The New 69-Year Old airplane

Just curious what kind of mags/sparkplugs you have. If you have the old style mags and the old style spark plugs with the leads that look like they are off a tractor your handheld will be useless with all the ignition noise.

However if it's been updated to the newer style harness and plugs and everything is properly grounded you shouldn't have a problem.
 
Rotor&Wing said:
Just curious what kind of mags/sparkplugs you have. If you have the old style mags and the old style spark plugs with the leads that look like they are off a tractor your handheld will be useless with all the ignition noise.

However if it's been updated to the newer style harness and plugs and everything is properly grounded you shouldn't have a problem.
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The previous owner installed shielded ignition wires and used a handheld (it and a Magellen GPS came with the airplane).

If I carry a handheld, I'll need about 5 mile range -- just far enough to call MGW or CKB tower.
 
dmccormack said:
The previous owner installed shielded ignition wires and used a handheld (it and a Magellen GPS came with the airplane).

If I carry a handheld, I'll need about 5 mile range -- just far enough to call MGW or CKB tower.
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Good, you're ahead of the game. My first plane was a 8A Luscumbe with a Continental A65 with Case magnetos. Yep, that Case, the tractor company.

Pain in the ass but most Case dealers had parts.:smile:
 
bullwinkle said:
Radio is a safety issue. I'd have one. I'm sure there will be howls of protest about me saying this.
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This is easily fixed, just fly around your home airport so much that everyone expect you to be flying with no radio. They will let each other know you are there and be looking for you better than if you had a radio. Of course you will be looking for them as well.

Brian
 
tonycondon said:
i dont think it is inherently dangerous to fly radio free. in fact i enjoy it quite a bit. I do think that adding a radio has the potential to enhance safety of flight, but it also has the potential to detract from safety of flight.

I installed a radio in my glider this spring, and will do the same with the new glider next year.
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At least where I fly a radio in a glider is used a lot differently than a radio in a power plane. I used to instruct at the local airport that had 3 champs each flying about 50 hrs per month. This ment there was a no radio champ in the pattern much of the time. I did over 300 hrs of instruction in no radio champs.

In cross country glider flying the radio is used as much as an information tool than it is used as a safety tool. The kind of cross country flying I do is as much a social event as the BBQ afterwards. 3 or 4 of us team fly together sharing thermals and giving postion reports to each other.

Brian
CFIIG/ASEL
HP16T
 
brcase said:
At least where I fly a radio in a glider is used a lot differently than a radio in a power plane. I used to instruct at the local airport that had 3 champs each flying about 50 hrs per month. This ment there was a no radio champ in the pattern much of the time. I did over 300 hrs of instruction in no radio champs.

In cross country glider flying the radio is used as much as an information tool than it is used as a safety tool. The kind of cross country flying I do is as much a social event as the BBQ afterwards. 3 or 4 of us team fly together sharing thermals and giving postion reports to each other.

Brian
CFIIG/ASEL
HP16T
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I do my fair share of gabbing on 123.3 too, but I also use the radio to coordinate with the crew on cross countries and communicate with the towplane and airport in general. the standard soaring signals are great but with my little glider behind a 182 or 185 down here in low to medium Denisty Altitude Land, the towpilot just isnt going to notice a slow down signal.

Also very helpful at the busy mixed use airports (my last club) when you have to cut inside of the 172's B-52 like pattern.

And once I get my transponder installed the radio will be very helpful for talking to approach and getting ID'd.
 
Radio is a tool. If you have it, you might have a situation where it would be good to use. If you don't, then you can't use it. No reason not to have a good handheld in there. If the 2 lbs is really a problem, you probably want to look at your W&B a little more closely. ;)

I'd agree not to pollute the panel with a radio install, though, just keep it to a good handheld. That said, N34 has a Garmin 430 in it, they just hide it for shows.
 
Rotor&Wing said:
I thought this was a non electric airplane? Why screw it up with a freakin' radio?

Set the altimeter prior to takeoff, that's it. You're not going fast nor very far. The altimeter is more for CAR compliance than anything useful in these old airplanes.

FWIW a friend of mine has a PA-11 without electrics. He uses a pair of old King radios as chocks. :D
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My Porterfield is similarly equipped (no electrics if you don't count the stupid ELT) but I do have a portable radio and intercom. The radio is a must since I fly from a controlled field but it's nice to be able to announce my position and monitor other traffic when landing at busy uncontrolled strips even though my slow speed makes spotting other planes a lot easier (they're almost always in front of me!).

And although it's pace is pretty sedate and it's range is pretty limited, it can still stay aloft for almost 3 hours, during which you can encounter enough of a barometric pressure change to matter.
 
Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe said:
Yea - not hard to get to the manufactures suggested maximum load...
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No kidding. The useful load in my Porterfield is 400 lbs and it carries 13 gallons (80 lbs) of fuel when full. When I took a checkride in it the DE "under-reported" his personal MGW and we flew with only a half load of fuel. I've often wondered if I could get the MGW raised a hundred pounds to 1320 since that's the MGW when it's on floats. Maybe if I had the engine upgraded from 65 to 75 HP?

Of course the fact that the cabin is pretty tight for anyone over 5' 10" and/or 160 lbs makes overloading somewhat impractical.
 
Ted DuPuis said:
I'd agree not to pollute the panel with a radio install, though, just keep it to a good handheld. That said, N34 has a Garmin 430 in it, they just hide it for shows.
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To preserve the original appearance I installed the antenna for the handheld comm inside the tailcone, just behind the rear seat. That limits the range a little but not enough to matter.
 
Ted DuPuis said:
I'd agree not to pollute the panel with a radio install, though, just keep it to a good handheld. That said, N34 has a Garmin 430 in it, they just hide it for shows.
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A panel mount would be tough -- there's no electric system to draw from.

The few folks that want radios and GPS and the like "mounted" use a car battery.

That's simply far too complicated for the type flying I plan on doing with this airplane...
 
gismo said:
To preserve the original appearance I installed the antenna for the handheld comm inside the tailcone, just behind the rear seat. That limits the range a little but not enough to matter.
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That's a good option with these fabric birds -- not much to block signal back there.
 
Rotor&Wing said:
Good, you're ahead of the game. My first plane was a 8A Luscumbe with a Continental A65 with Case magnetos. Yep, that Case, the tractor company.

Pain in the ass but most Case dealers had parts.:smile:
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My A65 still has those Case mags. 63 years old and still producing a hot spark. And radio noise.


Dan
 
Winds were semi-calm so went for some dual today -- finally!

Janet was able to come with me today to finally see the new baby -- I also used her help in holding the tail as I prop-started (plus chocks for both main wheels).

On the second throw the engine sputtered and gave me plenty of time to walk around the strut and get into the cabin and hold the brakes as it idled. Hand-propping is fairly easy as long as the engine is primed.

Winds were 110 @ 6 or so -- not too bad for rwy 8. My first tailwheel takeoff wasn't quite as bad as I expected, but I still hadn't figured out where to place my feet on these %$##$ heel brake/rudder pedal combos.

We climbed to somewhere near pattern altitude and then did a pass over the grass parallel runway looking for obvious ruts, etc. It looked good, so next time around would be my first tailwheel landing. :eek:

The pattern is MUCH tighter and smaller and lower than what I'm used to (Haven't flown an airplane less than 200 HP in over a year -- memories of the Skipper have receded, thankfully!). I turned base to final in a nice gentle slipping arc, but felt like we were approaching very flat.

The first touchdown was a bit tail low but not too bad, and actually straight. I kept the wing low and straight with rudder by instinct, not any conscious thought, but I'm glad at least something carried over from tricycle airplanes!

The second takeoff was better, and the third was straight down the runway. I figured I could keep my heels on the floor and still not be placing any pressure on the heel brakes, and it was much easier to maintain fine control over the rudder.

Landings were still straight, despite the wind shifting further right and steadying a bit at 8 or so. I was keeping the pitch angle a little too high and realized that I'm just used to tricycle gear airplanes where the touchdown angle is a nose-high, whereas stall/touchdown attitude in this airplane is the regular rolling-around ground attitude (duh).

Will demonstrated and approach and landing to give me the overall sight picture and that helped.

It shouldn't take too long before I'm flying my own airplane! What a great feeling. :D
 
dmccormack said:
Janet was able to come with me today to finally see the new baby -- I also used her help in holding the tail as I prop-started (plus chocks for both main wheels).
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Whenever possible I tie the tail to something relatively immobile such as a signpost or fence post. Tiedown rings or trailer hitches on cars work well also. I carry a 50 ft length of 1/4" poly line in the plane for this purpose. It's extremely like that the plane will jump over the chocks if the throttle is accidentally advanced and I really doubt you or your wife could hold the tail then. Tying the tail increases your safety and protects the airplane.

Winds were 110 @ 6 or so -- not too bad for rwy 8. My first tailwheel takeoff wasn't quite as bad as I expected, but I still hadn't figured out where to place my feet on these %$##$ heel brake/rudder pedal combos.
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Heel brakes are just plain difficult to use but the good news is the only time you need them is when doing a runnup or when trying to make a tight turn and don't have enough speed to swing the tail with inertia.

We climbed to somewhere near pattern altitude and then did a pass over the grass parallel runway looking for obvious ruts, etc. It looked good, so next time around would be my first tailwheel landing. :eek:

The pattern is MUCH tighter and smaller and lower than what I'm used to (Haven't flown an airplane less than 200 HP in over a year -- memories of the Skipper have receded, thankfully!). I turned base to final in a nice gentle slipping arc, but felt like we were approaching very flat.
Click to expand...
Even with the power fully off, landing a floater like a Champ (or my Porterfield) involves a much shallower approach than I like so I often fly faster than 1.3 Vso and slip the last 100 ft of descent to scrub the speed. IMO it's good to learn this techinque as it works well for short obstructed approaches as well as when making an emergency landing. In an airplane that has no visibility over the nose it also lets you see what's on the runway until you flare.

The first touchdown was a bit tail low but not too bad, and actually straight. I kept the wing low and straight with rudder by instinct, not any conscious thought, but I'm glad at least something carried over from tricycle airplanes!
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Apparently someone taught you the proper way to land a tricycle (tail low and aligned with the runway). Good for you!

The second takeoff was better, and the third was straight down the runway. I figured I could keep my heels on the floor and still not be placing any pressure on the heel brakes, and it was much easier to maintain fine control over the rudder.
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Yup, forget the brakes. If you need the brakes for control in a Champ you're already in way too much trouble and the brakes probably won't save you.

Were you able to sense the left yawing moment caused by the gyroscopic action of the prop when you lifted the tail? In a Champ this effect is pretty mild but it's there. In something that spins a metal prop 2700 RPM (or a monster diameter prop at a slower speed) that effect can be startling so it's a good idea to recognize it now.

Landings were still straight, despite the wind shifting further right and steadying a bit at 8 or so. I was keeping the pitch angle a little too high and realized that I'm just used to tricycle gear airplanes where the touchdown angle is a nose-high, whereas stall/touchdown attitude in this airplane is the regular rolling-around ground attitude (duh).

Will demonstrated and approach and landing to give me the overall sight picture and that helped.
Click to expand...

Try to memorize the sight picture when you're sitting on the ground, looking over the nose as well as off to the side. This is what it should look like at touchdown. See if you can locate something on the plane that lines up with the horizon in the 3 pt attitude on the ground and make sure you are sitting back in the seat with your head up then and when you're landing.

It shouldn't take too long before I'm flying my own airplane! What a great feeling. :D
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Nothing much like it:D:D:D.
 
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gismo said:
Whenever possible I tie the tail to something relatively immobile such as a signpost or fence post. Tiedown rings or trailer hitches on cars work well also. I carry a 50 ft length of 1/4" poly line in the plane for this purpose. It's extremely like that the plane will jump over the chocks if the throttle is accidentally advanced and I really doubt you or your wife could hold the tail then. Tying the tail increases your safety and protects the airplane.
Click to expand...

I'm in a temporary hangar this week (KVVS is closed -- runway paving). I bought a steel rebar today at Lowes to pound into the ground in front of my hangar for the tiedown (I don't trust the hangar walls to hold up much).

I also found some heavy-duty ground anchors at Tractor Supply -- those will go in my tiedown kit.

gismo said:
Heel brakes are just plain difficult to use but the good news is the only time you need them is when doing a runnup or when trying to make a tight turn and don't have enough speed to swing the tail with inertia.
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I started getting the knack after taxiing a while and letting my heels slide along the floorboard as needed -- though brakes are used sparingly, it's also good to know where they are. I was overly cautious about inadvertantly applying brake during t/o roll, but I needn't have worried -- it takes effort to depress them!

gismo said:
Even with the power fully off, landing a floater like a Champ (or my Porterfield) involves a much shallower approach than I like so I often fly faster than 1.3 Vso and slip the last 100 ft of descent to scrub the speed. IMO it's good to learn this techinque as it works well for short obstructed approaches as well as when making an emergency landing. In an airplane that has no visibility over the nose it also lets you see what's on the runway until you flare.
Click to expand...

Exactly right -- the approach at 60 MPH was so flat, it was a bit distracting (gee, those trees are close!)

gismo said:
Apparently someone taught you the proper way to land a tricycle (tail low and aligned with the runway). Good for you!
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And I've tried to instill in students -- but flying a nosedragger, it's easy to get away with the 3 point landing cuz it feels smooth. Yeah -- this time.

gismo said:
Were you able to sense the left yawing moment caused by the gyroscopic action of the prop when you lifted the tail? In a Champ this effect is pretty mild but it's there. In something that spins a metal prop 2700 RPM (or a monster diameter prop at a slower speed) that effect can be startling so it's a good idea to recognize it now.
Click to expand...

Yes, though it was mild. The tail comes up on its own fairly sedately, so the gyroscopic effect isn't pronounced.


gismo said:
Try to memorize the sight picture when you're sitting on the ground, looking over the nose as well as off to the side. This is what it should look like at touchdown. See if you can locate something on the plane that lines up with the horizon in the 3 pt attitude on the ground and make sure you are sitting back in the seat with your head up then and when you're landing.
Click to expand...

Good tip! I don't think I consciously picked a specific point on the cowl or strut, and that will help!
 
but flying a nosedragger, it's easy to get away with the 3 point landing cuz it feels smooth.
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Not in a Grumman or Mooney. Land on the mains or don't land. :thumbsup:
 
dmccormack said:
Winds were semi-calm so went for some dual today -- finally!
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When I was getting kicked around in the wind on Sat and Sunday I was thinking it was a bad weekend for you to be playing with your new taildrager. Glad you got some flying in today. That is a fun little plane you have. Enjoy!
 
dmccormack said:
Winds were semi-calm so went for some dual today -- finally!

Janet was able to come with me today to finally see the new baby -- I also used her help in holding the tail as I prop-started (plus chocks for both main wheels).

On the second throw the engine sputtered and gave me plenty of time to walk around the strut and get into the cabin and hold the brakes as it idled. Hand-propping is fairly easy as long as the engine is primed.
Click to expand...

I found this video on hand propping interesting for the clip at the begining with someone trying to hold back a Cessana 170 (I think)...

http://www.aviationsafetyvideos.com/asv/hp/hp.html
 
A few more pics taken yesterday (after a thorough bath):
 

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