The return of Steingar

Last time I porpoised was in a friend's Mooney.

I was on the way to getting the stick all the way back, when it touched down sooner than I expected. I think I was used to the relatively light pull required in my Sky Arrow and just didn't pull hard enough.

Bounced twice, then got the hell out of dodge. With far more left yaw/roll than I expected with full power application.

Still, those little rubber pucks are quite devoid of damping ability.

In short, I can see how it happens - I wouldn't beat myself up too much.

Let us do it!
 
ebetancourt said:
Welcome back. Please make sure that the instructor you select really understands Mooneys. If he or she doesn't start out discussing airspeed control and speeds below 80 on final, run away.
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Even 80 (if knots) is too fast, you want to be 65-70kts depending on load and gust factor.

FastEddieB said:
Last time I porpoised was in a friend's Mooney.

I was on the way to getting the stick all the way back, when it touched down sooner than I expected. I think I was used to the relatively light pull required in my Sky Arrow and just didn't pull hard enough.

Bounced twice, then got the hell out of dodge.
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Good man! The Mooney gives you two bounces for free, the third costs you a prop and engine teardown. EVERY TIME.
 
ebetancourt said:
Welcome back. Please make sure that the instructor you select really understands Mooneys. If he or she doesn't start out discussing airspeed control and speeds below 80 on final, run away. My Mooney checkout instructor wanted 90 on final, idiot. 1.3Vs works well. I flew with a Bonanza pilot once, and when I turned final I pulled power to idle (252); he couldn't believe it, said a Bonanza wouldn't make the runway from where I was with no power.
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What I really need to understand at an intuitive level is energy. It isn't just about airspeed, that's what I thought and it bit me hard. The incident occurred because I was landing a fairly short strip (I thought 2600 feet, though it was actually about 800 feet longer (it has been lengthened since my last visit). Coming over the tress at the arrival end I pulled the power going about 80. 70 over the numbers and BAM!. I hit so hard that the energy was transmitted up the wheel into the fork (destroying one of the biscuits) into the Johnson bar and not the holder. It destroyed the holder, I now have a new one from Mooney.

If someone is coming in fast at a low power setting it might be just fine. The airplane will slow down quickly with gear and flaps deployed and no power. If you come in slow you probably want some power, you need energy to arrest the sink and flair. That's where I blew it big time.

Like I said, I knew nothing and know nothing. Actually, that's not entirely true. Pitch and power, just like a trainer. Its just that complex aircraft are a little more finicky about the combination, and you really have to know what you're doing as you approach the edge of the envelope. I didn't and don't.
 
steingar said:
What I really need to understand at an intuitive level is energy.
...

Pitch and power, just like a trainer. Its just that complex aircraft are a little more finicky about the combination, and you really have to know what you're doing as you approach the edge of the envelope.
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Yeah, well, IMO screw that "energy" bunk. I never thought about it in those terms. Look at this way, you have a big engine that can either smooth the airflow over the tail feathers or chop it all up depending on whether the prop is pulling or pushing the air respectively. Crack the throttle just enough to smooth the airflow, essentially making the plane into a glider, and don't "pull the power" all the way off until you've touched down.

Welcome back, Buckeye.

dtuuri
 
dtuuri said:
Yeah, well, IMO screw that "energy" bunk. I never thought about it in those terms. Look at this way, you have a big engine that can either smooth the airflow over the tail feathers or chop it all up depending on whether the prop is pulling or pushing the air respectively. Crack the throttle just enough to smooth the airflow, essentially making the plane into a glider, and don't "pull the power" all the way off until you've touched down.

Welcome back, Buckeye.

dtuuri
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Thanks fellow Buckeye. Ain't nowhere in Ohio that's far at Mooney speeds, so perhaps I should come visit. My Mooney hasn't a big engine, but just a lowly old Lycoming O360. Same engine as found in numerous trainers. If it was just a speed thing my airplane wouldn't have needed all those expensive repairs. But you're right, a well-timed crack of the throttle would have helped matters a great deal. You just don't know what you don't know until you know you don't know it.
 
What I'm suggesting isn't a "well timed" crack of the throttle, but a sort of a "flight idle" setting for piston propeller airplanes. Sure, when the plane drops you need throttle to catch it, but I'm addressing the unpredictability of the elevator riding in turbulent flow. Planes with constant speed props seem most sensitive to me. Try it out, I think you'll like it. Just don't over-do it or you'll float too much.

I moved away from Mansfield, btw. Now up in the snow belt. Thinking about Basic Med lately and doing some instructing again. Not quite there yet, though.

dtuuri
 
dtuuri said:
What I'm suggesting isn't a "well timed" crack of the throttle, but a sort of a "flight idle" setting for piston propeller airplanes. Sure, when the plane drops you need throttle to catch it, but I'm addressing the unpredictability of the elevator riding in turbulent flow. Planes with constant speed props seem most sensitive to me. Try it out, I think you'll like it. Just don't over-do it or you'll float too much.
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Don't have a good intuitive feel for what you're addressing, but reference what I said above. Perhaps you'll ride along some day and demonstrate (at altitude of course).

dtuuri said:
I moved away from Mansfield, btw. Now up in the snow belt. Thinking about Basic Med lately and doing some instructing again. Not quite there yet, though.

dtuuri
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Madison might be up on the Lake, but it still isn't far at Mooney Speeds.
 
steingar said:
[...] Coming over the tress at the arrival end I pulled the power going about 80. 70 over the numbers and BAM!. [...]
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As you know, we fly a M20E, pretty much the same plane as yours, only with the 200 hp engine.
80 mph on final and full flap is IMHO the perfect setup. We trim for 80 mph, hands off, and maintain this airspeed all the way down to the round out. In this configuration, we very comfortably make the 1,400 ft exit at our airport.
Slower, and the sink rate becomes pretty high and not much energy is left for a nice flare. Faster, and the plane floats excessively.
 
Welcome back Steingar! You still at Bolton? I may move up to KOSU since the new hangars are almost ready and I have a deposit on one but I'm not sure if I will do it.
 
RudyP said:
Welcome back Steingar! You still at Bolton? I may move up to KOSU since the new hangars are almost ready and I have a deposit on one but I'm not sure if I will do it.
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Might move up there m myself. Tired of Bolton not having mechanical services. I was down for a flat tire for a month last summer. Wound up having to bring in a mechanic from OSU. I want to see the cheaper hangars, and might rent one, especially if they have power.
 
Zeldman said:
What is your porpoise in life..??? ;)
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my porpoise has its ups and downs....:confused:
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Michael - Good to hear you are back in the air. I'm sure you will get the hang of the do's and don'ts.
 
steingar said:
My beloved Mooney suffered a mishap of my own creation. I can now and forever say that I've had worse landings. It returned to service today.
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While you were away, I saw your wisdom and got me one of those Mooney things too. Ironically it's out of service currently.
 
steingar said:
Mooneys are notorious for prop strikes and overruns on short strips. I managed the former.
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About that, a funny thing happened to me too. On the ferry flight, when I landed at home base, I suddenly porposied the M20E. At first I could not believe it's happening. I mean, it's a trike gear. So I simply waited for it to start coming down and then pulled on the yoke. I expected to time it perfectly so it stalls right into a landing. HECK NO. It jumped even higher than the first time. I went full power and around the patch. Didn't get a prop strike.
 
Those rubber biscuits are not dampers, they pretty much return 100% of the energy you put into them. Hit hard, bounce high! Kind of like a superball. You can't force a Mooney to stop flying.
 
zaitcev said:
About that, a funny thing happened to me too. On the ferry flight, when I landed at home base, I suddenly porposied the M20E. At first I could not believe it's happening. I mean, it's a trike gear. So I simply waited for it to start coming down and then pulled on the yoke. I expected to time it perfectly so it stalls right into a landing. HECK NO. It jumped even higher than the first time. I went full power and around the patch. Didn't get a prop strike.
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It happens. Good thing you didn't strike the prop though. Just keep at it and you'll get it. My landing at my home base was a complete greaser. Says me get lots of dual with someone who knows Mooneys. I thought I really had it down, I couldn't have been more mistaken.
 
steingar said:
What I really need to understand at an intuitive level is energy. It isn't just about airspeed, that's what I thought and it bit me hard. The incident occurred because I was landing a fairly short strip (I thought 2600 feet, though it was actually about 800 feet longer (it has been lengthened since my last visit). Coming over the tress at the arrival end I pulled the power going about 80. 70 over the numbers and BAM!. I hit so hard that the energy was transmitted up the wheel into the fork (destroying one of the biscuits) into the Johnson bar and not the holder. It destroyed the holder, I now have a new one from Mooney.

If someone is coming in fast at a low power setting it might be just fine. The airplane will slow down quickly with gear and flaps deployed and no power. If you come in slow you probably want some power, you need energy to arrest the sink and flair. That's where I blew it big time.

Like I said, I knew nothing and know nothing. Actually, that's not entirely true. Pitch and power, just like a trainer. Its just that complex aircraft are a little more finicky about the combination, and you really have to know what you're doing as you approach the edge of the envelope. I didn't and don't.
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Could an AOA indicator help you? (no flames!). Sounds like you were coming in REAL steep with no energy left to level. I haven't flown with one and Maui(salesman) caused it to be a running joke around here, but I would like to try and fly with one at some point. Making sure you have lift reserve would be key.
 
Help me out people, it's been a long time for me, but isn't part of the issue with porpoising failure to maintain adequate back pressure on the stick?
 
PaulS said:
Help me out people, it's been a long time for me, but isn't part of the issue with porpoising failure to maintain adequate back pressure on the stick?
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If you let a Mooney down onto the runway before it stalls it will likely jump back into the air. In fact, one way to know you're ready to rotate on takeoff is the plane starts dancing or skating around on the landing gear, and this happens at 60-65kts.
 
Bill Jennings said:
If you let a Mooney down onto the runway before it stalls it will likely jump back into the air. In fact, one way to know you're ready to rotate on takeoff is the plane starts dancing or skating around on the landing gear, and this happens at 60-65kts.
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But to let it down, you have to release back pressure, or you forgot to flare. Once you bounce, the natural reaction is to release pressure to get back down, which exasperates the situation causing the nosewheel to hit and if you are really unlucky, the prop.
 
PaulS said:
Help me out people, it's been a long time for me, but isn't part of the issue with porpoising failure to maintain adequate back pressure on the stick?
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It can also happen if you allow too much sink on short final. Don't ask me how I know.
 
steingar said:
...Pitch and power, just like a trainer. Its just that complex aircraft are a little more finicky about the combination, and you really have to know what you're doing as you approach the edge of the envelope. I didn't and don't.
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Welcome back! And it is great to hear you and the Mooney are back in the air. We were starting to get overwhelmed by the BC (Bo/Cirrus) contingent, so every airworthy Mooney counts. :D ;)

You got it above. Energy management is important. As is those old "first principles" from the early flight lessons - pitch to control airspeed, power to control descent rate on final.
 
steingar said:
It can also happen if you allow too much sink on short final. Don't ask me how I know.
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I could see that happening, especially the way you described above. I'm thinking what happened is that you came in with too much vertical speed and hit the runway. You were still going 70 which is still plenty fast for the wing to fly. Hitting the runway instantly changed your attitude from a flare position to a level position (or still slightly tail low with the damage), but a position to generate lift. Between the incipient bounce and the lift from the wing flying again because you weren't at stall speed you became airborne again. The natural thing to do at that point is to push forward to get back to the ground, especially if you are worried about a short runway. Stick forward puts the nose and if you are really unlucky the prop into the ground first rather than the mains. I'm thinking back pressure might have saved the prop. A go around probably wouldn't have been a good idea after the hit, but back pressure might have helped and possibly a little power if the plane is 15 feet up and the stall horn is screaming. I'm curious what people think.
 
My post was inadequate and confusing. Let's go with just two things. (1) A Mooney qualified instructor, and (2) 1.3 Vs.

I said below 80, didn't specify mph or KIAS. Lot's of variables, CG and landing weight being the most important. It is pretty easy to load a mid-body Mooney ahead of the forward CG range which complicates the problem of too much speed. I have never flown any Mooney except an M20K (252) so my opinion really only applies to that airplane. The wings are pretty much the same though, and so do a stall at various weights, and you can pretty much figure out the final speed. Power or not depends on your pattern style. Mine is close and I frequently slip on final (Yes, a Mooney slips just fine). The 252 would have no problem with 2,000 feet at density altitudes less than 3-4K, maybe higher.

With few exceptions, certified single engine airplanes must stall at 61KIAS or below at gross. That means ~80 max at gross weight. Not many landings happen at max gross.
 
Cessna has Land O Matic with spring steel.

Mooney has Bounce O Matic with rubber biscuit gear.

Hehehehe.
 
PaulS said:
I could see that happening, especially the way you described above. I'm thinking what happened is that you came in with too much vertical speed and hit the runway. You were still going 70 which is still plenty fast for the wing to fly. Hitting the runway instantly changed your attitude from a flare position to a level position (or still slightly tail low with the damage), but a position to generate lift. Between the incipient bounce and the lift from the wing flying again because you weren't at stall speed you became airborne again. The natural thing to do at that point is to push forward to get back to the ground, especially if you are worried about a short runway. Stick forward puts the nose and if you are really unlucky the prop into the ground first rather than the mains. I'm thinking back pressure might have saved the prop. A go around probably wouldn't have been a good idea after the hit, but back pressure might have helped and possibly a little power if the plane is 15 feet up and the stall horn is screaming. I'm curious what people think.
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I'm pretty certain I had the yoke buried in my chest. By the time the bouncing was over I noticed that it was full back. A damn good thing I didn't put in any power, that bounce asymmetrically bent the prop and broke the crankshaft. Adding power would have likely made a bad situation quite a bit worse. What the mechanic said (he witnessed the whole thing) was at the top of the first bounce the tailplane stopped flying, there wasn't really a good way to keep the back end down and it did indeed porpoise. But by that time the prop was bent and the damage done.

What really sold me on how little I know is I went back into that strip to drop off the mechanic (who is also a really good CFI). I would have aborted the landing we did, but it was actually just fine. I really need to do lots of dual and get a much better feel for my aircraft's energy.
 
steingar said:
I'm pretty certain I had the yoke buried in my chest. By the time the bouncing was over I noticed that it was full back. A damn good thing I didn't put in any power, that bounce asymmetrically bent the prop and broke the crankshaft. Adding power would have likely made a bad situation quite a bit worse. What the mechanic said (he witnessed the whole thing) was at the top of the first bounce the tailplane stopped flying, there wasn't really a good way to keep the back end down and it did indeed porpoise. But by that time the prop was bent and the damage done.

What really sold me on how little I know is I went back into that strip to drop off the mechanic (who is also a really good CFI). I would have aborted the landing we did, but it was actually just fine. I really need to do lots of dual and get a much better feel for my aircraft's energy.
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Wow, sometimes crap happens and it can happen to anyone. Metal bends but can be fixed, people, not as easy. Glad you are ok, let us know if you have any eureka moments when you get your dual finished, we can all learn something from this I think.
 
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