Thinking about a Bus/RV

[Ted]

I've been working on the generator and motor mount projects when I can. The new motor mounts are complete and in. I haven't started the bus as I haven't been in a position to test drive it yet, so I didn't see much of a point in starting it just to see how it did at idle. But it all turned out well and pretty much as expected, other than the rear motor mounts being the harder ones to get in by a good bit. Still nothing too difficult, and ultimately easier than when I did the poly motor mounts in my 3000GT VR-4. Then again, that was one of the hardest cars to work on, pretty much period.

The generator project I've been making good progress on and that should be coming together. Fabrication is just slow work, but I'm getting quicker at it. Measuring, making sure everything lines up, figuring out how I want things to go (redo this a bunch of times as the process goes on). But it's coming together. The frame that attaches to the generator is complete. I think I'll get the air springs on it and tightened down before putting it in the RV, and then get everything lined up to weld together for the bottom portion to support it all. It should come together nicely.

 

[charheep]

When is the next trip planned?

 

[Ted]

Getting close...



The generator's weight distribution is not 100% equal, as would be expected. The passenger side front airbag was about 1/2" taller than the others for the same pressure when I tested it in this photo (which was a temporary install, not permanent). We'll see how it is under the permanent install when everything is more evenly supported.

Following this picture a lot of sparks occurred and welding wire was consumed. The resultant frame is very solid. Also encouraging, the generator is able to move around on the air springs as expected. I'm going to be really curious to see how this performs. It should essentially eliminate the vibrations being transmitted from the generator to the frame of the bus, and some noise should be reduced as well. However, the nose of the bus where the generator sits is probably about as poor of a setup as could be from an acoustic perspective. It's essentially a resonance chamber, and there's only so much you can attempt to do to fix that, which is really not much. There's a reason why the high-end coaches have generator bays with sound insulation around them as well as these airbags.

We'll just have to see...

 

[Ted]

I got the generator mount finished up and was able to finally start it and take the bus for a test drive (although I actually did those in reverse order).

TL;DR, everything does what I expected it to with few minor things to do/address.

The polyurethane motor mounts were great. The whole bus is overall smoother at idle. Before, vibrations would end up resulting in squeaks and rattles in the bus. Now, you can tell the engine is running, but you can tell it's engine vibrations, and not the rest of the cabinetry getting banged around. I think this has less to do with the poly and more with the mounts being properly sized and no longer touching against the frame, which I think was happening before. But while driving, the overall engine running and riding is smoother. The shifts are smoother, the throttle seems more smooth both in applying throttle and removing it. I'll be interested to see what else I observe as I drive it more, but the initial impressions were very good. I was a bit worried about it being too firm/vibrating too much. That's not the case at all. A 60A durometer would be a bit softer and maybe better for someone who doesn't like things quite as firm as I do, but the 70A is definitely not too hard and doesn't transmit too many vibrations.

The lower thermostats are doing what I expected too. The engine is now running at around 195F on the initial drive. It got above 200 a few times, but it also took about 3 quarts of coolant after the drive, so I think that was just air bubbles getting burped out. We'll see how it does on a longer trip, but my goal was to get it to max coolant flow before the fans turn on, which is what it's now doing.

The new turbo maybe has slightly more lag, but it's also working great. It sounds more turbo-y, and I've got lower EGTs and overall what feels like more power. I'm still getting the boost hiccups, but I was able to adjust the wastegate down some. The manual wastegate adjustment is easier than I thought it would be in place, and so hopefully I can get it to the right pressure.

And lastly, the generator. Vibration is virtually eliminated inside with reduced noise, and about 10dB quieter outside according to my cheap handheld dB meter.

It's nice when things work the way you were intending. Now I need to just get the wastegate sorted out.

 

[Ted]

After a subsequent adjustment and test drive yesterday, one turn backed off of the wastegate managed to make the hiccuping from fuel cutoff almost entirely go away. I'll turn it back another turn or half turn and that should do the rest of it. Otherwise, it really is driving well and I do feel like the horsepower with the new turbo is better.

 

[charheep]

So whats left now?

 

[Ted]

Video on the poly motor mounts for those interested:

 

[Ted]

So whats left now?

Not really anything before the next trip. I always have more tickets of things to work on, but really the bus is in good shape. I had to run to the store to get a few things today and drove the bus following having turned down the wastegate another 2/3 of a turn. It definitely wasn't overboosting anymore and seemed to be within the appropriate range.

The 6-pin trailer connector I use to connect the Land Rover to the bus for lights and keeping the battery topped off going down the road (important because of the remote braking setup it has) had to be completely done. It lives a hard life back there, but I was absolutely astounded at just how bad the wires had gotten. I only did that 1-2 years ago, every connection/wire was bad. Now it's working again.

 

[CJones]

The 6-pin trailer connector I use to connect the Land Rover to the bus for lights and keeping the battery topped off going down the road (important because of the remote braking setup it has) had to be completely done. It lives a hard life back there, but I was absolutely astounded at just how bad the wires had gotten. I only did that 1-2 years ago, every connection/wire was bad. Now it's working again.

I used to use that liquid electrical tape stuff on connections that were 'in the elements' on our Ag equipment. It was a one-and-done kind of thing, because you're not getting things apart once that stuff sets up, but it was able to get into nooks and crannies better than regular tape or crimp connections and if you gobbed it on enough, you could encase the whole backside of a connector in it (again - you're going to be replacing the whole thing if you have to take it apart, but it did it's job until that point).

 

[SoonerAviator]

Since I'm not posting about my mechanic-ing in a new thread, the water pump pulley on my 6.0L decided it didn't want to play anymore, lol. I had heard what I thought was pulley/bearing chirp that developed one day, so I bought two new idler pulleys and the Motorcraft auto-tensioner/Gates belt to solve it. Replacement was pretty straight-forward, but upon start-up . . . chirp chirp chirp. Dammit. Ok, so now I was thinking either water pump or power steering pump (no leaks from either one). Drove it for the next two days and then the chirp got worse until the point where I was a 1/2 mile from work and my power steering and power brakes left the chat (as well as the alternator). I was watching my engine monitor and knew the accessory belt was no longer working. Got to work and called the flatbed wrecker to have it towed back to the house. Upon disassembly I had this:

Apparently Ford had a number of failures of the water pump pulley in this exact manner and updated the design to one with a thicker nose plate sometime in late-'04 or '05. So, I went ahead and did a new water pump/pulley, new upper/lower hoses. While getting the fan shroud back on, I got ham-fisted and ended up snapping off the nipple for the radiator overflow line, which is plastic, and despite my best efforts with thread taps, teflon tape, JB weld, and a brass nipple fitting, I couldn't get it to seal (was spraying a fine mist of coolant). So . . . I ended up getting a new all-welded radiator instead of the plastic-tank Motorcraft one. I bought the biggest radiator they make as I figured "go big or go home". At least if I break the overflow on this one I can weld it back on! I also decided that if I was replacing the radiator I should do several flushes of the system with distilled water and switch to CAT ELC instead of Ford Gold coolant that is known to have the silicates clog up the oil cooler over time. In doing so, I had to remove the starter to access the passenger block drain plug . . . and the starter solenoid terminal broke when removing the cable. SO . . . new 6.4L starter!

Long story short: a simple belt chirp turned into a $1K parts bill for replacing stuff that wasn't originally broken.

 

[Ted]

Long story short: a simple belt chirp turned into a $1K parts bill for replacing stuff that wasn't originally broken.

1) you bought a 6.0, therefore everything is broken
2) relevant content since you switched to Cat ELC. Good choice!

 

[Ted]

Oh, and I can always agree with buying the biggest of whatever you’re buying. Do it once and do it right!

(says the guy having to redo Land Rover wiring…)

 

[SoonerAviator]

1) you bought a 6.0, therefore everything is broken
2) relevant content since you switched to Cat ELC. Good choice!

Even worse, I added a 6.4 starter so I swapped to a component from an engine with an even worse reputation than the 6.0L! The 6.4 starter supposedly spins faster than the factory 6.0L but I can't tell a ton of difference. My engine always fires up within 2 seconds of cranking, so I don't get much opportunity to notice higher rpms. I already had a coolant bypass filter on the truck and the Ford gold coolant was less than 2 years old, but I feel a little better about not having to wonder if the silicates are dropping out of solution.

 

[SoonerAviator]

Oh, and I can always agree with buying the biggest of whatever you’re buying. Do it once and do it right!

(says the guy having to redo Land Rover wiring…)

Factory radiator is a 2-row and 2.4" thick. This one is 3-row and 3" thick. I could have gone with an ebay Chinesium radiator for half the cost, but I can't bring myself to trust that on an engine with enough of a poor reputation.

 

[Ted]

We got home from our Spring Break RV trip yesterday - 11 days and 3500 miles on the bus, putting the total mileage at over 118k. The primary items I was testing on this trip were the motor mounts, the generator air spring isolator upgrade, the new/upgraded turbocharger, and some modifications to the cooling system (lower temp thermostats and Amsoil coolant booster).

Our trip took us to the Grand Canyon, Death Valley, Palm Desert, and Joshua Tree National Park - followed by home. This provided a number of elevation changes, long grades, etc. The temperatures were by no means extreme topping out in the mid 70s, but when you're climbing steep grades with the marginal cooling systems that these busses have that can still be enough to test things.

The turbo proved to be a good upgrade. Induction air temperatures are consistently around 20 degrees cooler. At higher altitudes I may have noticed a bit of extra lag, but not enough to write home about. The turbo performed overall flawlessly. Boost is a bit higher under normal conditions, but induction air temps and EGTs are a bit lower. Towards the top of the boost curve where the wastegate is open the EGTs don't seem to have changed much, but the overall EGT range is consistently lower. The boost elbow coming off of the turbo popped off at one point (fortunately just as I was cresting a long downhill). I can say that engine needs the turbo. Coasted into a truck stop and 20 minutes later I had the elbow back on with a new clamp (in stock at Ted's Mobile Garage) and off we went.

The coolant temperatures definitely did seem to overall operate a bit lower, especially under higher loads. I suspect there were multiple things relating to this. The thermostats allow for full coolant flow starting at a lower temperature, the lower induction air temps reduce the temperature of the pre-heated air off the intercooler before it hits the radiator, the lower EGTs reduces some of the heat load going into the cylinder head, and the Amsoil stuff may have helped a bit as well. Really it all works together. The bus is still cooling limited at higher power settings. I didn't attempt to increase the duty cycle of the fans past the 60-70% PWM that I have it limited to currently. I'm not sure if it would've allowed that higher duty cycle or not. Maybe I will try that at some point.

The polyurethane motor mounts work great. My wife noted as we started driving that she notices the significant reduction in squeaks and rattles while the engine is running. Obviously you can still tell it's there, but it is absolutely smoother running and riding engine wise. The shifts are smoother, especially downshifts.

Perhaps the biggest success of the whole thing was the generator. It's by no means silent, but the reduction in noise and vibration, especially inside, is huge. Several times when it was running (engine off, parked) my wife asked "Is the generator running?" before it was very obvious. Now it's not. The only issue I had is that after being parked, air leaked out - which I think had to do with the general air system leaking air out, not the plumbing I did.

Fuel economy averaged around 8.5 MPG. Not bad for having strong headwinds and a lot of hills on the trip. Best tank was 10 MPG coming home with a quartering tailwind at around 70-75.

What's next? Well, a few thoughts:

- I need to pull the generator and give it a full and proper service. This will likely include replacing the motor mounts inside the generator as well. Add in valve adjustment, a new belt, new coolant hoses, and generally going through and over it. This should make it quieter further, and not have me be as concerned about it failing. I still hear some sort of rattling that doesn't make full sense and I imagine I'll find something when I get it apart

- Add a small air compressor of some sort to keep the generator mounts aired up. Ideally I'd like something that could also pre-air the tanks prior to engine start, but I'll investigate that further

- I want to add water injection to the bus, to help further lower the IATs, especially at high altitude and higher boost, and the EGTs especially at high altitude

- I also want to add a radiator mister

Mostly, the goal with the last two items is to get the cooling load in a spot where I can also run the fans at 100% PWM and get their full cooling, which will help make the bus less cooling limited.

 

[GeorgeC]

The boost elbow coming off of the turbo popped off at one point (fortunately just as I was cresting a long downhill).

Time for a "Turbo Failed at FL050!" video...

 

[MauleSkinner]

- Add a small air compressor of some sort to keep the generator mounts aired up. Ideally I'd like something that could also pre-air the tanks prior to engine start, but I'll investigate that further.

I’ve got a Viair tankless compressor that’s got an RV kit. Connect it to the coach battery and air up the tires pretty easily. I’m sure you could permanently mount one, wire it, and plumb it to all the stuff you need it for.

 

[Ted]

Time for a "Turbo Failed at FL050!" video...

Non-event. Didn't shut down the engine. It was fine. Oh, and it was more like FL070

I’ve got a Viair tankless compressor that’s got an RV kit. Connect it to the coach battery and air up the tires pretty easily. I’m sure you could permanently mount one, wire it, and plumb it to all the stuff you need it for.

Which one do you have and how loud is it? That would be an option. I really don't need a tank. However I've also thought about getting something like a 150 PSI compressor with a small tank that would be more feasible/useful for airing up tires. Since I have 120VAC and 12VDC on the bus, I have options for what I go with.

 

[charheep]

Great trip update. I enjoy reading them.

 

[CJones]

Our trip took us to the Grand Canyon, Death Valley, Palm Desert, and Joshua Tree National Park - followed by home. This provided a number of elevation changes, long grades, etc. The temperatures were by no means extreme topping out in the mid 70s, but when you're climbing steep grades with the marginal cooling systems that these busses have that can still be enough to test things

How did everyone like Joshua Tree? Did you camp out there at all? I've been able to get there a couple of times when in LA for work. I would like to get the family out there on a no-moon night to see the massive array of stars.

 

[Ted]

How did everyone like Joshua Tree? Did you camp out there at all? I've been able to get there a couple of times when in LA for work. I would like to get the family out there on a no-moon night to see the massive array of stars.

We stayed in Palm Desert and just drove there for the day. It looked like our bus was too big anyway, and for us it was a one-day trip. We saw the stars from Death Valley, which was quite good. But my eyes aren't as good as they used to be, and even in certified dark sky regions I don't see the milky way like I remember seeing when I was younger.

We did all like it. The Joshua Tree are cool, and the geology is really neat.

 

[CJones]

We stayed in Palm Desert and just drove there for the day. It looked like our bus was too big anyway, and for us it was a one-day trip. We saw the stars from Death Valley, which was quite good. But my eyes aren't as good as they used to be, and even in certified dark sky regions I don't see the milky way like I remember seeing when I was younger.

We did all like it. The Joshua Tree are cool, and the geology is really neat.

I lucked up and got a TRD Pro 4Runner rental a few years ago, so I ventured off the main road a bit (staying on published trails, obviously) and ended up in the middle of nowhere wondering if I was going to end up spending the night out there. Very unique geology and terrain changes when traversing the whole park.

 

[Ted]

I lucked up and got a TRD Pro 4Runner rental a few years ago, so I ventured off the main road a bit (staying on published trails, obviously) and ended up in the middle of nowhere wondering if I was going to end up spending the night out there. Very unique geology and terrain changes when traversing the whole park.

We're at the point where the Land Rover has me concerned enough that the old engine will explode that we don't venture too far with it now. In fact, we cashed in some points for a free rental car and drove that out since it was going to be a good distance. I need to get that engine swap done.

But yeah, we took note that Joshua Tree would be a good place to come back with the bikes and do some dirt riding.

 

[ElPaso Pilot]

We're at the point where the Land Rover has me concerned enough that the old engine will explode that we don't venture too far with it now. In fact, we cashed in some points for a free rental car and drove that out since it was going to be a good distance. I need to get that engine swap done.

But yeah, we took note that Joshua Tree would be a good place to come back with the bikes and do some dirt riding.

Lot's of good stuff out there.

The park has some significant backcountry that connects with BLM land -- much less restrictions on camping and other stuff.

 

[Ted]

Lot's of good stuff out there.

The park has some significant backcountry that connects with BLM land -- much less restrictions on camping and other stuff.

Signs like that tell me that great things lie ahead.

 

[charheep]

Signs like that tell me that great things lie ahead.

Its almost like an invitation...

 

[ElPaso Pilot]

Its almost like an invitation...

I have passed many of those signs with enthusiasm.

What was the legal phrase? Attractive nuisance?

This photo comes from the blm.gov info site out there. Another nice trail.

https://www.blm.gov/visit/johnson-valley-ohv-area

 

[MauleSkinner]

Which one do you have and how loud is it? That would be an option. I really don't need a tank. However I've also thought about getting something like a 150 PSI compressor with a small tank that would be more feasible/useful for airing up tires. Since I have 120VAC and 12VDC on the bus, I have options for what I go with.

I’ve got the 400P-RVS. They say it’s for Class Cs, but. Can’t remember exactly why I picked it over the 450.

it’s not excessively loud…I also use it to blow out the water lines when I winterize, and the faucets make way more noise when they start spitting air.

I’m bringing the RV home tomorrow to do some work on it. I’ll try to get a recording of the pump and/or readings from the dB app on my phone. Let me know if anything in particular would be more useful to you.

 

[Ted]

Just the general pirep is helpful. I’ll do some further looking.

 

[tmyers]

Ted do you have the air connection at the front of your HR?

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[Ted]

Ted do you have the air connection at the front of your HR?

I do, it’s connected to the main tanks but has some form of check valve in it from what I can tell. I haven’t studied that system/connection well.

 

[tmyers]

I use that connection to air up my tires if they are low. I think that connection is also used by tow trucks to air up a motor home to release the maxi brakes as well. That port should be ok for airing up before departure.

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[Ted]

I use that connection to air up my tires if they are low. I think that connection is also used by tow trucks to air up a motor home to release the maxi brakes as well. That port should be ok for airing up before departure.

I've tried to "pre-air" the system from that port and that's been unsuccessful. I'm pretty sure it has a one-way check valve, and is only getting air from one of the tanks (which are only something like 3-5 gallons, so not much capacity).

At some point I'll look through this further.

 

[tmyers]

I will do some digging as well

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[Ted]

This weekend we went to Dallas for the Indycar race down there (which we enjoyed, the last 60 laps had some really good racing especially). The RV performed well, but the rooftop AC units decided to let me know it was time for replacement. When pulling the bus out to prepare for the trip, I noticed that the cover on the rear AC had fallen off.

Then we left, stopped about half an hour down to get some food for the kids for the highway. While parked, the forward AC cover fell off.

I'd been planning on replacing these anyway. They're both old and very loud. It seems as though RecPro actually has a well designed and quiet rooftop AC/heat pump that I'm going to go with, and will bump up the capacity from 13.5k BTU each to 15k BTU each, which will be a welcome addition. They also seem to have built-in soft start and the reviews are all positive about how quiet they are. We've got a while until our next trip so I figure I'll pull the old ones off, examine how everything is, and get the new ones coming. I also plan on pulling the generator fully and giving that a good service so it will hopefully be good to go for a long time to come.

Before summer travels I also am hoping to put water injection and a radiator mister on, and a few other minor details.

 

[NealRomeoGolf]

This weekend we went to Dallas for the Indycar race down there (which we enjoyed, the last 60 laps had some really good racing especially). The RV performed well, but the rooftop AC units decided to let me know it was time for replacement. When pulling the bus out to prepare for the trip, I noticed that the cover on the rear AC had fallen off.

Then we left, stopped about half an hour down to get some food for the kids for the highway. While parked, the forward AC cover fell off.

I'd been planning on replacing these anyway. They're both old and very loud. It seems as though RecPro actually has a well designed and quiet rooftop AC/heat pump that I'm going to go with, and will bump up the capacity from 13.5k BTU each to 15k BTU each, which will be a welcome addition. They also seem to have built-in soft start and the reviews are all positive about how quiet they are. We've got a while until our next trip so I figure I'll pull the old ones off, examine how everything is, and get the new ones coming. I also plan on pulling the generator fully and giving that a good service so it will hopefully be good to go for a long time to come.

Before summer travels I also am hoping to put water injection and a radiator mister on, and a few other minor details.

Can the old ones be retrofitted to a Lance to help a warm day? Asking for a friend.

 

[Ted]

Can the old ones be retrofitted to a Lance to help a warm day? Asking for a friend.

Anything is possible with a sawzall and enough duct tape, although I’d recommend getting a new cover first. Oh and the drag would probably cost a solid 5 knots.

 

[FormerHangie]

This weekend we went to Dallas for the Indycar race down there (which we enjoyed, the last 60 laps had some really good racing especially). The RV performed well, but the rooftop AC units decided to let me know it was time for replacement. When pulling the bus out to prepare for the trip, I noticed that the cover on the rear AC had fallen off.

Then we left, stopped about half an hour down to get some food for the kids for the highway. While parked, the forward AC cover fell off.

I'd been planning on replacing these anyway. They're both old and very loud. It seems as though RecPro actually has a well designed and quiet rooftop AC/heat pump that I'm going to go with, and will bump up the capacity from 13.5k BTU each to 15k BTU each, which will be a welcome addition. They also seem to have built-in soft start and the reviews are all positive about how quiet they are. We've got a while until our next trip so I figure I'll pull the old ones off, examine how everything is, and get the new ones coming. I also plan on pulling the generator fully and giving that a good service so it will hopefully be good to go for a long time to come.

Before summer travels I also am hoping to put water injection and a radiator mister on, and a few other minor details.

Yeah, that was an interesting race. At first I thought Josef Newgarden was going to run away with it, then it looked like Pato O'Ward was going to run away with it, then a couple of yellow flags and there were five or six guys who had a shot at it. I'm going to the Barber race at the end of the month. One of these days you need to get there and visit the Barber Museum, which has around 950 motorcycles on display and another 600 that are rotated in and out. They also have an excellent collection of early Lotus race cars.

 

[Ted]

I did something a bit different, and did a test drive video. This was before we went on our trip, so it was my very first impression of the modifications. It's gotten more views than I would've expected.

 

[Ted]

I posted the video on the generator upgrade to my channel:

I'm really happy with how that modification turned out. Now I need to pull one of the rooftop HVACs and order the replacements I'm putting in!