The Value of Logged time

Jaybird180

Jaybird180

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Jaybird180
For a low time Private Pilot, which is more valuable to log: PIC or Training Time?


This question came from another thread where a newly minted PP is planning to fly XC with a CFI in the right seat.

Personally, I'd prefer not to have the training time (I know that you log both PIC and training), because I keep a mental note of the gap between training hours and PIC hours, and I want that gap to continue to grow so that training becomes a smaller percentage of my total hours.
 
The private pilot can log PIC time while receiving training. If you haven't been doing that you're cheating yourself.

As to your desire to have as little training as possible -- you might want to rethink that.
 
Jaybird180 said:
For a low time Private Pilot, which is more valuable to log: PIC or Training Time?


This question came from another thread where a newly minted PP is planning to fly XC with a CFI in the right seat.

Personally, I'd prefer not to have the training time (I know that you log both PIC and training), because I keep a mental note of the gap between training hours and PIC hours, and I want that gap to continue to grow so that training becomes a smaller percentage of my total hours.
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I think it depends on your goals. If you're looking for that job, then PIC that's not dual is probably more valuable, if not, who cares? If the training is valuable, accept it.

Ryan
 
I take advantage of any training I can at any time. The more I learn, the better I will be when in the cockpit as the only pilot in the plane. Of course, I am not heading for a job as a Pilot.;)

Cheers
 
Just fly. The more you fly, the better pilot you will be. Never pass up an opportunity for free instruction.

-John
 
Jaybird180 said:
For a low time Private Pilot, which is more valuable to log: PIC or Training Time?
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Valuable in the sense of someone else (insurance, prospective employer) looking at your hours, or valuable to you in becoming a better pilot?
 
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I don't think that having training hours logged hurts a pilot at all, that it is actually the opposite, it can be viewed as a person who wants to learn more.
 
I'm flying a 17+ hour trip next week from Oregon to Kentucky. PP, working on Instrument requirements. My dad (who will be with me) is my II. Should I log it as PIC XC, which I need. Or dual instruction? Which I also need.

I figure PIC XC, but would like to hear other opinions.

(Hope this is staying on-topic enough)
 
jesse said:
The private pilot can log PIC time while receiving training. If you haven't been doing that you're cheating yourself.

As to your desire to have as little training as possible -- you might want to rethink that.
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Sorry, Jesse. You missed the mark. On both accounts

PBristolJr said:
I'm flying a 17+ hour trip next week from Oregon to Kentucky. PP, working on Instrument requirements. My dad (who will be with me) is my II. Should I log it as PIC XC, which I need. Or dual instruction? Which I also need.

I figure PIC XC, but would like to hear other opinions.

(Hope this is staying on-topic enough)
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That is the topic and a perfect example
 
PBristolJr said:
I'm flying a 17+ hour trip next week from Oregon to Kentucky. PP, working on Instrument requirements. My dad (who will be with me) is my II. Should I log it as PIC XC, which I need. Or dual instruction? Which I also need.

I figure PIC XC, but would like to hear other opinions.

(Hope this is staying on-topic enough)
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As a certificated pilot, you can log both. The only exception I know of is the solo cross country requirement for commercial and in that case there cannot be anyone else in the plane, even a non-certificated passenger.

John
 
Jaybird180 said:
Sorry, Jesse. You missed the mark. On both accounts
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Ok?

Jaybird180 said:
That is the topic and a perfect example
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Actually it looks more like you're missing the mark. You can log both PIC XC and Dual received at the same time. It will be valid time towards the instrument rating. If his father is providing any sort of training which he would very likely be then it must be logged dual received. There is no disadvantage to doing so.

Even if he didn't log the father for some reason, he can't log Solo since there is another passenger in the airplane.

Recurrent training in your logbook is a good thing, not a bad thing, and trying to avoid training sounds like a less than great idea. You do not receive training from an instructor without logging it as so.
 
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As to your desire to have as little training as possible -- you might want to rethink that.
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I don't think the original poster suggested that he doesn't want training. He isn't discussing getting the training, just how he will log it. His question regarded the percentage of time in his logbook showing instruction vs. total time or PIC time.

The original poster is seeking instruction, not avoiding it.

I don't keep track of instruction received. When I undergo training in a simulator, for example, I might have 20 hours of simulator time, which I log, but I don't keep track of the totals at the bottom of the page, and don't track the time as a cumulative Dual Received. It's just on the page as a record of what was done, but doesn't show up in any total columns. (Simulator time isn't flight time).

When receiving instruction in an airplane, the same thing. The only thing I put in the totals column is required instruction. If I did a check-out in an airplane, for example, I would show it on the line as instruction received, but I don't bother tracking it beyond that. Whether you do or not really doesn't matter.

When you speak of what's most valuable, you'll have to define what your goals are in logging that time. If you intend to stay a private pilot, it's all the same; your logbook simply becomes a record of your training and proficiency, and your adventures.

If you're logging toward flying for a living one day, PIC is what you need. If you already have your private and you're rated in the airplane, then log it as PIC when you're able to do so (sole manipulator of the controls, etc). You can log dual received and PIC at the same time, and should. What you keep track of in your totals at the bottom of the page is up to you.
 
Training time has value in that you're learning, and learning new things and improving your skills and knowledge are usually good. OTOH, there is great value in going out there without anyone there with you to help/advise -- builds confidence and experience at making decisions and executing plans, and avoids the instructor becoming a crutch (viz, JFK Jr, who had like 350 hours total of which like 300 were dual, and was unable to make the right decision in the crunch alone). So, get training when appropriate, and be the only pilot aboard when you can. It will all work out in the end.
 
Ron Levy said:
Training time has value in that you're learning, and learning new things and improving your skills and knowledge are usually good. OTOH, there is great value in going out there without anyone there with you to help/advise -- builds confidence and experience at making decisions and executing plans, and avoids the instructor becoming a crutch (viz, JFK Jr, who had like 350 hours total of which like 300 were dual, and was unable to make the right decision in the crunch alone). So, get training when appropriate, and be the only pilot aboard when you can. It will all work out in the end.
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Well worded Ron. If you don't want to log dual received don't have the instructor. If you do have the instructor and they provide training it needs to be logged. Just understand that you generally log PIC at the same time as dual received and for the purposes of obtaining additional certificates or ratings there is no downside other then the long solo commercial xc.
 
RyanShort1 said:
I think it depends on your goals. If you're looking for that job, then PIC that's not dual is probably more valuable, if not, who cares? If the training is valuable, accept it.

Ryan
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No company asks for PIC non dual time. They want TT and PIC time. If you can log PIC log it absolutely. It would be stupid not to.
 
jesse said:
Ok?



Even if he didn't log the father for some reason, he can't log Solo since there is another passenger in the airplane.

.
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So you can not log solo even when you have a non-pilot passenger on board, perhaps a grandma?


Also, what helped me a lot in my profficiency and confidence as pic after getting my instrument rating was taking a cfi on board to fly random cross countries in all sorts of weather. I just told him to back off and don't say anything unless I was really doing things the wrong way, getting dangerous, or he had constructive advice. Sometimes its a pain in the ass fighting for the radios, controls or avionics with an overeager cfi. I noticed they get bored and tend to want to be in control all the freaking time even when you are fully rated and just hired them as a backup. As they say, sometimes there's too much cock in the cockpit.
 
Inverted said:
No company asks for PIC non dual time. They want TT and PIC time. If you can log PIC log it absolutely. It would be stupid not to.
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And the insurance company will ask for training hours in the last year also.

Logging PIC + dual + XC is win, win, win.
 
I mistakenly believed that solo meant the only person flying the plane and no other pic or possible pilot. Time to do some log book corrections then.aaarrghh :mad::mad::mad::mad:
 
My logbook has a single column for Solo and PIC. At this juncture, I don't need to differentiate the two, unless I go on a LOOOONG XC while solo, then I may use it for comm later in my career.
 
Jaybird180 said:
My logbook has a single column for Solo and PIC. At this juncture, I don't need to differentiate the two, unless I go on a LOOOONG XC while solo, then I may use it for comm later in my career.
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The 300-miler isn't the only solo requirement for CP-Airplane. There's also "5 hours in night VFR conditions with 10 takeoffs and 10 landings (with each landing involving a flight in the traffic pattern) at an airport with an operating control tower."
 
cirrusmx said:
I mistakenly believed that solo meant the only person flying the plane and no other pic or possible pilot. Time to do some log book corrections then.aaarrghh :mad::mad::mad::mad:
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I log solo time now when I am the only one on board to keep track of my dual crew time. But its one of those things that doesn't really matter. I wouldn't really tear the logbook up to correct that time. I say that because solo time isn't important in the sense of currency.
 
Ron Levy said:
The 300-miler isn't the only solo requirement for CP-Airplane. There's also "5 hours in night VFR conditions with 10 takeoffs and 10 landings (with each landing involving a flight in the traffic pattern) at an airport with an operating control tower."
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Looks like I need to add something to the notes sections for my solo night flying.
 
Jaybird180 said:
Looks like I need to add something to the notes sections for my solo night flying.
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My logbook doesn't have a column for night, so for night currency I put an asterisk next to the applicable numbers. Lets me look back quickly to see when the last night t/o and ldgs were.
 
cirrusmx said:
I mistakenly believed that solo meant the only person flying the plane and no other pic or possible pilot. Time to do some log book corrections then.aaarrghh :mad::mad::mad::mad:
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Wait, oh crap, glad I read this thread. There is a "solo" column in my logbook, isn't there? I thought that was for training only? Well then, I've only flown solo twice - once this month (which I need to log), and once last year for three night landings to stay current (which I'm sure I have already logged and probably incorrectly). Otherwise, I've had pax every flight.
 
Ron Levy said:
You mean night landings, or night time? I've seen lots of logbooks which didn't have a separate column for night landings, but never one without a night time column.
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I added one (drew one in) on the left hand side, next to the landings column. I like to see my night landings numbers.
 
kimberlyanne546 said:
I added one (drew one in) on the left hand side, next to the landings column. I like to see my night landings numbers.
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In my landings column there is a slash where I record day in the upper and night in the lower and I total them separately.

Now that I think about it, I don't recall my CFI ever discussing how to use the logbook with me...just kinda continued the trend that was established (but of course I read every entry before shaking hands and leaving).
 
Example from 2011:

7645572630_6dc2b1c111_c.jpg
 
Ron Levy said:
You mean night landings, or night time? I've seen lots of logbooks which didn't have a separate column for night landings, but never one without a night time column.
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Yes...night t/o and landings. They don't always come out the same. My book does have a column for night time.
 
what do you guys/gals write on the remarks section? I only note the approaches used and the minimums and also pucker factor stuff if i flew through. Other than these two, I don't note anything. Most of my flights are uneventual, VMC (few clouds maybe a high overcast)and visual approaches most of the times when flying ifr and/or IMC (you can fly ifr in vmc). Thus, my remark sections are empty expect for the winter months. what do people usually remark?
 
cirrusmx said:
what do you guys/gals write on the remarks section? I only note the approaches used and the minimums and also pucker factor stuff if i flew through. Other than these two, I don't note anything. Most of my flights are uneventual, VMC (few clouds maybe a high overcast)and visual approaches most of the times when flying ifr and/or IMC (you can fly ifr in vmc). Thus, my remark sections are empty expect for the winter months. what do people usually remark?
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If I show you my logbook (above was during training) you would laugh at me. It is like a journal / diary now. One pilot saw it (I rarely have it with me) and he said "wow."
 
The comments section mostly is my diary. I like to look back and say, "Oh, yeah! I remember that flight! That's when I took my daughter out to meet her cousin for breakfast." If the flight was for some spefic reason, or there were some special circumstances (like the wind picked up unexpectedly and was gusting 22 across the rwy) I'll mark that down.
 
Matthew said:
The comments section mostly is my diary. I like to look back and say, "Oh, yeah! I remember that flight! That's when I took my daughter out to meet her cousin for breakfast." If the flight was for some spefic reason, or there were some special circumstances (like the wind picked up unexpectedly and was gusting 22 across the rwy) I'll mark that down.
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Now that I know I'm not the only one, I looked up an old log book page from last year (with Teller and Mari on a single page no less and me bragging about Teller working my radio and getting Bravo clearance):

7645918128_327b7816a2_c.jpg
 
I guess "cloud dodging" and "bravo clearance" were new to me back then. Kind of cute to read that and realize how those types of things wouldn't even make it into my logbook anymore.
 
kimberlyanne546 said:
Now that I know I'm not the only one, I looked up an old log book page from last year (with Teller and Mari on a single page no less and me bragging about Teller working my radio and getting Bravo clearance):

7645918128_327b7816a2_c.jpg
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Looks like 3 flights with no landings? Must have been interesting flights.

I actually see the "other" pilot made the landings but first look it was odd to see zero landings. ;)

I better check my logbook. :D

Cheers
 
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X3 Skier said:
Looks like 3 flights with no landings? Must have been interesting flights.

I better check my logbook. :D

Cheers
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Yes, it is a diary.

First one: a POA member was in town, from the East Coast. We had planned the flight for months. We got there, got in the plane, but the fog came in before we can take off. That is a "flight" to me even though it isn't.

Second one: I was a passenger but that was my longest XC to date and felt it was worth logging because I practiced using my sectional the entire time. Several hours of reading a map, to me, is good training. I'm sure he had GPS or whatever but I had just passed my checkride and couldn't afford any XC's of that length myself so I was having fun.

Third one: passenger, but I did get to fly for a bit. Kind of tough in the back of the plane with no altimeter, no rudder pedals, no anything really. Just a stick. And with tandem seats all you see is the sky and the back of the pilot's head LOL.

And I remember all of this because of my entries. Like someone else said, I want to open the book years from now and go "oh yeah I remember that flight."
 
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PBristolJr said:
I'm flying a 17+ hour trip next week from Oregon to Kentucky. PP, working on Instrument requirements. My dad (who will be with me) is my II. Should I log it as PIC XC, which I need. Or dual instruction? Which I also need.

I figure PIC XC, but would like to hear other opinions.

(Hope this is staying on-topic enough)
Click to expand...

No reason you can't log it as both, you know, assuming you're the sole manipulator AND your dad is providing instruction.
 
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