

 

[Juliet Hotel]

I don't know that I'd want to touch a Piper low wing until the wing spar AD deal gets sorted out.

Your budget will get you into lots of 172's and some older 182's. Your budget seems a little light for any SR20 a first time buyer would want to own.

Tigers are in your budget and perform well. An older Bonanza or Mooney would work as well but they'll be older so a few expensive annuals should be expected.

 

[asicer]

May as well throw in a Super Viking, Comanche and Sierra as well.

A DA40 will probably be as much of a purchase stretch as a SR20 but will probably be a little less MX over the long run.

 

[Kristin]

I don't know that I'd want to touch a Piper low wing until the wing spar AD deal gets sorted out.

Not all Pipers were designed in Vero Beach. Comanches for one have entirely different wing structure and are much more strongly built than any of the Cherokee series. They are not affected by any proposed AD.

 

[Juliet Hotel]

Not all Pipers were designed in Vero Beach. Comanches for one have entirely different wing structure and are much more strongly built than any of the Cherokee series. They are not affected by any proposed AD.

Agreed. The insurance bill on a Comanche might be on the high side for a student unless you stick to the 180hp versions. But then again, probably not much different than a Bo.

 

[Ever Beaumont]

Unless you think your last aircraft will be something more seriously complex, like a SE turboprop or twin-engine anything, buy your last airplane first. That way, you can put the acquisition costs of the second plane into the first plane and you can equip the aircraft the way you want it without losing a bunch on the sale when switching to the second aircraft.

Do you anticipate using the aircraft in your business? Is cargo hauling capacity a consideration? When you say a few hundred miles at a time, is that the entire length of a day's trip or individual legs of a much longer trip? I ask because speed is more of an issue if you are planning to fly 800 miles in a day rather than 300-400 miles in a day.

I do luxury transportation, so it would not fit the bill. So no I wouldn't use it in my business, just recreational flying for the wife and I, maybe the kids. Ive seen a few cirrus sr20 around 120k . I guess one of my questions are , is it better to get something a little newer and spend a little more and save $$ in maintenance than something older where you end up paying the difference anyway. I learned on 172 so im ok with those as well.

Something that flies 400-500 miles at a time is fine.

Agreed. The insurance bill on a Comanche might be on the high side for a student unless you stick to the 180hp versions. But then again, probably not much different than a Bo.

whats a BO?​

 

[Ever Beaumont]

How much is average insurance cost for a plane in that price range for a newer pilot? is it over $1000/ month?

 

[Doc Holliday]

whats a BO?​

Internet slang for Bonanza. An attempt to look cool on the forum, because we all know writing out the name takes too much energy and time.

 

[SkyChaser]

Oh, someone beat me!

Beechcraft Bonanza.

 

[simtech]

How much is average insurance cost for a plane in that price range for a newer pilot? is it over $1000/ month?

No...a little more than that for a year. Probably more like $2k a year.

 

[Ever Beaumont]

No...a little more than that for a year. Probably more like $2k a year.

Yeah that's nothing compared to what im paying now, that's good to know. My sprinters cost $1000/month each. If you buy a plane from 1960's will you have to fix/mx it constantly?

 

[steingar]

Yeah that's nothing compared to what im paying now, that's good to know. My sprinters cost $1000/month each. If you buy a plane from 1960's will you have to fix/mx it constantly?

I just got my 1962 Mooney M20c Ranger back from annual. I spent $2700, which was my most expensive annual ever and fixed several squawks and a couple upgrades. I think I spent $1000 on other maintenance during the year. Now my Mooney has manual gear and flaps (actually, the flap repair was one of the big expenses, go figure). An aircraft with more expensive systems will cost more. And who does your maintenance matters a lot. My $2700 annual would have been a lot more had I gone to a different facility.

 

[Ever Beaumont]

I just got my 1962 Mooney M20c Ranger back from annual. I spent $2700, which was my most expensive annual ever and fixed several squawks and a couple upgrades. I think I spent $1000 on other maintenance during the year. Now my Mooney has manual gear and flaps (actually, the flap repair was one of the big expenses, go figure). An aircraft with more expensive systems will cost more. And who does your maintenance matters a lot. My $2700 annual would have been a lot more had I gone to a different facility.

Thank you for the info. That's really not all that bad. still unsure which direction to go though.

 

[Half Fast]

Oh, someone beat me!

Beechcraft Bonanza.

Alternative pic:

 

[Juliet Hotel]

How much is average insurance cost for a plane in that price range for a newer pilot? is it over $1000/ month?

Depends on the plane. If you buy something students tend to learn in (C172, C150, Cherokee etc) it could be $1k/yr or less. If you buy a 250hp retractable gear plane, it'll likely be $3k-$4k/yr until you get a bunch of hours in it and/or an instrument ticket.

Yeah that's nothing compared to what im paying now, that's good to know. My sprinters cost $1000/month each.

$1000/month is not terrible if you're talking about an asset that will generate many times that in revenue per month. A plane is a toy. Kind of apples/oranges comparison there IMO.

If you buy a plane from 1960's will you have to fix/mx it constantly?

Depends on the plane and its MX history. Get something that's been well maintained with nothing deferred and it shouldn't be too bad once your mechanic fixes everything he personally doesn't like that the old mechanic was ok with. Get something that's had lots of pencil whipped maintenance and it could cost quite a bit to get it back up to snuff.

 

[Kristin]

I do luxury transportation, so it would not fit the bill. So no I wouldn't use it in my business, just recreational flying for the wife and I, maybe the kids. Ive seen a few cirrus sr20 around 120k . I guess one of my questions are , is it better to get something a little newer and spend a little more and save $$ in maintenance than something older where you end up paying the difference anyway. I learned on 172 so im ok with those as well.

Something that flies 400-500 miles at a time is fine.

Speed doesn't seem to be much of an issue. No apparent reason to get too much into speed and complexity. I would suggest looking at the following, in no particular order: C-177 Cardinal, C-182 Skylane; PA-28-180 (1973 to 1975), PA-28-181, PA-28-235 (1973-1977), PA-28-236 Dakota, or maybe a Grumman Tiger. All are basically the same class and all have their minor advantages and disadvantages, but likely will do what you want them to do.

 

[bflynn]

That said, your budget might get you into an older Bo.

Older Bo? Make that 100-200% for the first few years of MX.

Early model Mooneys are also very much in that price range, nicely equipped for IFR.

 

[AU_James]

In my Archer II (180hp Cherokee) I plan for no more than 400 miles per leg which gives me at least an hour of reserve. I usually stop to stretch the legs before that, though. If you got something faster, you could cover that distance you want without the pit stop. Or, if your primary passenger/significant other drinks a bottle of water in the first 20 mins of the flight, then it may be more like 2 pit stops. As for space and load, you can fit three adults easily including yourself, two adults and kids easily, anything more and you're doing your weight and balance more closely. Or at least I do.

Point is, you can get a 180hp Piper or a 172 with decent avionics and lower time engine for under your price range and then you have a reserve fund for maintenance. Or you can get something a bit faster with retractable gear but the same size plane for a little more and also still have a bit of a reserve.

Or I guess you can get a SR20 and have a chute to pull. At least they have low wings.

My plane is a 1976 and does not cost me much in maintenance at all but it was well taken care of. It costs me maybe a few hundred each year on top of the annual which so far has been under $2K each time.

ntil the wing spar AD deal gets sorted out.

Owning a Cherokee I was feeling ill when both the crash and the proposed AD came out. Then I realized that my plane has never been used for training and therefore basically has no 100 hour inspections and therefore I am roughly 4000 hours away from having to worry about that AD as it's written. Point being, even a higher airframe time cherokee that has not been used commercially or for training may not be impacted at all by the AD.

 

[Juliet Hotel]

Point being, even a higher airframe time cherokee that has not been used commercially or for training may not be impacted at all by the AD.

Key word: may. The AD isn't out yet and another PA-28 shed a wing last week. If I already owned something like yours that's low time and was never used for training, I probably wouldn't be losing sleep over it just yet. But if I was in the market, I don't think I'd touch anything in the PA-28 line until the AD is finalized. Why roll those dice if you don't have to?

 

[Rcmutz]

Agreed. The insurance bill on a Comanche might be on the high side for a student unless you stick to the 180hp versions. But then again, probably not much different than a Bo.

As a data point, I had an insurance quote on both. I have 1300 hrs, IFR, only 16 hrs retract. Both had $1M liability with sub limits, and $60K hull. Bonanza was $2300 and the 250 Comanche was $2500.

My Grumman Tiger for the same insurance runs me $700.

 

[Ever Beaumont]

Depends on the plane. If you buy something students tend to learn in (C172, C150, Cherokee etc) it could be $1k/yr or less. If you buy a 250hp retractable gear plane, it'll likely be $3k-$4k/yr until you get a bunch of hours in it and/or an instrument ticket.

$1000/month is not terrible if you're talking about an asset that will generate many times that in revenue per month. A plane is a toy. Kind of apples/oranges comparison there IMO.

Depends on the plane and its MX history. Get something that's been well maintained with nothing deferred and it shouldn't be too bad once your mechanic fixes everything he personally doesn't like that the old mechanic was ok with. Get something that's had lots of pencil whipped maintenance and it could cost quite a bit to get it back up to snuff.

Thank a lot this is very helpful.

 

[Ever Beaumont]

Speed doesn't seem to be much of an issue. No apparent reason to get too much into speed and complexity. I would suggest looking at the following, in no particular order: C-177 Cardinal, C-182 Skylane; PA-28-180 (1973 to 1975), PA-28-181, PA-28-235 (1973-1977), PA-28-236 Dakota, or maybe a Grumman Tiger. All are basically the same class and all have their minor advantages and disadvantages, but likely will do what you want them to do.

Thanks I will look into all of those.

 

[frfly172]

All around the182 is a good airplane, as a starter plane.

 

[Ever Beaumont]

Any benefit from learning on the piper over the Cessna? They are charging $40/hr more for that one.


$55/ hr for the instructor.

 

[simtech]

Any benefit from learning on the piper over the Cessna? They are charging $40/hr more for that one.


$55/ hr for the instructor.

The piper is an Arrow with retractable gear. I would go that route if you think you want a complex plane later, build up that complex time now. Plus its a low wing which we all know low wings look cooler

 

[Juliet Hotel]

Any benefit from learning on the piper over the Cessna? They are charging $40/hr more for that one.

Absolutely none IMO. Assuming your typical 172/Archer/Warrior models, either one will teach you the skills you need adequately and doing your training in either will set you up for an easy transition to the other when you're done.

 

[MountainDude]

I recommend what I have done, a Cessna 182P model with a parachute (either pre-installed, or you install it). You can buy one with low-mid time engine for less than $90K, then add the parachute for $30K.
Here is what you can do with this plane:
- fly 135 KTAS on 12-13 gph
- go up to 18,000 ft if needed
- fly 650 nm direct, while carrying 4 normal adults and baggage
- can fly over water or swamps without worrying too much about where to land in case of engine out. Just open the parachute.
- great views and photography
- very low maintenance
- will likely maintain or gain value in the next 5 years
- very safe and easy to fly

 

[Ever Beaumont]

I recommend what I have done, a Cessna 182P model with a parachute (either pre-installed, or you install it). You can buy one with low-mid time engine for less than $90K, then add the parachute for $30K.
Here is what you can do with this plane:
- fly 135 KTAS on 12-13 gph
- go up to 18,000 ft if needed
- fly 650 nm direct, while carrying 4 normal adults and baggage
- can fly over water or swamps without worrying too much about where to land in case of engine out. Just open the parachute.
- great views and photography
- very low maintenance
- will likely maintain or gain value in the next 5 years
- very safe and easy to fly

Thanks, this was one of my choices! I kind of want a low wing because I like the way they look (is that dumb lol).

How does this plane look? https://www.controller.com/listings/aircraft/for-sale/192149553/2001-cirrus-sr20

Just not sure how I feel about the joystick steering wheel, is that harder to operate?

 

[Deelee]

Just get a B.... damn someone beat me to it...
Get a high-wi... ah someone beat me to it...

In all seriousness, you might consider flying in a few different styles and manufacturers. Maybe see if some of the schools near you can take you up in an Arrow, then a 182, maybe a Cirrus (if there is a school that flies them). You will get a feel for not only how each one flies/lands/stalls, but you will also get to see the interior space, how hard/easy they are to board, etc. The choice is so subjective and personal.

 

[Juliet Hotel]

Thanks, this was one of my choices! I kind of want a low wing because I like the way they look (is that dumb lol).

How does this plane look? https://www.controller.com/listings/aircraft/for-sale/192149553/2001-cirrus-sr20

Just not sure how I feel about the joystick steering wheel, is that harder to operate?

Adjusting from yoke to stick generally takes between 3 and 5 seconds give or take 4 seconds.

As for the plane itself. Its a nice looking older SR20. Of course its going to need the chute done next March. Others can correct me but I believe that's a $10k job. Also why did an engine with a 2000 hour TBO need an overhaul after 1300 hours? Was that due to how the owner was operating it? If so, has it been operated in the same manner since then? If so, you could be looking at another overhaul in another 1000 hours or so. None of which is a deal breaker of course. But you should plan on writing some big checks if you buy it.

 

[Deelee]

Also why did an engine with a 2000 hour TBO need an overhaul after 1300 hours?

This is a great point and it brings up a much bigger point and piece of advice - Review the logs with a fine-toothed comb. If you aren't familiar with what to look for in the engine and airframe logs, hire a company like Savvy Mx to do it for you the first time. I just went through this process and looked at logs from about six or seven different aircraft before making a decision. Airplanes that look great in pictures and have fancy avionics (not that this SR22 does.... another point - ask of those 430s are WAAS or not..) anyway, these planes often have major gotchas hidden in the logs. Maybe it was an engine replaced way before TBO as in this example. Maybe it was a skin repair above the main gear that may have been the result of one too many hard landings (which may have led to other things). If you are thinking about a piper, be prepared to calculate the factored hours that count toward the wing spar SB. Look for regular oil changes and notes on checks for abnormalities.

Long story short, get the logs on first contact with any seller and go through them rigorously.

 

[Kristin]

Any benefit from learning on the piper over the Cessna? They are charging $40/hr more for that one.


$55/ hr for the instructor.

I would go with the PA-28-140. But then, I like stability and it lands like a heavier airplane so better prepares one to transition up to larger aircraft. OPMMV!

 

[Ever Beaumont]

Thanks guys all great advice. Ill probably have to do what you said and hire a company, or two to help me with not only finding the right plane, but also going through the logs and mx. I just don't know enough about avionics, whats good and bad, and what to look for to make an informed decision on my own.

 

[Kristin]

Short story short! Hire someone who has a lot of experience reading logs, maintaining, and flying the plane you want to buy. There is no way an owner and causal pilot, unfamiliar with the type, is going to get the whole story the logbooks have to tell. The more complex the aircraft and the older the design, the more this is true.

 

[Ever Beaumont]

Whats the difference between a Baron b55 and Bonanza?

 

[jsstevens]

Whats the difference between a Baron b55 and Bonanza?

The number of engines. A B55 is a Baron and is twin engine, the lower powered brother of the B58 Baron twin. A Bonanza is a single engine model that spans from the 185 HP E225 powered 1940s and early 1950s 4 seater V tails through a whole bunch of models up through the current 6 seat traditional tail 300+ horsepower IO-550 powered ones.

And there are a few "twin Bonanzas" out there as well.