The 'rachet' method for landings

[FastEddieB]

When I flare for a three point, I never know if all three are going to touch in tandem, or the mains first, or the tail first, or on just one main.

Somehow I knew all that stuff.

Weird.

 

[txflyer]

Somehow I knew all that stuff.

Weird.

Not following you, but M'kay.

I can be taught new tricks. I'm not the Grandmaster of TW landings by a long shot.

I come here to learn, and if you can teach me how to do perfect three pointers, I'm all ears.

 

[James331]

I've wheel landed the Flybaby maybe twice. I've three pointed hundreds and hundreds of times. Someday I look forward to flying a Tailwheel where a wheel landing makes more sense but I haven't yet. Although I beleive many of the flybaby guys wheel land but I sure don't see an advantage doing so.

Tail low two point is ideal IMO.

Your mains are stronger

Better visibility

For cross winds, it keeps you in more of a flying attitude incase of a go around.

 

[jesse]

Where are you looking to gauge your altitude exactly? Looking out the side or the front quarter tells me nothing.

And you know exactly how far down the gear extend?

And if you notice, I said attitude, not altitude. When I flare for a three point, I never know if all three are going to touch in tandem, or the mains first, or the tail first, or on just one main. It's a rodeo.

I have no problem telling how high I am. I tend to look out the left and my eyes focus on the runway edge. I can't see over the nose in the FlyBaby whatsoever when on the ground. My home made landing light also angles heavily to the left.

I've three pointed the Flybaby in winds gusting to 38 knots 45 degrees or so off the runway. The landing wasn't the scary part. Taxing the airplane and getting out to tie it down was terrifying. 700 lb airplane.

 

[Henning]

I feel like wheelie's give me more control.

There's a grey moment when doing a three point where it feels like the landing is up to the God's. You can't see out, you don't know exactly what attitude you are at with the ground, and it just feels out of control for a second.

I think the military and other agencies like the coast guard are teaching wheelie's as the safer option. And if you do it right, you can actually stop shorter doing wheelie's. Watch the Valdez boys.

That's one thing round engine Ag planes teach you, faith. Seriously though, I know what you're talking about. Thing I do is keep my eyes and head pointed forward looking through the whatever is between my eyeballs and the end of the runway while I pay attention to my peripheral vision.

I grew up in gymnastics and there is a rule they teach you. Where the eyes lead, everything will follow. When you do a back flip, you look straight up and back. If you try to look over your shoulder you will twist. Same goes for everything. Keep your eyes pointed where you want to go and use peripheral cues to maintain attitude and cross check position. In Ag they teach you once you see sky under the wire, never look at the wire again, watch the ground clearance and maintain that. If you look at the wire, you will hit the wire. Applies to riding motorcycles as well.

You don't need to see the runway ahead of you, it will still be there same place you last saw it.

 

[FastEddieB]

Not following you, but M'kay.

I can be taught new tricks. I'm not the Grandmaster of TW landings by a long shot.

I come here to learn, and if you can teach me how to do perfect three pointers, I'm all ears.

OK.

My experience is about 1,500 tw hours in Cubs, 140, 170, a couple Citabrias I owned, Cessna AG Trucks and Ag Huskies I ferried, and an Experimental homebuilt biplane I ferried from AZ to TN.

Each is slightly different. But in the Cub and Citabrias, I found the most secure landings were ones where the tailwheel rolled on slightly first, then the mains dropped maybe 6" as the stick came back all the way. If all three touched down simultaneously, I found the plane more "skittery" for a few seconds, since it still had a tiny bit of lift left.

In a Citabria from the back seat, I had to look to one side or the other. But since I was taught that in nose wheels as well, it was an easy adjustment. As stated in other threads, maybe generally looking towards the runway edge, with the main wheel in my peripheral view, scanning but concentrating maybe 50' or so in front of the plane. All things being equal, I would look right, having spent more time in the right seat of side-by-sides. I might offset a foot or two to the left of the centerline - right over it and it could disappear entirely. I really could accurately judge my height, so it is possible.

What Henning said about looking "through" the panel and using peripheral vision obviously works for him. But in general, peripheral vision is great for detecting motion, not so great for detail. I obviously utilize it, but would never just stare at or through my student's back solely relying on peripheral vision. I do, in fact, turn my head and look at an angle. NOT subconsciously pulling the plane in that direction, as you might do in Henning's "wire" example, is a learned skill.

But whatever works.

Not a dig, but if you feel blind and at God's mercy during any part of a tailwheel landing, to paraphrase Steve Jobs, "You're doing it wrong!"

My CFI is expired, but if you ever make it to Copperhill, TN, we can play!

 

[Henning]

OK.

My experience is about 1,500 tw hours in Cubs, 140, 170, a couple Citabrias I owned, Cessna AG Trucks and Ag Huskies I ferried, and an Experimental homebuilt biplane I ferried from AZ to TN.

Each is slightly different. But in the Cub and Citabrias, I found the most secure landings were ones where the tailwheel rolled on slightly first, then the mains dropped maybe 6" as the stick came back all the way. If all three touched down simultaneously, I found the plane more "skittery" for a few seconds, since it still had a tiny bit of lift left.

In a Citabria from the back seat, I had to look to one side or the other. But since I was taught that in nose wheels as well, it was an easy adjustment. As stated in other threads, maybe generally looking towards the runway edge, with the main wheel in my peripheral view, scanning but concentrating maybe 50' or so in front of the plane. All things being equal, I would look right, having spent more time in the right seat of side-by-sides. I might offset a foot or two to the left of the centerline - right over it and it could disappear entirely. I really could accurately judge my height, so it is possible.

What Henning said about looking "through" the panel and using peripheral vision obviously works for him. But in general, peripheral vision is great for detecting motion, not so great for detail. I obviously utilize it, but would never just stare at or through my student's back solely relying on peripheral vision. I do, in fact, turn my head and look at an angle. NOT subconsciously pulling the plane in that direction, as you might do in Henning's "wire" example, is a learned skill.

But whatever works.

Not a dig, but if you feel blind and at God's mercy during any part of a tailwheel landing, to paraphrase Steve Jobs, "You're doing it wrong!"

My CFI is expired, but if you ever make it to Copperhill, TN, we can play!

I find it rare in a TW plane this isn't true doing a 3 point. I pretty much always tag Tailwheel first.

 

[txflyer]

Thanks Eddie, I'll take you up on that free lesson if I ever get around there.

One thing you mentioned that is not possible in the wagon is you cannot see the mains.

It's kind of a guesswork when they'll touch.

 

[jesse]

I find it rare in a TW plane this isn't true doing a 3 point. I pretty much always tag Tailwheel first.

Always tailwheel first in the Flybaby. Even more so now since I yanked the square shaped wheel that came on it and put on a pneumatic that raises the tail a good inch and a half.

 

[FastEddieB]

Thanks Eddie, I'll take you up on that free lesson if I ever get around there.

One thing you mentioned that is not possible in the wagon is you cannot see the mains.

It's kind of a guesswork when they'll touch.

As a couple here have confirmed...

I found that forgetting the mains and just feeling for the runway with the tailwheel worked best for me. Roll it on and the mains will be right above the runway ready to drop in from a few inches.

It's really all about the mental imagery that works for any individual - or doesn't.

Is "the wagon" a reference to a Sky Wagon? Never flown one. Can you really not see the mains? It seems like you could.

edited to add: Seeing the mains is kind of unique to sitting in the back of a tandem high wing. Looking at the mains, or even having them in one's peripheral view, is certainly not normal SOP when landing.

 

[txflyer]

As a couple here have confirmed...

I found that forgetting the mains and just feeling for the runway with the tailwheel worked best for me. Roll it on and the mains will be right above the runway ready to drop in from a few inches.

It's really all about the mental imagery that works for any individual - or doesn't.

Is "the wagon" a reference to a Sky Wagon? Never flown one. Can you really not see the mains? It seems like you could.

edited to add: Seeing the mains is kind of unique to sitting in the back of a tandem high wing. Looking at the mains, or even having them in one's peripheral view, is certainly not normal SOP when landing.

Right, you cannot see the mains on our wagon (skywagon.) You can put your nose on the pilot's window and see the left main, but never the right.

I need to get one of those little mirrors to go out on the right strut so at least I can see if there's a wheel there ...

Been going on faith up to this point.

 

[Henning]

Right, you cannot see the mains on our wagon (skywagon.) You can put your nose on the pilot's window and see the left main, but never the right.

I need to get one of those little mirrors to go out on the right strut so at least I can see if there's a wheel there ...

Been going on faith up to this point.

Everyone who flys a low wing can't see their gear, we all fly by faith, judgement, and learned perspectives. What I do checking myself out in a new plane is taxi around for a while so the perspective cues get etched in some. That is how I judge height is comparative perspective. Peripheral vision is useful for a whole lot more than warning you you're about to get hit.

 

[FastEddieB]

What I do checking myself out in a new plane is taxi around for a while so the perspective cues get etched in some. That is how I judge height is comparative perspective.

Having a student sit in the cockpit while someone pushes the tail down to the landing attitude is particularly helpful in a nosewheel aircraft. In planes with high panels, the need to look to the side will be obvious.

Not really needed in a taildragger, since you're already there!

 

[Henning]

Having a student sit in the cockpit while someone pushes the tail down to the landing attitude is particularly helpful in a nosewheel aircraft. In planes with high panels, the need to look to the side will be obvious.

Not really needed in a taildragger, since you're already there!

Motion helps as well. In a nose dragger you can hold the stick in your gut and wheelie down the runway.

 

[bluerooster]

I used to do that in the Yankee all the time. Just carry a touch of power to touchdown, and hold the nose up for nearly a mile.

 

[James331]

If you're looking anywhere near your wheels during landing, you already messed up.

Rollin the tailwheel first is bad forum, damaging in some bigger types.

You should be looking all the way down the runway (pre-solo stuff right?), also you shouldn't be needing any power crossing the threshold.

 

[ChrisK]

If you're looking anywhere near your wheels during landing, you already messed up.



Rollin the tailwheel first is bad forum, damaging in some bigger types.



You should be looking all the way down the runway (pre-solo stuff right?), also you shouldn't be needing any power crossing the threshold.

My tw instructor advised me to carry a tiny bit of power for wheel landings in the 65hp cub. Not being contrary so much as offering his view for consideration.

 

[FastEddieB]

If you're looking any where near your wheels during landing, you already messed up.

Agreed, though one may be in your peripheral view from the back of a tandem.

Rollin the tailwheel first is bad forum, damaging in some bigger types.

I have not flown every possible taildragger, so I'll stipulate to the "damaging in bigger types" part.

Has worked for me in the ones I listed prior.

You should be looking all the way down the runway (pre-solo stuff right?), also you shouldn't be needing any power crossing the threshold.

Agree on the power, disagree that "all the way down the runway" is either "pre-solo stuff", nor will give any view at all in some taildraggers*.

But rather than repeat myself, my opinion - complete with photos - can be found earlier in this thread.

*3-pointing this looking "all the way down the runway" could cause problems: