The right time to pull?

[Mtns2Skies]

I'm a little confused now because many of you have said that pulling an Aircraft chute (Cirrus Aircraft) should always be done in a time of doubt. My CFI told me that the ONLY time you would THINK about using it is if your over water, a city or maybe a forest because once you pull the chute your at the mercy of the wind with no control what-so-ever thus the risk of power lines or any other not great obstacle. He said "Planes have wings for a reason." I was wondering what the POH said or what you guys think.

 

[dmccormack]

I'm a little confused now because many of you have said that pulling an Aircraft chute (Cirrus Aircraft) should always be done in a time of doubt. My CFI told me that the ONLY time you would THINK about using it is if your over water, a city or maybe a forest because once you pull the chute your at the mercy of the wind with no control what-so-ever thus the risk of power lines or any other not great obstacle. He said "Planes have wings for a reason." I was wondering what the POH said or what you guys think.

Unless you're flying a BRS-equipped airplane, it's a bit of a moot point, but...

At the point youre contemplating pulling the handle, my guess is you really won't care what the POH says.

Maybe this requires a checklist entry:

1. "There's no way out and I am about to die...." PULL HANDLE

 

[Mtns2Skies]

Haha, whats BRS?

 

[Trapper John]

I've never flown a Cirrus, but I understand there is a speed limitation on chute deployment - don't know what that is, though.

It's true once the chute is deployed, you're just along for the ride, but if you're in a situation where you really think deploying the chute is necessary, you're pretty much just along for the ride at that point, too, aren't you?


Trapper John

 

[Graueradler]

My CFI told me that the ONLY time you would THINK about using it is if your over water, a city or maybe a forest

Didn't someone get killed by pulling the chute over water?? The landing gear collapse plays a role in reducing the deceleration Gs. They don't get a chance to do that when landing in water.

 

[jmaynard]

Haha, whats BRS?

Ballistic Recovery System...the airframe parachute.

I've never flown a Cirrus, but I understand there is a speed limitation on chute deployment - don't know what that is, though.

I seem to remember hearing that it's 130 KIAS. I don't know for sure, though. Next time I'm at the airport with one of the guys who flies the one based here, I'll ask.

I discussed the decision to pull the handle with the rep from BRS when I was considering one for my airplane. Basically, he said that every pilot needs to determine for himself what circumstances merit deployment, but in general it's those circumstances where an emergency landing is unlikely to be successful.

 

[Let'sgoflying!]

Pull early, Pull often!
http://www.cirruspilots.org/blogs/p.../10/02/introducing-pull-early-pull-often.aspx

good general info and a listing of pulls
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ballistic_Recovery_Systems

 

[Skip Miller]

It's true once the chute is deployed, you're just along for the ride,

Maybe not strictly true. IIRC (and there is reason for doubting that!) in one case the pilot used the engine to maneuver the plane while the parachute was deployed to select a better landing spot. It might have been the Cirrus that hit the Hudson in Yonkers a while back...

-Skip

 

[Mtns2Skies]

Maybe not strictly true. IIRC (and there is reason for doubting that!) in one case the pilot used the engine to maneuver the plane while the parachute was deployed to select a better landing spot. It might have been the Cirrus that hit the Hudson in Yonkers a while back...

-Skip

Im not so sure about that, When you pull the parachute lever/switch in a Cirrus doesn't it shut down all systems?

 

[Trapper John]

Maybe not strictly true. IIRC (and there is reason for doubting that!) in one case the pilot used the engine to maneuver the plane while the parachute was deployed to select a better landing spot. It might have been the Cirrus that hit the Hudson in Yonkers a while back...

-Skip

Very interesting, probably would be the world's most expensive powered parachute at that point! :wink2:


Trapper John

 

[Trapper John]

Im not so sure about that, When you pull the parachute lever/switch in a Cirrus doesn't it shut down all systems?

I believe the handle is just a mechanical means of activating the charge that deploys the chute.


Trapper John

 

[Skip Miller]

Very interesting, probably would be the world's most expensive powered parachute at that point! :wink2:


Trapper John

Correct. I just did a brief check of the Times website and the crash in Yonkers was a Piper Arrow, not a Cirrus so I was wrong on that ... but I still remember an article about some cirrus crash where the pilot pulled the powered-parachute routine. Perhaps the one where the aileron fell off in flight testing?

-Skip

 

[bbchien]

It needs be the last thing on any list, because if not, your certificate needs restricted to "Valid for flight only in BRS equipped aircraft".

 

[Henning]

I'm a little confused now because many of you have said that pulling an Aircraft chute (Cirrus Aircraft) should always be done in a time of doubt. My CFI told me that the ONLY time you would THINK about using it is if your over water, a city or maybe a forest because once you pull the chute your at the mercy of the wind with no control what-so-ever thus the risk of power lines or any other not great obstacle. He said "Planes have wings for a reason." I was wondering what the POH said or what you guys think.

Unless I was in an uncontrolled descent I wouldn't pull over water. The system was designed to have the gear collapsing absorb a good bit of the final impact. The guy who pulled and went into the Hudson suffered severe back injuries from the impact. As long as I had control, I'd ditch the old fashioned way. Where I really like the idea of the chute is night/IMC over rugged terrain SE.

 

[Henning]

I've never flown a Cirrus, but I understand there is a speed limitation on chute deployment - don't know what that is, though.

It's true once the chute is deployed, you're just along for the ride, but if you're in a situation where you really think deploying the chute is necessary, you're pretty much just along for the ride at that point, too, aren't you?


Trapper John

Unless I have lost all ways to control the aircraft, nope. Fly the f-er to it's resting place. Never ever give up. As I said above, night/IMC and/or over even day VFR over rugged terrain or structural failure where the vertical descent under canopy will provide the best odds for a survivable final deceleration. The descent doesn't matter, it's the stop that's a *****.... The BRS is a very nice option to have available in the small percentage of situations where it provides the best option for minimum rate of deceleration at the end. I flew a pipeline route that it would have been very comforting to have because there were several long stretches where I had no illusions about survivability. If the engine failed, I was dying. Big rocks arent conducive to easy deceleration.

 

[Henning]

It needs be the last thing on any list, because if not, your certificate needs restricted to "Valid for flight only in BRS equipped aircraft".

I don't disagree with that one bit. I view the BRS as the civilian version of an ejection seat. Don't ever want to use it, will probably get hurt if I do, but in those few rare moments when you have no other survivable options, you get a "Thank you God" moment and another chance.

 

[Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe]

I'm a little confused now because many of you have said that pulling an Aircraft chute (Cirrus Aircraft) should always be done in a time of doubt. My CFI told me that the ONLY time you would THINK about using it is if your over water, a city or maybe a forest because once you pull the chute your at the mercy of the wind with no control what-so-ever thus the risk of power lines or any other not great obstacle. He said "Planes have wings for a reason." I was wondering what the POH said or what you guys think.

In each situation, which gives you better odds of survival?

Engine failure over farmland? Don't pull.

Wing falls off? Pull.

Engine failure over a city? You pick. With the 'chute you impact area will be smaller, but you don't get to pick where it is. With wings, you get to pick the point of impact and can at least aim for a low traffic street. Some people have sucessfully merged with traffic on a freeway.

Over water? Dunno which gives you better odds.

Airframe ice - can't maintain control or no chance of flying out if it? Pull.

Unable to keep the shiny side up in actual instruments? Pull.

When the no-pull options are likely to result in death? Pull.

 

[Mtns2Skies]

Thanks Capt. Thats the answer I was looking for.

 

[docmirror]

Based on the # of Cirrus incidents I would say if you have a thought about pulling the chute, you should do it. Too many times in the recent past Cirri have gone down with the chute stowed.....

This may change, but I suspect we get into a situation where it becomes 'wait, wait I can save it, just a sec, hold on, wait here we go, everything is fi......'.

 

[Mtns2Skies]

Now how about this... Do you think it saves more people than it hurts?

 

[TangoWhiskey]

Unable to keep the shiny side up in actual instruments? Pull.

I agree, to an extent: the pilot better have exhausted all other options to keep the shiny side up... autopilot, etc. If "OMG, I am disoriented" leads to "pull the T-handle" as the automatic next step, then one shouldn't be flying a Cirrus or any other aircraft IFR, in my opinion.

 

[Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe]

I agree, to an extent: the pilot better have exhausted all other options to keep the shiny side up... autopilot, etc. If "OMG, I am disoriented" leads to "pull the T-handle" as the automatic next step, then one shouldn't be flying a Cirrus or any other aircraft IFR, in my opinion.

Agree. There are a lot of people who don't belong in actual instrument conditions in any aircraft with or without a BRS.

But statistics suggest that at least some of them try on a regular basis.

 

[Everskyward]

If "OMG, I am disoriented" leads to "pull the T-handle" as the automatic next step, then one shouldn't be flying a Cirrus or any other aircraft IFR, in my opinion.

That's easy to say but harder to put into practice. Are pilots going to need to go through a battery of psychological tests before being allowed to fly an airplane? Maybe CFIs can get some inking of a student's personality, however I think it's much harder to judge "prone to panic" than it is something like lack of skill, especially since students are probably much less prone to panic with the CFI in the airplane.

 

[sba55]

That's easy to say but harder to put into practice. Are pilots going to need to go through a battery of psychological tests before being allowed to fly an airplane? Maybe CFIs can get some inking of a student's personality, however I think it's much harder to judge "prone to panic" than it is something like lack of skill, especially since students are probably much less prone to panic with the CFI in the airplane.

True. I think we could get closer to assessing a student's ability to stay calm than we are right now. I like the idea of popping the door right after rotation...

 

[Skip Miller]

Engine failure over a city? You pick. With the 'chute you impact area will be smaller, but you don't get to pick where it is. With wings, you get to pick the point of impact and can at least aim for a low traffic street. Some people have sucessfully merged with traffic on a freeway.

In 1965, a GA plane landed on the upper deck of the George Washington Bridge. I can find no other details other than the bridge and pilot were unharmed.

-Skip

 

[Everskyward]

True. I think we could get closer to assessing a student's ability to stay calm than we are right now. I like the idea of popping the door right after rotation...

I think a lot of CFIs do that already, and I think it's useful. However, you can't practice for every possible situation. I think that sometimes people react differently when they are alone. I think psychologically, there is difference when there is no safety net (CFI) and some people will be more prone to panic. It's hard to judge that since you cannot observe them when they are alone except from outside the airplane and maybe listening on the radio.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

I'm a little confused now because many of you have said that pulling an Aircraft chute (Cirrus Aircraft) should always be done in a time of doubt. My CFI told me that the ONLY time you would THINK about using it is if your over water, a city or maybe a forest because once you pull the chute your at the mercy of the wind with no control what-so-ever thus the risk of power lines or any other not great obstacle. He said "Planes have wings for a reason." I was wondering what the POH said or what you guys think.

The main reasons to pull a chute:

1) Structural failure
2) Control failure
3) Pilot incapacitation.

It's not about what you're over, it's about what's going on. Other than the above three situations, you have a flyable airplane and you should fly it. If you're in a situation over a city or forest where you have no other options, you have probably already had a failure in judgement by allowing yourself to get into that situation.

Over water, especially, I would NOT pull the chute. One Cirrus went into the Potomac under chute and the pilot received a serious back injury because there was no deceleration from the landing gear collapsing. Ditching in water has a very high probability of success with little or no injury. Pulling the chute over water, not so.

Haha, whats BRS?

BRS = Ballistic Recovery Systems, the company that makes the airplane parachutes.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

It's true once the chute is deployed, you're just along for the ride, but if you're in a situation where you really think deploying the chute is necessary, you're pretty much just along for the ride at that point, too, aren't you?

Hopefully people don't pull the chute until they're in that situation. Unfortunately, it seems that there are too many Cirrus drivers that make poor decisions with the chute in mind. Then, too many of them don't pull the chute when their poor decisions catch up with them!

Didn't someone get killed by pulling the chute over water?? The landing gear collapse plays a role in reducing the deceleration Gs. They don't get a chance to do that when landing in water.

Not killed, but severe back injury.

Im not so sure about that, When you pull the parachute lever/switch in a Cirrus doesn't it shut down all systems?

Nope. It just releases the chute. The pilot gets to shut things down. If I did have to pull a chute in a Cirrus I'd certainly be using the powered-parachute trick to try and pick my landing spot.

Based on the # of Cirrus incidents I would say if you have a thought about pulling the chute, you should do it. Too many times in the recent past Cirri have gone down with the chute stowed...

Yep.

I agree, to an extent: the pilot better have exhausted all other options to keep the shiny side up... autopilot, etc. If "OMG, I am disoriented" leads to "pull the T-handle" as the automatic next step, then one shouldn't be flying a Cirrus or any other aircraft IFR, in my opinion.

True. But, Cirrus has added another safety valve, the blue "LVL" button. Disorientation should lead to pushing that button, unless one is in the midst of a bunch of terrain in IMC or at night.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

Now how about this... Do you think it saves more people than it hurts?

The chute only saves people.

Only the pilots hurt people.

A pilot with a BRS chute should ask themselves at the beginning of every single flight, "would I make this flight if I didn't have the chute?" and if the answer is "no" then they should stay on the ground regardless of the chute's presence. If all pilots in BRS-equipped planes would do that, the chute would clearly have a positive effect on safety. That's why I say that the chute saves people, it's only the pilot's poor decisions that kill people.

 

[bbchien]

...Cirrus has added another safety valve, the blue "LVL" button. Disorientation should lead to pushing that button, unless one is in the midst of a bunch of terrain in IMC or at night.

Yes, lest we forget. This pilot was unable to even deal with the "easy" button (Perspective version).

 

[Henning]

True. I think we could get closer to assessing a student's ability to stay calm than we are right now. I like the idea of popping the door right after rotation...

Stomp a rudder while you're teaching them departure stalls, that'll give you a clue. Popping the door should be a mandatory as often as it happens so they see that it's a non issue.

 

[PittsDriver]

I've often wondered what would happen if you dead sticked a Cirrus down in to an emergency landing site and in the last few seconds, say in the round out, you didn't like what you were about to hit - and then you pulled the 'chute. Would it act like a drogue and slow you down while still moving straight ahead? Or would it swing you around in some unpredictable manner and flop you on the ground harder than if you flew it into something hard?

 

[TangoWhiskey]

I've often wondered what would happen if you dead sticked a Cirrus down in to an emergency landing site and in the last few seconds, say in the round out, you didn't like what you were about to hit - and then you pulled the 'chute. Would it act like a drogue and slow you down while still moving straight ahead? Or would it swing you around in some unpredictable manner and flop you on the ground harder than if you flew it into something hard?

I'm thinking it wouldn't help much, as it takes a little time for the main chute to inflate; there is a "ring" that moves down the lines to provide for gentle and even inflation and less stress on the lines--that ring needs some time to move down the lines and allow the canopy to fully inflate.

Watch the video and you'll see what I mean:

The FAQ at BRS' site says the following about "how low can the parachute work" (emphasis mine):

The altitude required is a function of speed more than height. FAA certified tests have shown that full parachute inflation could occur as low as 260-290 feet above the ground.

P.S.--Does it look like they restart the engine at :25 into the video?