The Worst Airplane You've Ever Flown

[Telemakhos]

The Alarus CH2000 gets my vote . []In fact, it's the only plane I'd never fly again.

Now THAT sounds like a really terrible airplane!
So far, if I were to judge, it's between this and the autogyro.
I'd never fly an autogyro.

 

[Telemakhos]

Oh, and the airspeed indicator was just fine.

By "just fine," do you mean that Vso of that Sundowner was 85 knots?

 

[flyingcheesehead]

Is under your knees worse than over your knees for some reason?

It's the *right there* in the cabin that kinda bugs me. I'm not a big fan of header tanks, but at least there should be a firewall in between and some chance that I'm not going to be taking a bath in fuel during a crash.

Are Shimano quality shifters worse than Ford quality window hand cranks?
(if not, don't adjust trim on a Super Cub)

You don't need to adjust the trim on a Super Cub. And actually, the Super Cubs that I've flown don't use anything resembling a window crank...

Are exposed control mechanisms unacceptable?
(watch the Citabria baggage compartment for rudder cables)

Um... They're under the floor in the one I fly.

And really, it was just that the way it was laid out, things weren't just moving back and forth - They were moving in a way that would EASILY be jammed. It wasn't just the rods that were exposed, it was ALL of the hardware until the rods went into the wings.

Yeah, other planes aren't perfect - For example, I once dropped my phone on the floor of the Super Cub and it went down the rear seat heel-hole and into the back - But this one was just bad.

I wish much of the hardware in aircraft had the durability, quality, and reliability of Shimano shifters. (or campy, etc).

Yeah, I get it, the Wrights were bike guys. But while the shifters themselves seem to be of good quality, they sure go out of adjustment easily and frequently. Sounds like a maintenance headache waiting to happen.

Maybe I'm extra-hard on the Allegro because I think the whole LSA/Sport Pilot thing is good for aviation, but the Allegro takes all of the misconceptions people have about LSA's and makes them come true. I've flown several other LSA's which were really good quality airplanes, and they don't deserve the bad rep that planes like the Allegro give them.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

Ok, here it is, for all you Sundowner Haters.

Level flight. No, I did not dive into level. While I didn't make a habit of flying 76% power, you could if you wanted. No tricks, straight up legit. Temperature corrected the KTAS was 129. It was early December. Sorry I don't have the OAT gauge in the picture.

Oh, and the airspeed indicator was just fine.

Performance specs available online say that the TOP speed is 128 knots, and cruise is 116.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

It has a weird trailing idler link landing gear that makes landings unusually ugly.

Erm... Trailing-link landing gear is generally regarded as a GOOD thing, that makes your landings look good! I know it did when a flew a Mooney...

 

[Troska]

It's the *right there* in the cabin that kinda bugs me. I'm not a big fan of header tanks, but at least there should be a firewall in between and some chance that I'm not going to be taking a bath in fuel during a crash.

I understand that - I was just pointing out that many aircraft have had to make the design compromise that is putting the fuel in the cockpit. I may be wrong, but I thought the Pitts and the Eagle had the _main_ tank above the front (if two) seaters knees.

You don't need to adjust the trim on a Super Cub.

Sure you do. If you set it just right for towing a glider out at 60 mph, 3/4 of a forward turn gives you a perfect speed on final with all but the last notch of flaps.

And actually, the Super Cubs that I've flown don't use anything resembling a window crank...

Weird. I just flew it last weekend, it's down by your left butt cheek - an old window crank. PA-18-180. Not sure of the year.

Um... They're under the floor in the one I fly.

Really? Maybe I'm thinking of the Super Cub again, but I thought they ran down the outside of the cabin through grommets. I'll check when I'm out at the airport next.

Yeah, I get it, the Wrights were bike guys. But while the shifters themselves seem to be of good quality, they sure go out of adjustment easily and frequently. Sounds like a maintenance headache waiting to happen.

Maybe I'm extra-hard on the Allegro because I think the whole LSA/Sport Pilot thing is good for aviation, but the Allegro takes all of the misconceptions people have about LSA's and makes them come true. I've flown several other LSA's which were really good quality airplanes, and they don't deserve the bad rep that planes like the Allegro give them.

It is not about the Wright brothers, more that I read a bit of "it's not an airplane part - it doesn't belong in an airplane" into your post. Now, the Allegro might be a giant POC, I just wanted to poke at the reasoning behind why you thought it was a giant POC. =]

Tim

 

[flyersfan31]

By "just fine," do you mean that Vso of that Sundowner was 85 knots?

?
Looks to me that the white arc contines past 85 after the TAS window all the way down to 52ish.


Yeah, colder then ISA, not by much if I read that indicator correctly. This was about 4 yrs ago. IIRC, GPS supported the numbers on the ASI +/- 1-2kts.

Remember, this was flat out best power, not what I would call cruise. Suffice it to say that it did not max out at 105.

Maybe Gary Mascelli can weigh in on this and run an updated speed test in his 'Downer. I'm on to higher/faster these days.

 

[Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe]

I understand that - I was just pointing out that many aircraft have had to make the design compromise that is putting the fuel in the cockpit. I may be wrong, but I thought the Pitts and the Eagle had the _main_ tank above the front (if two) seaters knees.

Like this?

Main tank is above the front seat knees just behind the panel - the round tank between your feet is the header.

The original J-3 had the tank up there too. And T-18's and a lot of others that don't pop into my mind at the moment.

In the rear cockpit, you can see a bit of the right "floorboard" - the yellow strip. Other than the two strips for your feet, the rest of the floor is open.

You may not want a ride in my POS LSA, but you do NOT want to pass up a ride in THIS IO-540 powered bad boy...

(Disclamer: this is a homebuilt and not a "factory" Pitts)

 

[Ted]

Ummm...

Performance specs available online say that the TOP speed is 128 knots, and cruise is 116.

Did you have speed mods? Are you sure your calculations were correct? 'Cuz I'm sorry, I just don't believe it.

Kent, you've made unbelievable claims about Twin Comanches that you haven't even flown. Andrew actually owned the plane in question and has the picture to show, plus admitted that it was in December at 76% power. I'd trust what he has to say about it.

It really amazes me how many people on here will state that his or her plane of choice is the best - absolutely, positively, you're a heretic if you disagree - and every other plane is complete garbage.

 

[dmccormack]

Yeah, other planes aren't perfect - For example, I once dropped my phone on the floor of the Super Cub and it went down the rear seat heel-hole and into the back - But this one was just bad..

THAT can be a very bad thing!!! In older rag and tube airplanes you want to account for everything before, during, and after a flight.

More than one pilot has come to grief from a misplaced wrench getting under the floorboard. The tool slides back and gets wedged into the elevator mechanism on climb out.

I'm much more careful about what I wear, where stuff is, and that it stays in place in my Chief than I am in a newer airplane.

And really, it was just that the way it was laid out, things weren't just moving back and forth - They were moving in a way that would EASILY be jammed. It wasn't just the rods that were exposed, it was ALL of the hardware until the rods went into the wings.

If you're sloppy or not very organized those exposed controls sure are a danger.

Otherwise, just practice good housekeeping, don't have stuff hanging all over, and make sure you know where everything is and where it should be. It's called discipline, and it carries over nicely to other areas in life.

Yeah, I get it, the Wrights were bike guys. But while the shifters themselves seem to be of good quality, they sure go out of adjustment easily and frequently. Sounds like a maintenance headache waiting to happen.

We used to say "Shimano wears out, Campy wears in." It seemed like Campy stuff needed constant adjustment when first installed, but after a few hundred miles and thousand shifts it was set for a good long time. Shimano was always best right out of the box and went downhill from there.

Of course we're talking high end stuff here: Record or Dura Ace -- not this new Avera-whatever nonsense.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

Kent, you've made unbelievable claims about Twin Comanches that you haven't even flown. Andrew actually owned the plane in question and has the picture to show, plus admitted that it was in December at 76% power. I'd trust what he has to say about it.

WRT Twinkie claims, the only one I've made with certainty is the one I've flown - I think I've always qualified the others with "should be" or whatever.

Obviously, a picture is worth a thousand pilots' opinions, so I'm inclined to believe Andrew - But that doesn't mean it's easy. I don't think there are any restrictions on what the manufacturers' marketing departments can claim their top speed is, so presumably they'd come up with those numbers under the most favorable conditions possible. Beating them, then, should be almost impossible.

However, I've also flown an old Seneca with 12,000 hours on it that got exactly book performance numbers (which surprised the hell out of me). So, that does show that the "new airplane, test pilot" fudge factor does not always apply.

Maybe Andrew got his extra knot from waxing it up real good.

It really amazes me how many people on here will state that his or her plane of choice is the best - absolutely, positively, you're a heretic if you disagree - and every other plane is complete garbage.

I never said the 'downer is complete garbage - And I would have no basis to, never flown one. I have heard that they have a nice, big, comfy cabin though. Like any airplane, there are tradeoffs that have to be made in the design. That's why we pick airplanes based on the mission - Your Aztec being much better for your mission (hauling a ton of dogs all over the place) than my coveted Twin Comanche would be, and the Twink being better for my mission (getting me places with two fans on as little fuel as possible) than the Aztruck.

IMHO, there are really VERY few aircraft types that are truly bad - It's just that each one is designed for a particular mission with particular goals in mind. OTOH, even the best-designed aircraft type has examples that are crap. It seems that in this thread we've gone right from the start into blaming the type for the shortcomings of one example.

You're right though, there's a lot of my-way-or-the-highway discussions here. I think people need to realize that their own mission is not going to be everyone else's mission, and keep in mind that each aircraft type has its strengths and weaknesses.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

If you're sloppy or not very organized those exposed controls sure are a danger.

Otherwise, just practice good housekeeping, don't have stuff hanging all over, and make sure you know where everything is and where it should be. It's called discipline, and it carries over nicely to other areas in life.

I don't think it's unreasonable to have BAGS in the BAGGAGE compartment, though, and that's where the problem really lies.

You may not want a ride in my POS LSA, but you do NOT want to pass up a ride in THIS IO-540 powered bad boy...

I wouldn't... But I've heard that I won't fit.

I do fit in a J-3, but I do not fit in a C150 - Knees in the yoke.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

Sure you do. If you set it just right for towing a glider out at 60 mph, 3/4 of a forward turn gives you a perfect speed on final with all but the last notch of flaps.

Yeah, I was just kidding, hence the smiley. The pitch forces are very light anyway, so it's not as essential as it is on many planes.

Weird. I just flew it last weekend, it's down by your left butt cheek - an old window crank. PA-18-180. Not sure of the year.

Now I'm wondering if I'm thinking of the wrong airplane. Where's the trim on the J-3?

Really? Maybe I'm thinking of the Super Cub again, but I thought they ran down the outside of the cabin through grommets. I'll check when I'm out at the airport next.

Wish I'd been looking last weekend, but I don't think they're exposed any more by the time you get to the baggage compartment.

Not that the baggage compartment in a Citabria is worth a crap anyway, being way back there with no door... I just strap my suitcase into the rear seat.

It is not about the Wright brothers, more that I read a bit of "it's not an airplane part - it doesn't belong in an airplane" into your post.

Well, I'd take 1950's Ford parts over 2000's Shimano parts any day.

Now, the Allegro might be a giant POC, I just wanted to poke at the reasoning behind why you thought it was a giant POC. =]

Maybe I'm making too many excuses for why it's a giant POC - But it's still a giant POC.

 

[Fast n' Furious]

This thread got me to do a little thinking and logbook checking. To date I've flown 40 distinctly different types and a bunch more if you count variations on a theme like the Beech Aero Club family (Sport, Sundowner, Sierra). I don't think I've flown anything absolutely henious although I've been fortunate enough to not get whacked by some terribly maintained POSs or is that POI? Anyway, despite being a happy Mooney owner my fav ride of all time is the A36 and bringing up the rear is the Apache. Not a very attractive airplane but at least the single engine performance was charachter building. Yeesh......

 

[dmccormack]

I don't think it's unreasonable to have BAGS in the BAGGAGE compartment, though, and that's where the problem really lies..

There is a 40 lb weight limit baggage compartment directly behind the seat back in my Chief. That's where any loose stuff goes.

Anything else is velcro'ed, zip tied, or in my pockets.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

I was thinking about the Sundowner speed issue while making dinner tonight, and it occurred to me that it may well be that Andrew's numbers are actually *better* than Beech's (in terms of quality, as well as speed. ).

We do have GPS these days to verify things, after all.

Plus, I'm guessing Andrew was alone on that flight, so a bit less induced drag, so "better than book" would be possible.

Andrew, my apologies. And if your Slowdowner got 129 KTAS, what'd you ever buy the 182 for?

 

[Dan Thomas]

One guys says: Watch the Citabria baggage compartment for rudder cables...

The other guy says: Um... They're under the floor in the one I fly.

And I say: Citabria rudder cables run down the inside walls of the cabin, exposed, and then under two pulleys immediately aft and below the rear seat, right where things like gloves or hats or jackets or loose seatbelt ends can get pinched between the cable and pulley and restrict movement of the rudder. We have two of these machines and have to keep reminding students and instructors to keep everything out of those things and keep the rear belts done up when solo. We spin these things all the time and anything that stops rudder travel could prevent a spin recovery, to say nothing of a restricted rudder in a taildragger during landing. Could get ugly. I have no idea why none of the several manufacturers of these airplanes over the years have never done anything about the hazard.

Anything loose in those airplanes can cause trouble. We have found flashlight batteries, pens, and other stuff rolling around in the belly. Once found an AA cell in the elevator horn cavity, just waiting for a little jiggle to get it trapped in the horn and stop elevator movement, and we once had an aluminum gusset from a belly fabric former come off and end up wedged in there where it DID stop elevator movement and the guys were fortunate to be able to get back and land OK.

Dan

 

[weilke]

The worst aircraft still beats the best shoes.

 

[flyersfan31]

I was thinking about the Sundowner speed issue while making dinner tonight, and it occurred to me that it may well be that Andrew's numbers are actually *better* than Beech's (in terms of quality, as well as speed. ).

We do have GPS these days to verify things, after all.

Plus, I'm guessing Andrew was alone on that flight, so a bit less induced drag, so "better than book" would be possible.

Andrew, my apologies. And if your Slowdowner got 129 KTAS, what'd you ever buy the 182 for?

Hey, no worries. I've never claimed it's a speedwagon, I've only chosen to refute claims that it can not, will not, do, say, 125 kts without being dropped from a B52. Patently untrue. The photos were taken in response to a thread several years ago on AOPA where someone with thousands of flight hours, but very few in a Sundowner, weighed in on the issue and more or less told me I was full of spit. THAT tends to irritate me. I know you and Ed, and I know where you guys are coming from, so I wasn't irritated by you guys.

I don't really care enough about any given plane to get upset. It's just an airplane for crying out loud. It does make me laugh when people make assertions like "It's really really slow" or "it's very hard to land." Come on, seriously? Is 120 kts vs 115kts REALLY that big a difference on the average distance a 4 seat trainer flies??? No.

 

[EdFred]

No, I was saying your plane sucked.

You might be the stealth bomber, but I'm all 8 engines of a B-52, baby!!!

 

[Dan Thomas]

Ok, here it is, for all you Sundowner Haters.

Level flight. No, I did not dive into level. While I didn't make a habit of flying 76% power, you could if you wanted. No tricks, straight up legit. Temperature corrected the KTAS was 129. It was early December. Sorry I don't have the OAT gauge in the picture.

Oh, and the airspeed indicator was just fine.

The picture doesn't include the tach reading. Not saying that this is the case here, but I've seen some pilots cruise at ridiculously low power settings and then wonder why the airplane is such a dog. I think many of them get the habit from their flight training, where the school encourages low setting to save on fuel. If one looks at the POH cruise charts and see just how high the tach has to be, especially at altitude, to get 75% or whatever, they can usually get book values. The Cessna 150 was a dog unless you cruised at 2500 or better. Shoot, it's a dog anyway, but 2500 or 2600 won't hurt an engine that's certified for 2750 continuous. At 5000 feet you might need to get nearly redline RPM to get that 75%.

Some airplanes are slower than others, just because. We used to have a 172M that was slower than our other M models and we never did figure out why. A brand-new engine and prop made no difference. The rigging was all as per SM. NDH. It was just that way.

And sometimes an unauthorized prop can end up on an airplane. A pitch lower than the TCDS specifies can cost cruise speed. A tach that easily runs past redline in cruise is a hint that all is not well.

Dan

 

[flyersfan31]

The picture doesn't include the tach reading. Not saying that this is the case here, but I've seen some pilots cruise at ridiculously low power settings and then wonder why the airplane is such a dog. I think many of them get the habit from their flight training, where the school encourages low setting to save on fuel. If one looks at the POH cruise charts and see just how high the tach has to be, especially at altitude, to get 75% or whatever, they can usually get book values. The Cessna 150 was a dog unless you cruised at 2500 or better. Shoot, it's a dog anyway, but 2500 or 2600 won't hurt an engine that's certified for 2750 continuous. At 5000 feet you might need to get nearly redline RPM to get that 75%.

Some airplanes are slower than others, just because. We used to have a 172M that was slower than our other M models and we never did figure out why. A brand-new engine and prop made no difference. The rigging was all as per SM. NDH. It was just that way.

And sometimes an unauthorized prop can end up on an airplane. A pitch lower than the TCDS specifies can cost cruise speed. A tach that easily runs past redline in cruise is a hint that all is not well.

Dan

Check the JPI in the lower left corner

 

[flyersfan31]

No, I was saying your plane sucked.

You might be the stealth bomber, but I'm all 8 engines of a B-52, baby!!!