The state of training

thats also recommended in gliders, especially wood ones mike. a crack in the spar will change the natural frequency of the wing, so if you start to vibrate one and the other doesnt oscillate with it, you know you have a problem.
 
Don't know how it all compares with students years ago, though I assume one needed much more basic knowledge to keep the steeds flying and to repair them in the field back then? After years of amazement at the lack of basic knowledge coming from Comm. rated pilots going for their CFIs [So, tell me about constant speed props. Normal type answer: Well, they're really just automatic transmissions, like in a car.], and other complete ignorance of powerplants, I worked into my CFI syllabus such unheard of items as, let's go out and open the cowling on that Warrior and take a look. In fifteen or twenty minutes you can point out exhaust, oil cooler, push rod tubes, baffles, etc. The women students [and I had a bunch] were almost always fascinated and asked more questions and requested more time spent on it. Some of the students were bored and yawning. I overheard a group of CFI students talking once, one was holding forth a big complaint that his instructor, me, had wasted at least an hour of his time and money going over stuff like that which wasn't in the PTS. He was pretty disgusted [news to me]. At least one of my other students piped up that he'd found it very interesting and informative and really appreciated it, no one else had ever gone over those basic things.

Eventually, I had a collection of parts...a cylinder, some valves, push rods, a piston rod, cam, etc., and I could lay them all out on a table and show how it all worked. Took about fifteen minutes at the most. Did the same thing with instrument/CFII students. Went to a instrument repair shop I used for my own airplane and gradually talked the owner into giving me some un-rebuildable gyros, AIs, mag compass, VSI, all those things which I disassembled and would use as ground school props. Again, some people were fascinated and some were resentful but none of them had ever seen these things except in line drawings in texts.

I made up my own syllabus for these ratings. When I'd sit down with a new student to go over what we'd be covering for his instrument or multi or whatever, I'd give them a copy of the syllabus and explain that it did not match a PTS but did include everything in the PTS. There would be more than that but I guaranteed there would turn out to be only a small amount more time involved, probably no more time as I was pretty good at just working it into my teaching method.

Of course, there were still people who complained to me or others later on. One guy kept after me about half way thru his CFI training with "I have a job flying jumpers with an uncle who will only hire me if I get the CFI, all I need is the $#@%^$ CFI and I'll be working, just GET ME THRU THE BASIC crap and let me go on 'cuz I don't need to know how to teach or all this other garbage...." I explained that the FAA didn't really care a bit what he was gonna do with the ticket once he finished it up, the standards were the same no matter. Oh, well.
 
What I see all too often (exaggerated, but only slightly):

You can't fly XC without a GPS.
The initial hading on the XC will be 41.6 degrees.
Enter the downwind at midfield on a 45 (2000' of 7000' runway doesn't matter)
Abeam the numbers, reduce the power to 1673rpm. (Pattern length, altitude and xwind have no bearing on it)
PP-ASEL will let you fly, but you aren't a pilot until you are instrument rated.

IOW, get the numbers right, you don't need to know the reasons or modifiers.
 
Ken Ibold said:
I hate to disparage fellow aviators, but I find it shocking that in a conversation last night a 200-hour recently check-rided instrument-rated pilot and aircraft owner asked, very seriously, "What's a wing spar?"

Have I just become jaded, or does it seem like that's really something someone ought to know?

I'm not sure why it's important for a pilot to know anything about wing spars. They do need to understand that the skin supports some of the load so that they take problems with the skin seriously during a pre-flight, but they should never see a spar, can't inspect it, and can't troubleshoot a problem with it in the air. The aviation world is full of odd words like spar, rivnut, intercostal, stringer, web, and flange. All of these are important terms in aircraft structures, but pilots don't really need to bother much with them.

I think it's really important to know about thinks like magnetos and turbos because you can actually diagnose a problem in the air and understand when it's time to land right now and when you can push on a bit. That's not really the case with the wing spar.

By the way, how many Cessna 152 pilots know that each wing is held on by two 1/2" bolts? In fact, the wing hinges around the two bolts, so that it rotates freely if the strut is detached. It amuses me somewhat to know that, but since I can't preflight those bolts or fix them in flight, it doesn't add to my safety as a pilot. I only know because I did the certification work for a modification to the main spar bolts in a 152 aerobat.

Chris
 
cwyckham said:
By the way, how many Cessna 152 pilots know that each wing is held on by two 1/2" bolts?
Heh. I didn't know that until I helped someone take the wing off a C-152. It wasn't a very inspiring sight. On the other hand, you don't hear too many stories about the wings falling off C-152s. :dunno:
 
Everskyward said:
Heh. I didn't know that until I helped someone take the wing off a C-152. It wasn't a very inspiring sight. On the other hand, you don't hear too many stories about the wings falling off C-152s. :dunno:

Most of of the stresses, both neg and pos, are held by the wing struts, which receive those stresses from the wing, aileron and flap skins as transferred to the wing ribs and then wing spars. Generally, to increase gross weight a few hundred pounds above standard loads on a small, strutted high wing aircraft, all that is required is beefing up of the wing strut attachments.

The Cessnas are indeed quite strong for their weight, and if the wings get ripped off by G overloads, it's usually from the strut's wing attach point outwards.
 
cwyckham said:
By the way, how many Cessna 152 pilots know that each wing is held on by two 1/2" bolts? In fact, the wing hinges around the two bolts, so that it rotates freely if the strut is detached. It amuses me somewhat to know that, but since I can't preflight those bolts or fix them in flight, it doesn't add to my safety as a pilot. I only know because I did the certification work for a modification to the main spar bolts in a 152 aerobat.

Chris

Four, as you mentioned, the strut bolts as well. The most stressed one is the strut to wing bolt.
 
Ken Ibold said:
I hate to disparage fellow aviators, but I find it shocking that in a conversation last night a 200-hour recently check-rided instrument-rated pilot and aircraft owner asked, very seriously, "What's a wing spar?"

Have I just become jaded, or does it seem like that's really something someone ought to know?

I was shocked when I first read this, but then I wondered... What good does it do for a private pilot to know what a wing spar is? :dunno: You can't see it, can't touch it, can't troubleshoot it in flight, can't do anything about it if there was a problem... It just seems somewhat useless to me. (The knowledge, not the spar. ;))

Commercial/ATP? Yeah, hopefully those guys know more. But your average pilot should learn a lot of other things first. Like how to not run out of fuel and how to keep the plane upright in the clouds long enough to make a 180. How many wing spar problems do you find in the Nall report? Of those how many would knowing what a wing spar was have any affect whatsoever? I'll bet ya a powerball ticket that number is 0.
 
Ron Levy said:
Given the high-wing/low-wing reference, I'll bet Nick is mixing a wing strut with a wing spar.

T'weren't me, but I suspect you're right (he kinda admitted it already).

The only thing I know about a wing spar, besides just being told that it supports the wing, is that there was an AD on it on a lot of planes last year (or the year before).

So, even at that point, I'd say "I dunno what the heck a wingspar is, but here, Mr. A&P, can you make my plane airworthy again?"

I suspect that if a wingspar fails in flight, I'm screwed. I've never seen anything either above or below the wing that supports it on my Cherokee, so I suspect it is inside the wing, and therefore something I cannot preflight. I have no need to know (IMHO).

Now - ask me about how fuel gets from the wing to the engine, or how the vacuum system works, and I'm right there! Also - I can tell you about how the propeller spins, and magic dust falls on the empennage and causes it to float also, but that's about it.
 
Knowing exactly what a wing spar is and what it does, is not the issue, the lack of information and training that leaves a student not knowing what a wing spar is and what its functions are is more than an issue, I find it unfathhomable and unforgiveable that a person should hold a pilot certificate greater than student and not know what a wing spar is. More than that, it makes me wonder how much other information they are deficeint in.

It only further supports my longtime concerns about the abysmal quality of flight training received by pilots today. Lets consider some of these, Pilots that cant do short field TO&Ldgs, that cant navigate anywhere without a GPS, pilots that dont know how to use trim and dont know how it functions if they do use it, pilots that cant figure a simple time and distance problem or fuel comsumption problem, I may not be the worlds best CFI, but I do know when people are deficient in their training and feel that not only is it a symptom of a more deep seated problem in aviation, it is downright dangerous not only to those deficient but also to those that ply the skies with them.
 
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One thing that has struck me as a newly minted pilot while I was going through my flight training was the lack of out-of-school reading/studying most of my fellow students were doing.

I mean, other then what I had to do for work of course, I lived, breathed, slept airplanes and flying. Of course there is still a TON of things I do not know but even now I am reading "Flight Discipline" and "They Called it Pilot Error".

I subscribe to every major US aviation magazine (and am considering a good looking UK one).

I read these boards and visit aviation related sites for most of my online pastime.

Becoming a pilot is easy, becoming an aviator is hard, and I *WANT* to be an aviator. Yet most of my students did not, they wanted the quickest, easiest path to a plane-driving ticket (the funny thing is that by studying on your own actually speeds up training and saves you money, most of the time not doing so did the opposite).
 
Back during my private and instrument training (sadly no longer) my flight school had a mechanic on staff. There were three different ones over time, actually. I spent time in the hangar. "What'cha doin? Why is the alternator there instead of over there? Can I help with that cowling? Where do you fill the strut?" etc. I learned much about what was under the skin. It's the only way to really know what is going on with the physical structure, and powerplant, of the engine. My wife spent even more time out there. Her rationale is that, as a woman, she would be assumed to not understand the mechanicals as well as a man, and she wanted to understand them BETTER than most. Both of us are pretty comfortable with systems, what they do, what they look like, and how they work.

I may not be able to pre-flight a wing spar, but I surely should know what it is and what it does. And the Cessna Pilot Center materials are pretty weak on the structure of a skyhawk.

Jim G
 
flyingcheesehead said:
I was shocked when I first read this, but then I wondered... What good does it do for a private pilot to know what a wing spar is? :dunno: You can't see it, can't touch it, can't troubleshoot it in flight, can't do anything about it if there was a problem... It just seems somewhat useless to me. (The knowledge, not the spar. ;))

You may have a point for rental pilots. But an owner does need to know about these things. At annual time, an owner may be presented with a list of things that "should" be done but may be defered, or "potential" issues which would take more time/money to investigate deeper. Without knowing the purpose of the system/part you can't make an intellegent decision. There's a big difference between defering maintenance on a wing walk stiffener and a wing spar.
 
Henning said:
Four, as you mentioned, the strut bolts as well. The most stressed one is the strut to wing bolt.

JOOC, why would the bolt at the top of the strut be stressed more than the one at the bottom?
 
Ken Ibold said:
I hate to disparage fellow aviators, but I find it shocking that in a conversation last night a 200-hour recently check-rided instrument-rated pilot and aircraft owner asked, very seriously, "What's a wing spar?"

Have I just become jaded, or does it seem like that's really something someone ought to know?

Here is a fair question: What does he need to know about a wing spar?

Does he follow the FARs? Does he pay attention to the POH procedurees for his plane? When I was young I built hot rods that put detroit horsepower-per-cubic -inch offerings to shame. Today I'm afraid to pull the "Northstar" decorative cover off the intake manifold of my Buick Lucerne without talking to my mechanic. Heck, I don't even plan to ever change my own (synthetic) oil. Have I become a bad driver?

Someone later said we can be pilot snobs. I do believe that most of us here knew what a wing spar was befor we ever climbed in a plane. But...if we don't how a plane is assembled does it really matter? I'm sure a lots of us don't know what "heterodyne" is (OK, I do) but we know not to "step" on someone's com.
 
SkyHog said:
T'weren't me, but I suspect you're right (he kinda admitted it already).

The only thing I know about a wing spar, besides just being told that it supports the wing, is that there was an AD on it on a lot of planes last year (or the year before).

So, even at that point, I'd say "I dunno what the heck a wingspar is, but here, Mr. A&P, can you make my plane airworthy again?"

I suspect that if a wingspar fails in flight, I'm screwed. I've never seen anything either above or below the wing that supports it on my Cherokee, so I suspect it is inside the wing, and therefore something I cannot preflight. I have no need to know (IMHO).

Now - ask me about how fuel gets from the wing to the engine, or how the vacuum system works, and I'm right there! Also - I can tell you about how the propeller spins, and magic dust falls on the empennage and causes it to float also, but that's about it.

Your guess as to what the wing spar is correct. AFAIK, on a Cherokee at least, it's an aluminum box like an I-beam that runs inside each wing to the opposite wing right though the fuselage. On my Cherokee, it's under the back seat.

You can preflight as I said. Bounce the wing tips and look and listen for bad things happening. If the wing spar had a crack I gotta believe you'd see crinkled skin on the wing.
 
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