The quest for a good instructor...

[mscottfl]

I lost my instructor to the airlines- phenomenal pilot. Flew with the chief instructor at my school for a couple times to do a phase check and he solo'd me. I'm confident in my ability so far but have a lot left to learn. As I start in phase 2 of my training, I'm really trying to find that instructor that will coach me but let me make mistakes at the same time.

What I don't need is what I have now...a relatively new instructor who loves to grab the controls without positive exchange during landing. During my last cross country flight, it felt like the blind leading the blind. Anyone else had this experience?

I'm doing my first night flight with another instructor tomorrow after work. Fingers crossed that his teaching style matches up with that of my first instructor...otherwise I'm not sure what I'll do.

Sorry for the rant- but I know that if anyone can give me feedback on this topic- it would be on this board. Thanks!

 

[EdFred]

Ask your instructor if it's a part 91 operation, or a part 135 operation you are operating under. If he answers part 91, then ask him why he is doing all the landings.

He should get the hint.

 

[Ted]

Tell your instructor what he's doing wrong. If he doesn't get it (or even if he does, depends on your view), go to the chief instructor and tell him, too. If your school can't give you an instructor who you like, find another school.

Finding a good instructor who you mesh with is important.

 

[drizzt76]

If you liked the Chief Instructor...maybe talk to him and express your concerns. He may be able to switch instructors or take you up himself. You will not be the first student pilot that change instructors nor the last.

 

[gismo]

If you liked the Chief Instructor...maybe talk to him and express your concerns. He may be able to switch instructors or take you up himself. You will not be the first student pilot that change instructors nor the last.

You also wouldn't be the first to suffer at the hands (literally!) of an inexperienced CFI who hasn't learned how far he can safely let a student go before taking over.

 

[Bobcat1]

Hey, it's your money. Just start scheduling with a new instructor. Don't even bother with dealing with the Chief Pilot. You really don't have to give a reason.

 

[TMetzinger]

Hey, it's your money. Just start scheduling with a new instructor. Don't even bother with dealing with the Chief Pilot. You really don't have to give a reason.

Yes, but it's better Karma if you do. If you bring the topic up, you may find that the CFI is responsive (or the Chief is) and things get not just better but MUCH better.

I've always appreciated it when somebody told me how I wasn't meeting their expectations. Maybe not so much immediately, but always with a little time to reflect. Always generated more respect for the other person on my part too.

So I recommend that the OP first discuss it with his new instructor, THEN take it to the Chief if he isn't completely satisfied with the results.

 

[dmccormack]

Yes, but it's better Karma if you do. If you bring the topic up, you may find that the CFI is responsive (or the Chief is) and things get not just better but MUCH better.

I've always appreciated it when somebody told me how I wasn't meeting their expectations. Maybe not so much immediately, but always with a little time to reflect. Always generated more respect for the other person on my part too.

So I recommend that the OP first discuss it with his new instructor, THEN take it to the Chief if he isn't completely satisfied with the results.

Definitely (though without any Karma) - maybe it won't change it for you, but may help the next student?

 

[TMetzinger]

Definitely (though without any Karma) - maybe it won't change it for you, but may help the next student?

Well, and your old school won't remember you as an ****at, which may come in handy someday... Aviation is a small world, and the guy you insult today may be your Captain/Examiner/POI someday.

 

[Bob Noel]

Ask your instructor if it's a part 91 operation, or a part 135 operation you are operating under. If he answers part 91, then ask him why he is doing all the landings.

He should get the hint.

hoping and hinting is not usually the best way to get achieve behavior changes

 

[JesseD]

My old instructor was relatively new to instruction. Though didn't grab the controls, he was a bit higher strung. Great guy, and I didn't really mind, but my performance has definitely improved with the current instructor. FYI I lost my previous instructor to charter flying. He felt bad about it and I had to remind him, "we said if scheduling became an issue for either of us we'd revisit switching out for a different instructor." Well it became an issue for him, and so the switch came.

Be an adult about it. Tell him you think you learn / execute better with someone else. If he's an adult, he won't mind, because not everyone meshes in terms of availability or style.

 

[TMetzinger]

hoping and hinting is not usually the best way to get achieve behavior changes

Just ask my wife!

 

[jesse]

You also wouldn't be the first to suffer at the hands (literally!) of an inexperienced CFI who hasn't learned how far he can safely let a student go before taking over.

It's a very fine line. I keep my hands folded on my lap and my feet off the rudder pedals at all times. When an inexperienced pilot is practicing stalls I give us altitude and I have my feet ready but still don't get them anywhere near the controls. I don't want the student to think that I feel they will lose it.

It's not realistic to have a three step positive exchange of controls in the last two feet of landing if someone does something nasty. I'll verbally tell the student I'm helping them out but there is no time to wait for them to respond to that.

 

[gismo]

It's a very fine line. I keep my hands folded on my lap and my feet off the rudder pedals at all times. When an inexperienced pilot is practicing stalls I give us altitude and I have my feet ready but still don't get them anywhere near the controls. I don't want the student to think that I feel they will lose it.

That sounds OK to me. I can't imagine that having a CFI grab the controls often would build much self confidence in a student.

It's not realistic to have a three step positive exchange of controls in the last two feet of landing if someone does something nasty. I'll verbally tell the student I'm helping them out but there is no time to wait for them to respond to that.

I think the "standard" is to grab the controls while simultaneously exclaiming "I've got the airplane" (skipping the first two steps of the exchange) in that case. Just taking over without saying anything would risk a wrestling match. IIRC the reason for the handshake exchange protocol is to prevent a situation where no one is flying the airplane.

 

[jesse]

I think the "standard" is to grab the controls while simultaneously exclaiming "I've got the airplane" (skipping the first two steps of the exchange) in that case. Just taking over without saying anything would risk a wrestling match. IIRC the reason for the handshake exchange protocol is to prevent a situation where no one is flying the airplane.

Agree.

I had some dope CFI in New Orleans giving me a checkout in a 172 about a month ago. She couldn't keep her hand off the controls and had them hovering over them or on them for the entire checkout. Kind of annoying since I have hundreds of hours in 172 and am a commercial pilot / cfi that is very active.

When we did stalls one of the wings dropped a bit and she immediately slammed in full opposite aileron. I had to fight it back and properly used the rudder to correct it. Not an instructor I'd recommend... Worst part was I was paying her $75 per hour.

She also asked me to do a short field landing on the 3rd stripe or something like that then got all worked up because I didn't permit room for a 50 foot obstacle. I informed her there was no obstacle. She said the PTS requires it...I said we weren't on a checkride and the PTS does not specify it. Sigh.

 

[bbchien]

Yes, Jesse. Such is our condition. Sigh.

 

[mscottfl]

Thanks for all the replies. I have made the change and will talk to the instructor that I had an issue with the next time that I see her at the school. No interest in making enemies for sure, just know that its important to connect and respect your CFI and being that its a large investment I just wanted to make sure I was getting the best for my investment. Thanks guys.

Sent from my EVO shift using Tapatalk pro

 

[sba55]

Hey, it's your money. Just start scheduling with a new instructor. Don't even bother with dealing with the Chief Pilot. You really don't have to give a reason.

That's very good to keep in mind.

CFIs are there to help you. You pay them to do so. You hold all the cards. If you unsuccessfully ask them to do something differently, just go somewhere else. I wouldn't tolerate anything but complete professionalism if I'm paying for a service.

 

[jmcsherry]

You also wouldn't be the first to suffer at the hands (literally!) of an inexperienced CFI who hasn't learned how far he can safely let a student go before taking over.

When I was a new instructor, I could barely let my hands get a millimeter from the controls - I didn't know what I could recover from, or how far astray to let someone go before it was past the learning level. It took a few (dozen) flights to get the feel for that. Sorta like learning to land a different model of aircraft. And that was as a new CFI, but one with 30 years of classroom teaching in Philly high schools. I have to have pity on a 300-hr wonder with no experience as a teacher.
Still, as was said, it's your money; get what you pay for, or don't pay.

I hope things have worked out for you, and it is only proper to let the original CFI know what the problem was. But do so politely. You will feel better about it when you are teaching someone.

 

[Ted]

It's a very fine line. I keep my hands folded on my lap and my feet off the rudder pedals at all times. When an inexperienced pilot is practicing stalls I give us altitude and I have my feet ready but still don't get them anywhere near the controls. I don't want the student to think that I feel they will lose it.

This is what I do. The typical first-lesson response from a student is "I'm amazed at how much flying I did!" "Well, that's what you're here for - to fly."

But, as you said, it gets substantially more difficult the closer you get to the ground.

 

[airdale]

What I don't need is what I have now...a relatively new instructor ... the blind leading the blind.

I think the discussion here is missing a critical point.

If you wanted to learn to drive, would you seek out a 17 year-old who had been licensed for a year and never been out of town? If you wanted to learn to ski would you use an instructor who first skied two years ago and had only been on one hill? If you wanted to learn fine cuisine, would you apprentice with someone who had just completed a junior college culinary curriculum? No, no and of course not.

It is possible to get the CFI and CFII ratings without ever having flown in a cloud and, IIRC, having landed at only three airports. Is this the instructor you want?

The point is, of course, that you are in a system that has newbies teaching newbies. My suggestion is that you reject that. Demand an experienced instructor or find a new school.

I would insist on an instructor who had significant real-world (not "dual given") flying experience (500 hours or more PIC including real cross-country travel) and one who had signed off at least ten Private Pilot candidates with successful (first-time) check rides. When you move up to the Instrument Airplane, accept no one who is not regularly flying light singles or twins cross-country in the system. In addition to being experienced, these folks are also likely to be instructing for the long haul and because they love it. They are not just building hours.

I can anticipate the objections:

"Who are these young instructors to teach, then?" Not my problem. Their need for lab rats on which to conduct experiments does not create an obligation on my part to volunteer. In any case, the Part 141 school from which they just graduated will probably provide enough rats.

"A young, fresh attitude and recent training can result in excellent instruction." Absolutely true. One can win at roulette, too, but the odds are against it. Actually, the odds of winning at roulette are much better than the odds of finding the magic newbie.

You're the customer. Customer Service is not something you do for the Chief Instructor. Go to him. Try his experienced instructors (if he has any) until you find one that is good for you. If you can't find one, vote with your feet.

You can get killed doing this. You want the best instruction you can find, regardless of whether you annoy a few vendors along the way.

 

[jesse]

and one who had signed off at least ten Private Pilot candidates with successful (first-time) check rides.

That could be an issue if everyone requested that.

 

[N801BH]

I lost my instructor to the airlines- phenomenal pilot. Flew with the chief instructor at my school for a couple times to do a phase check and he solo'd me. I'm confident in my ability so far but have a lot left to learn. As I start in phase 2 of my training, I'm really trying to find that instructor that will coach me but let me make mistakes at the same time.

What I don't need is what I have now...a relatively new instructor who loves to grab the controls without positive exchange during landing. During my last cross country flight, it felt like the blind leading the blind. Anyone else had this experience?

I'm doing my first night flight with another instructor tomorrow after work. Fingers crossed that his teaching style matches up with that of my first instructor...otherwise I'm not sure what I'll do.

Sorry for the rant- but I know that if anyone can give me feedback on this topic- it would be on this board. Thanks!

The simple fact that you make this observation shows ' at least to me' you will make a fine pilot...

Ben.

 

[airdale]

That could be an issue if everyone requested that.

Yes, but P.T. Barnum's famous observation applies. There are plenty of students that can be made to be unwitting lab rats. It is unlikely that there will ever be a rat shortage.

Regardless, that is not the OP's problem. His problem is to get the best training that he can find.

 

[jesse]

Yes, but P.T. Barnum's famous observation applies. There are plenty of students that can be made to be unwitting lab rats. It is unlikely that there will ever be a rat shortage.

Regardless, that is not the OP's problem. His problem is to get the best training that he can find.

Ah, well please don't tell my students that they are lab rats getting poor instruction.

 

[Trapper John]

Yes, but P.T. Barnum's famous observation applies. There are plenty of students that can be made to be unwitting lab rats. It is unlikely that there will ever be a rat shortage.

Regardless, that is not the OP's problem. His problem is to get the best training that he can find.

I can understand what you're saying about the CFIs that come out of the aviation colleges/pilot mills that are only instructing until something better comes along. That doesn't serve the system well for several reasons:

1. The CFI with airline aspirations really doesn't want to be a CFI, and when people do something they don't want to, it shows.
2. Lack of continuity isn't good for FBOs that want to retain students.
3. The scads of CFIs generated by the pilot mills drive down the hourly rate for instruction, which makes it difficult for a person that actually wants to instruct for a full time occupation to make a living.

Anecdotally speaking, I've had the best experiences with part-time CFIs that have other jobs to pay the bills. My guess is that since they have other jobs, they instruct because they really want to, not because they have to.

 

[Everskyward]

1. The CFI with airline aspirations really doesn't want to be a CFI, and when people do something they don't want to, it shows.

I think this depends on the individual and isn't necessarily true. I've known plenty of CFIs who didn't want to make a career out of it. Some of them were great, and some were not. I've also had CFIs who were more "mature" who I wouldn't go back to again. Just because someone is young and has bigger aspirations doesn't mean they can't be good at the job at hand. As far as getting instruction for the private, I think it helps when people can at least remember when they got it themselves and the issues they might have had. Having a more experienced instructor for the instrument rating might be a good idea, though.

 

[Greg Bockelman]

1. The CFI with airline aspirations really doesn't want to be a CFI, and when people do something they don't want to, it shows.

While that may be true in some cases, heck maybe even most cases, that isn't 100% true. There are some good CFI's that have aspirations for other things.

2. Lack of continuity isn't good for FBOs that want to retain students.

Agree.

3. The scads of CFIs generated by the pilot mills drive down the hourly rate for instruction,

Supply and demand. However, the rates some FBO's charge for instruction do not filter down to the CFI.

which makes it difficult for a person that actually wants to instruct for a full time occupation to make a living.

Those that want to teach full time can figure out how to make it work. Doug Stewart, Max Trescott, and our own Ron Levy seem to have figured out how to make a pretty good living at it.

Anecdotally speaking, I've had the best experiences with part-time CFIs that have other jobs to pay the bills. My guess is that since they have other jobs, they instruct because they really want to, not because they have to.

Can't argue with that.

 

[airdale]

Ah, well please don't tell my students that they are lab rats getting poor instruction.

Sorry. My choice of phrase was perhaps a little too cute. How about "Experimental Subjects?'

And I never said (or intended to imply) that inexperienced instructors provide poor instruction. I'm sure some do, and some (probably the majority) don't. The fact that you're here, learning from others' experiences, indicates that you probably aren't giving poor instruction. It's just that when an instructor's experience bag is almost empty, there isn't much that can be taken from it to give to a student. IMHO this is especially critical in instrument training.

There's a dilemma here of course. There is no dishonor in being a beginning instructor. You have to teach in order to gain experience. And necessarily, you were experimenting with techniques beginning with your first student and you will hopefully never stop experimenting. But your techniques will be much better for your eleventh student than they were for your second. So there's nothing to be done but soldier on and try, for every student, to be the best instructor you can be.

 

[airdale]

I can understand what you're saying about the CFIs that come out of the aviation colleges/pilot mills that are only instructing until something better comes along.

Well, sort of. But my real point is that the OP should find someone with significant experience in both real-world flying and experience in instruction.

Even with the best of intentions, the young newbie instructor probably hasn't had the money to get much real-world flying experience. No experience in ice. Never learned that reaching Flight Watch isn't actually possible when you've been forced down to 700' AGL. Never had Center forget to give him a frequency change. Never chased or been chased by a front moving across the country. Never needed any more weather info than this afternoon's TAF. Most of you guys could list a hundred of these little experience snippets. (Say, did I tell you about the time I landed VFR and went IMC on the rollout? :wink2: )

 

[jmcsherry]

Sorry. My choice of phrase was perhaps a little too cute. How about "Experimental Subjects?'

And I never said (or intended to imply) that inexperienced instructors provide poor instruction. I'm sure some do, and some (probably the majority) don't. The fact that you're here, learning from others' experiences, indicates that you probably aren't giving poor instruction. It's just that when an instructor's experience bag is almost empty, there isn't much that can be taken from it to give to a student. IMHO this is especially critical in instrument training.

There's a dilemma here of course. There is no dishonor in being a beginning instructor. You have to teach in order to gain experience. And necessarily, you were experimenting with techniques beginning with your first student and you will hopefully never stop experimenting. But your techniques will be much better for your eleventh student than they were for your second. So there's nothing to be done but soldier on and try, for every student, to be the best instructor you can be.

How would you regard those flight schools (often at academies) which have the practice to take the new CFI directly to CFII and have them begin instructing to instrument trainees - on the premise that these candidates already have the fundamental flight skills, and can safely fly whilst the CFII shows then the (recently learned and thus fresh) skills of instrument flight?

I am not intending to defend nor denigrate this practice; merely opening discussion.

 

[N801BH]

Well, sort of. But my real point is that the OP (Say, did I tell you about the time I landed VFR and went IMC on the rollout? :wink2: )

Nope I don't believe we have heard the roll out story... If it involves the ASI failing after landing we are all ears .......\

Ben.

 

[airdale]

How would you regard those flight schools (often at academies) which have the practice to take the new CFI directly to CFII and have them begin instructing to instrument trainees ...

Well, I think it is an unfortunate system that risks creating situations like this:
-----------------------------------
22: 10:57 —First Officer Rebecca Shaw: Flying in the Northeast, I've 1,600 hours. ... I had more Actual time on my first day of IOE (initial operating experience) than I did in the 1,600 hours I had when I came here.
.
.
22:12:05 — Shaw:I've never seen icing conditions. I've never deiced. ... I've never experienced any of that. I don't want to have to experience that and make those kinds of calls. You know I'd've freaked out. I'd have, like, seen this much ice and thought, oh my gosh we were going to crash.
.
.
22:16:52.0 — Shaw: We're (sound of scream)
-----------------------------------
From the Colgan 3407 CVR transcript, of course. She graduated from a 141 school, but a brief internet search didn't unearth any information on her instructors' experience. After graduating she worked as an instructor in Phoenix, a place not known for IMC or ice. Was she a victim of the system you describe? I don't know, but she certainly might have been.

I think a sharp new CFII armed with his/her fresh knowledge could probably do an excellent job teaching instrument ground school, covering the acana of plates, the squiggles and flyspecks on enroute charts, and the dark corners of the FARs.

It is my understanding that some 141 schools won't fly in IMC (maybe someone can comment). I also don't know whether they train "in the system" on IFR clearances or train VFR. It the latter, that's another weakness. I had 10+ hours of IMC and couple of (very safe) ice experiences before I took my IA ride. I guess that puts me ahead of that poor woman.

Incidentally, I am not a high-time IFR guy. I have about 225 approaches in my logbook, mostly flown under the hood, filed IFR in a busy TRACON environment. I have 30+ hours of actual IMC, mostly solo or with a non-pilot passenger. From that, and from having an outstanding instructor, I know that book learning isn't enough.

Here's a pretty good article: http://www.flyingmag.com/bombardier/jumpseat-high-cost-low-experience The punch line is this: "There is no substitute for the real thing. Experience can't be taught in a classroom or a simulator."

 

[Everskyward]

Well, I think it is an unfortunate system that risks creating situations like this:

I don't think that situation had much to do with her initial training for the instrument rating, which is what we are talking about. I think it had more to do with the airline's hiring, training and upgrade practices. That accident was primarily the captain's fault. Could she have saved the day if she had more experience? Maybe, maybe not.

Here's a pretty good article: http://www.flyingmag.com/bombardier/jumpseat-high-cost-low-experience The punch line is this: "There is no substitute for the real thing. Experience can't be taught in a classroom or a simulator."

Obviously it's a chicken or egg thing. You can't get experience without experiencing it.

I don't think many people come out of instrument training with that much experience. It's more like another license to learn. I do wish they would put more emphasis on cross-countries, though, rather than just doing approaches over and over.

As far as experienced instructors go, I know, and have flown with a guy who has many hours of instruction given. He was (and still is) an encyclopedia of knowledge. He said he would sometimes get complaints from his students (I was not one of them, I just flew with him as part of a crew) about overwhelming them with information. I could see how that might happen in some cases.

 

[kevin7500]

How is flight training different from any other education? Undergrads are taught by TA's. Grads are taught by doc candidates. Post docs over see doc candidates. Profs over see the entire process and try to find research funding. I don't think the calc physics student is being screwed by the school for providing the minimally qualified instructor. The student is being instructed by someone with the appropriate level of knowledge. Just like the PP student is being instructed by someone with sufficient knowledge for the level of training they are receiving. I don't care that my CFI was building time to get into the career of his choice. I do care that he is able to give me the skills and knowledge required to pass a written and practical examination.

I used the nervous hands of my CFI as an indicator of my progress. The less they moved the closer I was to soloing.

 

[airdale]

How is flight training different from any other education?

You can get killed if you make mistakes doing this. That is not true for most other education.

I do care that he is able to give me the skills and knowledge required to pass a written and practical examination.

IMHO that is a very low standard. Too low for me. YMMV, of course.

 

[Everskyward]

How is flight training different from any other education? Undergrads are taught by TA's. Grads are taught by doc candidates. Post docs over see doc candidates. Profs over see the entire process and try to find research funding. I don't think the calc physics student is being screwed by the school for providing the minimally qualified instructor. The student is being instructed by someone with the appropriate level of knowledge. Just like the PP student is being instructed by someone with sufficient knowledge for the level of training they are receiving. I don't care that my CFI was building time to get into the career of his choice. I do care that he is able to give me the skills and knowledge required to pass a written and practical examination.

You said that much better than me. Just as you don't need to be a math major to teach kids arithmetic you don't need to be a 747 captain to give instruction for the private. In fact I think in some ways it can be a hinderance, depending on the people involved.

 

[kevin7500]

You can get killed if you make mistakes doing this. That is not true for most other education.

Completely missed the point. Do you think that the "Chief Instructor" acquired all of his knowledge from his first CFI? Or that it was from a career of life experience and being taught by people with only marginally more knowledge? I think it was more likely the latter.

IMHO that is a very low standard. Too low for me. YMMV, of course.

I thought it was widely considered a license to learn?

 

[denverpilot]

IMHO that is a very low standard. Too low for me. YMMV, of course.

I hear this "my standards are higher" a lot, but I never see any published "We are tougher than the FAA, guaranteed!" advertising for any flight schools, or any "Tough Syllabus" books being sold about flight training. Not even magazine articles about anyone offering such.

Got any printed references to the standards you held yourself to above and beyond the FAA PTS through your check ride and beyond?

Not trying to be a smart-ass. Just saying it's odd that lots of people say they're holding themselves to a higher standard that's not a standard and is only in their heads. Looking for examples of what everyone says they're meeting.

That's not really a "higher standard", it's just tight personal tolerances.

Let's say you held yourself to +-10' altitude at all times. If you did, and you were on a check ride and blew it and went to 15' would you look over at the examiner and terminate your ride to maintain your standard?

I haven't heard of anyone doing this.

So objectively, what are these "higher standards" everyone speaks so highly of? Seriously. Not being facetious.

 

[EdFred]

I hear this "my standards are higher" a lot, but I never see any published ...

...what are these "higher standards" everyone speaks so highly of? Seriously. Not being facetious.

I don't publish anything, because under Michigan Law I would then be advertising my services, and would require a business license. Poop on that. But, when I do flight reviews, and instruction, I take whatever the tolerances are for the certificate they hold or are going for, halve them, and when they consistently keep to that set of tolerances, they get the sign off.

Oh, yeah, and I'm one of those horrible, avoid-at-all-costs-less-than-10-students-passed instructors.

Run away. Run far away!!!!