The older mountain bike thread but now a road bike review update

Yeah, real happy with the bike so far, but the 12 speed DI2 not so much.

So I cleaned the chain a couple weeks ago, and then went on a ride with the first serious hill climb where I needed the lowest gear. LOUD clacking in the two lowest. I got back, Googled a bit and found incomplete cleaning could result in clicking (that has never happened to me before.) I did a super deep clean with the Park tool mechanical scrubber where you clamp it over the chain, fill it with solvent and crank for a while. It seemed to help but there is still clicking on the big ring. Yes - I did test the functionality of all the gears when I rode it at the LBS and everything was fine.

I'm not sure what the problem is. It could either be something is wonky with the big ring on the rear, or it still could be the chain. There is a serious, push it to the complete limit lateral deflection on the chain from the big gear and the back and the big ring on the front. Using the small ring in the front helps but doesn't solve the problem. Apparently this is a known issue with the 12 speed DI2 setup.

I guess I can do a warranty call with the LBS, but it's not exactly easy for me to get out that way. I might ride it around for a while see if maybe whatever is lodged in the chain manages to dislodge itself. Nothing on the gear itself appears to be bent or chipped, at least visually.
 
Cross chaining is never a good idea.
 
I've never owned a bike where that was an issue - even triple crank mountain bikes. My SRAM 10 speed cassette is perfectly happy riding around big ring on big ring and I've consistently gotten about 6,000 miles out of a chain since I had the bike. But whatever the issue is, it isn't a cross chaining issue, as the noise is happening when the chain is in the small front ring as well.
 
Sac Arrow said:
I've never owned a bike where that was an issue - even triple crank mountain bikes. My SRAM 10 speed cassette is perfectly happy riding around big ring on big ring and I've consistently gotten about 6,000 miles out of a chain since I had the bike. But whatever the issue is, it isn't a cross chaining issue, as the noise is happening when the chain is in the small front ring as well.
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Is it definitely a rear chainring issue or could it be axle or something else?
 
Just a guess, but a 12 speed is a pretty narrow chain and it covers a lot of cassette. I'd suspect a rear derailleur alignment issue rather than the chain. Can you look at it along the chainline from the rear and see if it's lined up when it's in those cogs? Not sure how one adjusts the electronic shifters, but if it was a cable shifter, I'd be trying a quarter turn adjustment (e.g. very small).
 
No,
TCABM said:
Is it definitely a rear chainring issue or could it be axle or something else?
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It's either a rear chainring issue, or possibly a chain issue. I'm thinking chain because a deep cleaning improved the situation but did not solve it. Plus none of the big sprocket teeth look bent or chipped - at least visually.

Hang 4 said:
Just a guess, but a 12 speed is a pretty narrow chain and it covers a lot of cassette. I'd suspect a rear derailleur alignment issue rather than the chain. Can you look at it along the chainline from the rear and see if it's lined up when it's in those cogs? Not sure how one adjusts the electronic shifters, but if it was a cable shifter, I'd be trying a quarter turn adjustment (e.g. very small).
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The electronic shifters don't go out of adjustment and everything is working fine in all gears except the big rear, which is... really big. As far as a bent hanger, the bike has never been dropped or anything banged against the derailleur and it visually looks straight.
 
Di2 12 speed adjustment https://bettershifting.com/installa...peed-di2-rear-derailleur-shifting-and-limits/
Seems like a well written guide. Lots of comments that might include your specific issue.

When I was mentioning aligned, I was referring to the chainline when viewed from the rear in the cog with the issue. Not suspecting a bent hangar on a new bike. What exactly does the noise sound like and can you replicate it when the bike is in a workstand?
 
Hang 4 said:
Di2 12 speed adjustment https://bettershifting.com/installa...peed-di2-rear-derailleur-shifting-and-limits/
Seems like a well written guide. Lots of comments that might include your specific issue.

When I was mentioning aligned, I was referring to the chainline when viewed from the rear in the cog with the issue. Not suspecting a bent hangar on a new bike. What exactly does the noise sound like and can you replicate it when the bike is in a workstand?
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I wasn't ignoring your suggestion, we have just had such a long stretch of crappy weather I didn't have the opportunity to get out in the sunlight and look close at things. It makes sense. Noise in the big ring only (or small ring only) could well be a limit screw issue.

Anyway, so to get it to shift to the big ring I needed to pull it out and ride it on the street. I shifted it in to the big ring. And guess what?

Smooth as buttah. I think whatever chain obstruction or whatever it was worked itself out. I rode it around for a bit, and no noise whatsoever.

Maybe the solvents did their thing over an extended down period.

I'm happy.
 
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Update: Okay I was wrong. I'm not sure why it worked fine on a short test ride the other day, maybe I failed to actually shift in to the big gear. I got on it to do a real ride, tested the big gear out and clankity clank.

It ended up being a limit screw issue. I studied the adjustment procedure and in the end, the limit screws are conventional and not some Martian alien technology, so a quarter turn later and I was good to go.
 
So...

I'm starting to wear out the rear tire. It's a Vittoria Zaffiro Pro 2 tire which is basically Vittoria's best OEM tire but it's slightly chunky. And I like it but I want something a little lighter when I go for my next set. I have my eyes on either the Vittoria Corsa Next, or Continental 5000's. The Conti's are slightly lighter than the Corsa, but cheaper and I've had decent success with Conti's, but with Gatorskins, which are heavy. The 4000 Grand Prix I ran on my old bike were super rideable. But I do like the OEM tires on my new bike.

Two questions:

1. 700cx30mm what is the best recommendation for a good tire with decent weight, rolling resistance and puncture resistance? Google got me to the two above. I want to hear from experience. Yes I like the 30's and want to stick with them. They really do ride nice. No I don't want to go thicker. Man has to know his limits.

2. I have several 700x28mm max Continental race tubes left over for my old bike (running 25c tires.) I bought a couple 700x30 inner tubes to keep so I could have one in my saddle bag for flats. The Conti tubes are obviously lighter than the correct ones but, can I use them without massive failure? Google suggests it will work but if you try to patch them on the fly, the fixes won't work. I don't try to fix road tires anymore with patches. They don't last. It seems that one size over shouldn't make a huge difference. Experience?
 
I’m running 700x25 Conti 5000s on my wife’s bike and 700x25 Michelin Lithion 2s on mine. Those were the only stuff in stock when I changed tires last on each bike. Both seem to deliver as expected, but I don’t ride my wife’s bike other than after a tuneup or to diagnose a problem.

For tubes all I’ve got is Continental Race 28s and I’m not real happy with them…they have been flat prone for me.
 
I ride Conti 4000, 5000 and Gatorskins across multiple wheelsets. Gatorskins feel like rocks. 4000/5000 are great, can't really tell the difference between the two. 5000's on my carbon wheels are the cats ass.
 
I just finished upgrading my Crux frame, full Sram Force AXS etap groupset, and Zipp 303 Firecrest hookless wheels. Running Continental 5000 S TR tubeless tires, between the carbon wheels and the 5000 tires it’s fricken good!!!

Thumbs up for the 5000 family of tires.
upload_2023-4-20_22-5-49.jpeg
 
Once I switched to conti's I never looked back. Started with the 4000s, now onto the 5000s, good stuff. I always cross chain, big ring feels more efficient.
 
I'll probably lean towards the Conti 5000's. I used to run 4000's on the Tarmac but switched to Gatorskins since our roads tend to be worse than in some third world countries. That and we have a lot of puncture weed out here. It's particularly bad in the Fall when it starts dying off and gets on the road.

I do have tubeless compatible rims, but otherwise they run standard clinchers. So far I've had reasonable luck with the Conti Race 28 tubes, which are still a lot more reliable than the POS Bontrager tubes my LBS stocks.
 
Well I bit the bullet on the GP 5000's. I ditched the stock Vittoria's a bit early but I just wanted something better. All I can say is 1) The ride was nicer and I was riding a gear higher than normal, 2) I actually passed a real cyclist (he probably had a knee injury), and 3) had 8 ribbon thingies on Strava including 4 PR's. So I'm going to say it was more than just placebo effect.
 
I've got a 5000 and a 4000 on my bike now, about half way worn through now. The are great tires. No thorns here, but constant cracks and bumps, no problems yet.
 
I was running 4000's on my Tarmac before I switched to the Gators. The early 4000's had known weak sidewall issues, and I did in fact blow out a sidewall running a normal pressure. I inflated my tire to 110, noticed a bulge, was puzzled, saw it get bigger, then BLAM! I think that is what pushed me over the edge to switch to the Gators. Other than that, the 4000's were nice tires.

There is a big difference running the 30's over 25's. The GP 5000 30's are lighter than the 25 Gators, and I think running them at a lower pressure (about 85) will help with flats. It sure helps with ride quality.
 
I’m running GP5000s in 32 size on my FrankenCrux, at 57psi. The bike rides fast and smooth, and I’m keeping up nicely with the faster club riders.
 
I swapped the 40 tooth chainwheel for a 42 tooth on my 1X11 and the top gear is slightly higher, but more importantly, my cruising gears are more suited to fine adjustment for conditions. I can choose between three or four comfortable ratios.
 
Per above, I dumped the 1x drive train and went with the SRAM wide range gearing. 46/33 front rings with a 10/36 12sp cassette. Love the gearing, love eTap.
 
Sac Arrow said:
I was running 4000's on my Tarmac before I switched to the Gators. The early 4000's had known weak sidewall issues, and I did in fact blow out a sidewall running a normal pressure. I inflated my tire to 110, noticed a bulge, was puzzled, saw it get bigger, then BLAM! I think that is what pushed me over the edge to switch to the Gators. Other than that, the 4000's were nice tires.

There is a big difference running the 30's over 25's. The GP 5000 30's are lighter than the 25 Gators, and I think running them at a lower pressure (about 85) will help with flats. It sure helps with ride quality.
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I'm not real concerned with weight, I figure a good dump will lighten my load more than a few grams of tire weight. I'm riding a road bike, I thought it was a big deal to go from 23s to 25s which is what I run now. 110 psi sounds very high for a 25. I used to run at 100, but the roads here in NH are getting pretty bad so I run about 95 psi.

I wonder how the rolling resistance compares between the 25s and 30s?

I'm finally starting to get into the groove after a lot of starts and stops this years. Unfortunately I can't ride outdoors here in the winter, so it feels like the first time every spring.
 
PaulS said:
I'm not real concerned with weight, I figure a good dump will lighten my load more than a few grams of tire weight. I'm riding a road bike, I thought it was a big deal to go from 23s to 25s which is what I run now. 110 psi sounds very high for a 25. I used to run at 100, but the roads here in NH are getting pretty bad so I run about 95 psi.

I wonder how the rolling resistance compares between the 25s and 30s?

I'm finally starting to get into the groove after a lot of starts and stops this years. Unfortunately I can't ride outdoors here in the winter, so it feels like the first time every spring.
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Rotational mass is key though. One pound on the wheel = six pounds on the frame. I do find I'm able to start out from a stop a gear or two higher than I normally would, which is kind of a big deal. I would say that as a practical matter, the rolling resistance of the 30's is less since you are running them at a lower pressure, which gives you higher speed over rough surfaces.
 
Sac Arrow said:
Well I bit the bullet on the GP 5000's. I ditched the stock Vittoria's a bit early but I just wanted something better. All I can say is 1) The ride was nicer and I was riding a gear higher than normal, 2) I actually passed a real cyclist (he probably had a knee injury), and 3) had 8 ribbon thingies on Strava including 4 PR's. So I'm going to say it was more than just placebo effect.
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Conti GP5000 are the best tires I've ever had in over 40 years of cycling. They're fast, light, excellent grip, and relatively robust. Another marginal upgrade is latex inner tubes. They are slightly smoother riding and faster (lower rolling resistance).
 
Some tire tests have shown wider tires are just as fast on smooth surfaces and are faster on rough surfaces. I like the smooth ride of the 32s at 57#, and I’m keeping up fine with the narrow tire folks.
 
If you're running wider tires at 100psi, it's way too much. That was conventional wisdom in the 70's/80's racing with 19mm silks and has subsequently been proven to be really wrong. I was one of those peeps back then. Use some of the weight inflation tables published by Conti and others. Think of the rolling resistance of a solid steel tire and you get to why a softer tire is actually faster.
 
The Zipp wheel calculator recommended 52 front 55 rear for my rider/bike combined weight and the Rene Herse calculator 57 for both. I’m running 57 amd am quite happy with the results.
 
The Silca tire pressure guide is also quite good: https://silca.cc/pages/sppc-form
Tire pressure depends on several factors: total weight, wheel size & width, surface type (smooth to rough), among others.

The old school approach of 20mm tires at 160 PSI actually works well on a billiard smooth indoor track. But real-world pavement isn't that smooth so lower pressures roll smoother and faster. How much lower, depends on the above factors.
 
MRC01 said:
Conti GP5000 are the best tires I've ever had in over 40 years of cycling. They're fast, light, excellent grip, and relatively robust. Another marginal upgrade is latex inner tubes. They are slightly smoother riding and faster (lower rolling resistance).
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Hmm... any particular recommendations? Are they as durable as standard tubes?
 
No they are not, but they are still pretty good. I stopped using latex, but used them for a few years. Supposed to save a few percent in rolling resistance but I didn’t notice.
 
Hang 4 said:
If you're running wider tires at 100psi, it's way too much. That was conventional wisdom in the 70's/80's racing with 19mm silks and has subsequently been proven to be really wrong. I was one of those peeps back then. Use some of the weight inflation tables published by Conti and others. Think of the rolling resistance of a solid steel tire and you get to why a softer tire is actually faster.
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Agree completely. A train on steel tracks yes. A train on gravel is going nowhere.
 
Sac Arrow said:
Hmm... any particular recommendations? Are they as durable as standard tubes?
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I find latex to have comparable durability. In fact, I get fewer flats than on standard butyl. The only drawback is that latex is more permeable, so it leaks down slowly, about 10-15% per day. You need to pump the tires for every ride. That's not a drag for me because I already did that even with butyl since tire pressures are such a critical aspect of performance.
There are many options, but I have been happy with Vittoria: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B084CXNQ35

The difference is small, less than the difference that good tires makes. But I do notice it, on the road bike and on the tandem. Latex is more elastic than butyl, so the difference is both comfort and speed.
 
The Zipp wheel calculator recommended 52 front 55 rear for my rider/bike combined weight and the Rene Herse calculator shows 57 F/R. I’m running 57 and am very happy with the results, the bike is very smooth and speed is consistent with the other quicker club riders.
 
I've been using latex exclusively for around 12 years on my road bike. I'll be switching to road tubeless before the end of the year. The latex tend to be slightly lighter, and they roll better than butyl tubes. I also throw some sealant in them (so there goes the weight advantage...), which seems to help with flats.

I own around 50 mountain bikes (all tubeless) and several road bikes. Several years ago, manufacturers started getting away from weight minimization in favor of strength for MTBs. Most of my aluminum trail bikes weigh in at around 35 lbs, and I rarely have a customer complain. The carbon trail bikes tend to run around 30-32 lbs, partially due to the frame and partially due to the nicer component sets that tend to come on them. My lightest bike (my personal one) is 28 lbs total, which is light for a trail or higher rated bike. Of course, it comes with a matching price tag. I've been finding a lot of people prefer having a bit more travel (even if they don't use it!) and don't mind the weight penalty. The XC racers tend to be the real weight weenies.
 
MonkeyClaw said:
I've been using latex exclusively for around 12 years on my road bike. I'll be switching to road tubeless before the end of the year. The latex tend to be slightly lighter, and they roll better than butyl tubes. I also throw some sealant in them (so there goes the weight advantage...), which seems to help with flats.
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[edit: for road bikes] Why switch to tubeless? There's no advantage in weight, comfort or rolling resistance. And the puncture protection is marginal and overrated. Just last weekend on my ride, I helped a cyclist who punctured her tubeless tires with sealant spraying out not sealing the tiny hole. And it introduces more maintenance hassles, as you have to remove the tires to clean out & replace the sealant every 6 months.

For MTB, tubeless is great. It enables you to run super low pressures for better traction without getting flats. But for road cycling, it seems like a solution in search of a problem.

MonkeyClaw said:
... I own around 50 mountain bikes (all tubeless) and several road bikes. Several years ago, manufacturers started getting away from weight minimization in favor of strength for MTBs. Most of my aluminum trail bikes weigh in at around 35 lbs, and I rarely have a customer complain. The carbon trail bikes tend to run around 30-32 lbs, partially due to the frame and partially due to the nicer component sets that tend to come on them. My lightest bike (my personal one) is 28 lbs total, which is light for a trail or higher rated bike. Of course, it comes with a matching price tag. I've been finding a lot of people prefer having a bit more travel (even if they don't use it!) and don't mind the weight penalty. The XC racers tend to be the real weight weenies.
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My MTB is a full suspension, all carbon (frame and wheels) SRAM XX1 and weighs 25 lbs. with pedals ready to ride. It's about 10 years old and shows battle scars from ultra endurance events and thousands of miles but still runs like new. I love this bike since it does just about everything from technical downhills, to steep long climbs, and ultra endurance rides like OTGG and WRIAD. This kind of "XC/Enduro" bike seems less popular every year and I don't know why. For off-road riding, it's one bike for virtually all conditions.
 
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You know, this has been a great thread. It's been a few years since I've read up on tires, been running my 25s at 95 psi. I'm thinking I'm going to buy 2 28 5000s and run at a lower pressure. My only concern is I'm riding an older Serotta titanium bike, on the rear I'd be fine with a 32X 700 but on the front it looks like I have about an 1/8 of an inch clearance on each side. I'm thinking the 28 will squeeze in there with out any issue, but I doubt a 32 would fit. I'm hoping the 28 with lower pressure will give a better ride, the road I ride as a gateway road is pretty rough right now, it would be nice to have something to smooth out the bumps a little better.
 
Depending on your total weight and pavement conditions, you should be able to run lower pressures on those 25 tires. I run 700x25 (Conti 5000) on my road bike, 87 PSI front 90 PSI rear. Total weight me+bike+water+gear = 210 lbs. That's a bit lower than what Silca recommends, but it works. Those recommendations are estimates. The difference of 85 to 90 and 90 to 95, is small but noticeable.
 
MRC01 said:
[edit: for road bikes] Why switch to tubeless? There's no advantage in weight, comfort or rolling resistance. And the puncture protection is marginal and overrated. Just last weekend on my ride, I helped a cyclist who punctured her tubeless tires with sealant spraying out not sealing the tiny hole. And it introduces more maintenance hassles, as you have to remove the tires to clean out & replace the sealant every 6 months.

For MTB, tubeless is great. It enables you to run super low pressures for better traction without getting flats. But for road cycling, it seems like a solution in search of a problem.


My MTB is a full suspension, all carbon (frame and wheels) SRAM XX1 and weighs 25 lbs. with pedals ready to ride. It's about 10 years old and shows battle scars from ultra endurance events and thousands of miles but still runs like new. I love this bike since it does just about everything from technical downhills, to steep long climbs, and ultra endurance rides like OTGG and WRIAD. This kind of "XC/Enduro" bike seems less popular every year and I don't know why. For off-road riding, it's one bike for virtually all conditions.
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Not to mention pinch flats common to MTB-ers when traversing rocks/roots or similar which are less of an issue when tubeless. I think my full suspension 2014 aluminum XC bike is around 29lbs with pedals. I could shave a few pounds with a newer carbon wheelsets or going to a better 1X drivetrain, but I doubt I'd notice a 1-2lbs reduction with as inconsistent as my rides are.
 
PaulS said:
You know, this has been a great thread. It's been a few years since I've read up on tires, been running my 25s at 95 psi. I'm thinking I'm going to buy 2 28 5000s and run at a lower pressure. My only concern is I'm riding an older Serotta titanium bike, on the rear I'd be fine with a 32X 700 but on the front it looks like I have about an 1/8 of an inch clearance on each side. I'm thinking the 28 will squeeze in there with out any issue, but I doubt a 32 would fit. I'm hoping the 28 with lower pressure will give a better ride, the road I ride as a gateway road is pretty rough right now, it would be nice to have something to smooth out the bumps a little better.
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What about 30's? I'm running 30's and I'm pretty happy with them. At some point bigger will incur a weight penalty and without pulling up the specs, I suspect it is past the 30 mark.
 
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