There are no stupid questions, only stupid people

labbadabba

labbadabba

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labbadabba
With that in mind...

IFR flight from Fallbrook L18 (between LA and San Diego) to KSMO Santa Monica. L18 is VERY close to restricted airspace so it has this as the westbound departure procedure for Rwy18:

Rwy 18, climb runway heading to 1200, then climbing left turn via heading 160° to join V208-458. Aircraft westbound proceed on course.

I fliled and was cleared onto the SANN9 TEC route on which the first waypoint is OCN VOR. That route L18 -> OCN if flown direct will cross directly over the restricted airspace.

So, my question is, since I was cleared as filed and no mention of the DP was made do I then interpret that to mean I'm cleared over/thru the restricted airspace direct OCN?
 
So, in training, gonna take a guess. Yes. It's ATCs responsibility to take care of SUA on an IFR flight plan. At least, that's the answer I'd give on an oral...
 
Mistake Not... said:
So, in training, gonna take a guess. Yes. It's ATCs responsibility to take care of SUA on an IFR flight plan. At least, that's the answer I'd give on an oral...
Click to expand...

But what if the DP is in-place for obstacle clearance and not SUA? That's a lot of liability on the controller.

For the record, I inquired about the DP after receiving my clearance. He said since I was at an uncontrolled field and below minimum vectoring altitude that I was responsible for my own navigation. With that in mind, I flew the DP just to be safe.

And yes, I am working on my rating.
 
The clearance does NOT contain any segment inside the restricted airspace prior to OCN, so you are not cleared.

The DP is not cleared explicitly unless it is a SID. If a SID crosses restricted airspace and you are cleared on the SID, you're good to go.

You're misreading the DP. Proceed on course applies AFTER joining V208. The eastbound directions say to go to VISTA INT. If you go to V208 first, you won't be near the restricted airspace prior to OCN. You'll be in it after, but that's part of your clearance.

DPs are not mandatory, but it really is a good idea to use them when able.
 
MAKG1 said:
You're misreading the DP. Proceed on course applies AFTER joining V208. The eastbound directions say to go to VISTA INT. If you go to V208 first, you won't be near the restricted airspace prior to OCN. You'll be in it after, but that's part of your clearance.
Click to expand...

So if I'm on a Westbound flight, I would climb to 1,200 then left turn to 160 and intercept the V208. After that I could turn to OCN which is basically what I did.

So, if the DP is not mentioned nor is it mandatory, how is the controller to know where I'm flying prior to joining the first fix on the route? Should I have filed VISTA then SANN9 just to be clear? I was flying /A since the GNS database was expired.
 
It doesn't say which way to join V208. Just join it inbound to OCN. The course is 083/273, pretty close to a 90 deg turn either way. Much better than a 180 deg turn later.

The controller doesn't really know your intentions prior to OCN, but they do know your position, as it is a radar environment. You are under own nav, with no specified route to the first fix. The DP works, and should be used unless there is a reason not to (such as a minimum climb you can't do). You may get a vector when you contact Approach, if you're above MVA at the time.
 
labbadabba said:
With that in mind...

IFR flight from Fallbrook L18 (between LA and San Diego) to KSMO Santa Monica. L18 is VERY close to restricted airspace so it has this as the westbound departure procedure for Rwy18:

Rwy 18, climb runway heading to 1200, then climbing left turn via heading 160° to join V208-458. Aircraft westbound proceed on course.

I fliled and was cleared onto the SANN9 TEC route on which the first waypoint is OCN VOR. That route L18 -> OCN if flown direct will cross directly over the restricted airspace.

So, my question is, since I was cleared as filed and no mention of the DP was made do I then interpret that to mean I'm cleared over/thru the restricted airspace direct OCN?
Click to expand...

Yes. It's not really an interpretation. You are. That doesn't mean you must do it. If you want to fly the ODP you're more than welcome to. If you want fly it for a minute or two and then go direct to OCN you may. Or you can ignore the ODP and just climb straight ahead for a bit until you are comfortable and turn direct OCN. It kind of surprises me that the ODP wasn't included in your clearance. What day of the week and what time was it?
 
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MAKG1 said:
The clearance does NOT contain any segment inside the restricted airspace prior to OCN, so you are not cleared. ... The DP is not cleared explicitly unless it is a SID.
Click to expand...

luvflyin said:
Yes. It's not really an interpretation. You are (cleared) <-my edit. ... It kind of surprises me that the ODP wasn't included in your clearance.
Click to expand...

Interesting that these observations are in direct odds with each other.
 
luvflyin said:
Yup. They are. I'll look further and see what I may be missing. I'm still wondering what time and day it was that you got that clearance.
Click to expand...

ODPs are not normally included in the clearance. That's the difference between an ODP and a SID. SIDs are cleared.

They are discussed in the Instrument Procedures Handbook.

That an instrument clearance allows all possible restricted airspace prior to its start is obviously incorrect. Note that direct L18 -> OCN requires crossing two restricted zones, one of which isn't cleared anywhere. Possibly three depending on altitude.

An instrument clearance generally gives you a specific path you're cleared through. Not an arbitrary path, or separation is impossible.
 
MAKG1 said:
ODPs are not normally included in the clearance. That's the difference between an ODP and a SID. SIDs are cleared.

They are discussed in the Instrument Procedures Handbook.

That an instrument clearance allows all possible restricted airspace prior to its start is obviously incorrect. Note that direct L18 -> OCN requires crossing two restricted zones, one of which isn't cleared anywhere. Possibly three depending on altitude.

An instrument clearance generally gives you a specific path you're cleared through. Not an arbitrary path, or separation is impossible.
Click to expand...

Yeah. The differences between IFR Departure Procedures, now known as Obstacle Departure Procedures, and SIDS are not as different as they once were. Obstacle Departure Procedures are designed to avoid obstacles during climb to the enroute structure. A side benefit to them is, because a pilot flying them as published will follow a predictable path, they can be used to separate airplanes from airplanes as well as airplanes from rocks, if ATC includes the ODP in the clearance. They cannot just assume the pilot will fly it and use it for separation. SIDS were designed to reduce verbiage. Bum Phuq 6 Departure is a lot easier to say than fly this until that and then turn to this and climb to that and then intercept this and............ And they also provide obstacle clearance. Now. Believe it or not when SIDS first came out, they did not have obstacle clearance criteria. It didn't take long before that was causing issues and now they do.

If the pilot in the L18 SANN9 scenario is required to separate himself from R2503 if not assigned the ODP is a good question. I say no, because the controller gave him a clearance that allows him to just go direct OCN if he chooses to. But I'm not betting more than a beer on it. @MAKG1, do you have anything from the AIM or other directives that cover this?
 
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You ask a good question about how the controller knows if you're going to fly the ODP or not. It's a good idea to include it in the remarks and/or verbally confirm it with the controller at the time you get your clearance. In absence of a radar vector or SID, an ODP can be flown at your discretion.

I'm with luvflyin, since the ODP was not specifically assigned in the clearance (and yes, this absolutely can be done at towered and non-towered fields in an IFR clearance...you just can't file it unless it's a graphical ODP), I'd say you're legal to enter the restricted airspace, but it's such an oddball case, it would not be a bad idea to seek clarification from the controller.

I'm was initially surprised that they're not assigning the ODP here, not for terrain, but for separation from the restricted area. Upon further consideration, though, they not only have to keep you out of R-2503B, but 1.5nm away from the edge of it. That's just not possible with a departure out of L18 from rwy 18, you're 1/2nm outside of the restricted area. So, the reality is that ANY IFR departure from L18 is going to require coordination between Socal Tracon and whoever runs R-2503B. In light of that, it probably doesn't matter whether you go direct OCN or not from an airspace perspective, it's getting coordinated no matter what.
 
What is that 1.5 nm requirement based on?
 
Just ask the controller if the R area is hot.
 
Palmpilot said:
What is that 1.5 nm requirement based on?
Click to expand...
3nm lateral separation between IFR aircraft in the terminal area. If R-2503 is being worked by a different controller, then each controller has to keep their IFR 1.5nm from the edge of their sector unless otherwise coordinated. The same is true any time you have adjacent sectors. Otherwise, if each controller ran IFR traffic right up to the edge of their airspace, without coordination, you could have a noise abatement problem (planes make a lot of noise when they collide).
 
Cooter said:
Just ask the controller if the R area is hot.
Click to expand...
Seems logical, but that's really more of a VFR thing. You _normally_ don't have to ask those questions when you're IFR as your clearance permits you to fly through all of that. What makes this an edge case is that fact that the airspace exists during a segment where you don't have firm course guidance. If this was well into enroute, I wouldn't even ask the controller.
 
MAKG1 said:
The clearance does NOT contain any segment inside the restricted airspace prior to OCN, so you are not cleared.
Click to expand...
I could understand that conclusion if he had been instructed to fly the ODP, but he said he wasn't.

That having been said, I wouldn't fly through a restricted area unless I was sure that it was cold.
 
coma24 said:
Seems logical, but that's really more of a VFR thing. You _normally_ don't have to ask those questions when you're IFR as your clearance permits you to fly through all of that. What makes this an edge case is that fact that the airspace exists during a segment where you don't have firm course guidance. If this was well into enroute, I wouldn't even ask the controller.
Click to expand...
I agree, but in this case it could have answered his question.
 
coma24 said:
...What makes this an edge case is that fact that the airspace exists during a segment where you don't have firm course guidance....
Click to expand...
And the controller's reply when he asked confirms that he didn't:

"For the record, I inquired about the DP after receiving my clearance. He said since I was at an uncontrolled field and below minimum vectoring altitude that I was responsible for my own navigation."​
 
coma24 said:
3nm lateral separation between IFR aircraft in the terminal area. If R-2503 is being worked by a different controller, then each controller has to keep their IFR 1.5nm from the edge of their sector unless otherwise coordinated. The same is true any time you have adjacent sectors. Otherwise, if each controller ran IFR traffic right up to the edge of their airspace, without coordination, you could have a noise abatement problem (planes make a lot of noise when they collide).
Click to expand...

1 1/2 miles from boundary is for when radar separation is being used on both sides of the boundary and within 40 miles of the radar antennae. It's 2 1/2 miles when beyond 40 miles from the antennae. This gives the 3 and 5 mile separation requirement respectively. If non radar separation is being used on one side then the radar side must use 3 or 5. The side that doesn't have radar must ensure the airspace to be protected for their aircraft does not over lap the boundary. Thats typically 4 miles either side of the assigned route. All of that is about adjacent ATC sectors. Separation from SUA can be as little as don't touch the boundary if the activity in the SUA is not Aircraft Operations. If the activity in the SUA is Aircraft Operations then it's 3 miles if using radar or airspace to be protected does not overlap.
R2503 is not an ATC sector so the 1 1/2 mile rule does not apply here. Another thing that would be a factor with L18 departures is that the radar coverage there is probably not to the surface so non radar rules must be applied at first until the aircraft is radar identified. There will be a Letter of Agreement between the Using and Controlling agencies spelling everything out. It wouldn't surprise me if there is a little "notch" adjacent to L18 below a certain altitude that the Corps permantely delegates to the Feds.

b. Provide radar separation of 3 miles (FL 600 and
above - 6 miles) from the special use airspace,
ATCAA, or stationary ALTRV peripheral boundary.
c. Clear aircraft on airways or routes whose widths
or protected airspace do not overlap the peripheral
boundary.
d. Exception. Some prohibited/restricted/
warning areas are established for security reasons or
to contain hazardous activities not involving aircraft
operations. Where facility management has
identified these areas as outlined in FAA Order
JO 7210.3, Facility Operation and Administration,
vector aircraft to remain clear of the peripheral
boundary.
 
Luvflyin, I assumed it was < 40nm from the radar, that's why I used the 3nm (divided by 2), but hadn't considered the non-radar possibility. I spoke with a SCT controller this afternoon. He confirmed that all releases from Fallbrook involve coordination with Camp Pendleton. The same is true if someone is shooting the GPS RWY 18 into Fallbrook as the missed approach is basically like a departure from that field.
 
coma24 said:
Luvflyin, I assumed it was < 40nm from the radar, that's why I used the 3nm (divided by 2), but hadn't considered the non-radar possibility. I spoke with a SCT controller this afternoon. He confirmed that all releases from Fallbrook involve coordination with Camp Pendleton. The same is true if someone is shooting the GPS RWY 18 into Fallbrook as the missed approach is basically like a departure from that field.
Click to expand...

SUA doesn't use the <>40 mile rule. That's for adjacent ATC airspace. SUAs are a flat 3 NM from the edge unless an LOA exists or an exemption is made for non aerial activities in the SUA. Then, nonparticipating aircraft are either authorized to transit or in an exemption, allowed to remain clear of the SUA.

Since L18 is already within 3 NM of R2503B, I'd bet anything an LOA exists. Technically public airports should be excluded from R airspace within 3 NM and below 1,500 AGL.
 
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coma24 said:
Luvflyin, I assumed it was < 40nm from the radar, that's why I used the 3nm (divided by 2), but hadn't considered the non-radar possibility. I spoke with a SCT controller this afternoon. He confirmed that all releases from Fallbrook involve coordination with Camp Pendleton. The same is true if someone is shooting the GPS RWY 18 into Fallbrook as the missed approach is basically like a departure from that field.
Click to expand...

That makes sense. They obviously don't have a little chunk of airspace carved out and delegated to SCT so they can run L18 without coordination like I was guessing.
 
labbadabba said:
With that in mind...

IFR flight from Fallbrook L18 (between LA and San Diego) to KSMO Santa Monica. L18 is VERY close to restricted airspace so it has this as the westbound departure procedure for Rwy18:

Rwy 18, climb runway heading to 1200, then climbing left turn via heading 160° to join V208-458. Aircraft westbound proceed on course.

I fliled and was cleared onto the SANN9 TEC route on which the first waypoint is OCN VOR. That route L18 -> OCN if flown direct will cross directly over the restricted airspace.

So, my question is, since I was cleared as filed and no mention of the DP was made do I then interpret that to mean I'm cleared over/thru the restricted airspace direct OCN?
Click to expand...

If you operate out of L18 often enough you know that the portion of R-2503 that lies over the main part of the base is just west of the airport and is to be avoided when VFR. When on an IFR clearance why not operate under the same premise? The OPD takes you clear of that portion of 2503. Perhaps necessary, perhaps not. But, it falls under the "least cost of being wrong" doctrine.

Because L18 is in Class G airspace I would interpret L18 direct OCN is not direct any more than some clearances of this nature where the airport is in Class G airspace have resulted in fatal CFIT because the pilot didn't elect the ODP. (formerly IFR departure procedure). Also, KNFG has a Class D Surface Area, which you most likely would penetrate if you proceeded direct OCN.
 
aterpster said:
...The [ODP] takes you clear of that portion of 2503. Perhaps necessary, perhaps not. But, it falls under the "least cost of being wrong" doctrine....
Click to expand...
Good point!
 
regarding the thread title...

PM2iAfbWZeQJmNnpepbekJcF3ZQ_r7TVkUorxYQtelJgkxqJJn5mv7_fUgby_uNWpa4OBlejKByMOJoDMM9DC04AfH5KWfNM_Yq7ubUSrfNZU4dZj3uYvb-eL9sOaw=s0-d-e1-ft
 
Most Customer Service workers would agree that there ARE stupid people!
 
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