I'd blame the electorate too. But I'd still blame the troops for helping the politicians take away my liberty. If all of the AF/ANG pilots would stand up and say, "we refuse to enforce you're stupid TFR's that do nothing for security but only infringe on liberty- get someone else to do it". Maybe the pols would have to listen. I have the highest respect for the military- until they turn on their own.
The two F-15's today...
- Thread starter 150man
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maddog52
Line Up and Wait
These F-15 pilots are not "turning on their own". They are enforcing a legal TFR. Whether you or them or anybody else agrees with the TFR is irrelevant. Checking you out because you aren't smart enough to check for that TFR can hardly be said to be "taking away your liberty".
Suggesting that serving military officers refuse a lawful order in order to make a point demonstrates a complete lack of understanding of the role of the military in this country and democracies in general. I would feel very worried if our military officers felt it was ok to make their own personal policy instead of following policy of the elected civilian authority. That's how you get military juntas, dictatorships, and war crimes.
The problem is, there was a time when we didn't have to worry about checking out TFRs, because there were none, and no president was ever attacked because of that. They were created by an unelected bureaucracy. I doubt, without some form of civil disobedience, TFRs will never be repealed. There's just not enough of us pilots among the population. Non pilots don't care because TFRs do not affect them.
I certainly hope that our military will refuse to follow the policy of elected authority if such policy severly intrudes upon our freedom. TFRs probably do not rise to such a level, but our freedom is taken away in little pieces, not all at once.
I certainly hope that our military will refuse to follow the policy of elected authority if such policy severly intrudes upon our freedom. TFRs probably do not rise to such a level, but our freedom is taken away in little pieces, not all at once.
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Hey, by the way, how many of us call for a briefing before each and every flight, even if just to fly around the patch? Are we "stupid" if we don't? There's probably more "stupid" pilots out there than "smart" ones if that's the case.
RyanShort1
Final Approach
Not to confuse the issue, or imply that it would be right, but there are some "lawful orders" that are really immoral or un-Constitutional when it gets right down to it. Remember that the Nuremberg defence "I was just obeying orders" was ultimately and rightly shot down.
Ryan
kkoran
Pattern Altitude
Why do you think it would "be great"? The damage it would do to GA's reputation among the general population and Congress, or the potential prison sentences and/or fines? If you don't think the feds would want to make an example of pilots who intentionally violate a Presidential TFR, you're pretty naive.What would be great is if we had about 10-20 GA pilots all band together and intentionally violate a presidential TFR at the same time.
kkoran
Pattern Altitude
You appaarently don't understand what constitutes a lawful order.
kkoran
Pattern Altitude
I don't know if there are more of them, but there sure are a lot of stupid pilots.
With that attitude, schools in Alabama would still be segregated. It would be great because there just something about sticking to the man that's fun.
EvilEagle
Pattern Altitude
So let me get this straight. You don't check the NOTAMs (required by the FAA) and I'm supposed to disobey an order and get thrown in jail, end my flying career and any possible future jobs just because you don't think you should have to check the NOTAMs? Seriously?
What exactly do you think the military is for? We follow the orders of the people that are ELECTED. (unless it's an unlawful order - enforcing the laws of our country is never going to fly as "unlawful") If you don't like the laws, talk to your Congressman, but don't B*%ch at us when you get intercepted. We don't like it, but there are a lot of orders we don't like. That's part of the job - we have to do it and STFU. If there were orders that we'd choose to disobey, you can bet your bottom dollar that TFRs would be near the bottom of the list.
I said that I hope the military refuses to obey an order that severly intrudes on our freedom, and then doubted whether TFRs do that. Sorry if I got you bent out of shape. OTOH, there is a law that prevents the military from being used to enforce civil law. It's called the posse commitatus act I believe. And don't tell me that going out on an intercept, and breaking the sound barrier ain't fun. Hey, those who ordered that operation surely knew that those fighters weren't going to get there in time to protect the president. So why did they do it? Was it a "show" of power? Who knows.
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EvilEagle
Pattern Altitude
I'm not bent out of shape, just wanted to be clear that pilots following orders doesn't go in the "they should refuse to do it" column.
I am no-kidding here to tell you that going out on an intercept is no fun. We break the sound barrier on almost every flight. It's not a big deal. It's much more fun to go out on a training mission that is a tactical challenge.
kkoran
Pattern Altitude
Going to guns.I believe you. Thanks for the conversation.
Oh, by the way, does a Cessna 150 put off enough heat for a missile to lock on to?
EvilEagle
Pattern Altitude
Depends on the missile. (and the throttle setting) But, for typical F-15 loadouts? Yes!I believe you. Thanks for the conversation.
Oh, by the way, does a Cessna 150 put off enough heat for a missile to lock on to?
