The Jay by AOPA

[ryoung99]

Has anyone seen one of these yet? I have seen the video's from Sun and Fun and it appears to have some value (not sure $2400 worth). I am most surprised that so many from the industry have collaborated on the project.

Oh yea, I just ordered one so I will get to see very soon if it has value. What attracted me is the scenario based training. Typically I have not been a fan of simulators, but I am hopeful that this unit will be the revolutionary home simulator that many have been waiting for.

Thanks,
Rick

 

[Jayhawk]

Looks like they're basically marketing Prepar3d with a yoke and throttle? Stock FSX with your own choice of stick, Track IR, and some addons would probably be cheaper, with the same simulation fidelity (at work, so can't see the actual price). IIRC Prepar3d had a few improvements over FSX stock, but the license price was outrageous. Been pretty happy with my vanilla version of FSX, never saw a reason to upgrade it to Prepar3d.

EDIT: $2400's ridiculous for that. Taking my setup for example, $40 for FSX, $150 for a Saitek X52, $300 for Track IR, and around $200 for aircraft and scenery addons. Arguably better fidelity than AOPA's setup because of Track IR, and around $1800 cheaper otherwise for the same sim. Even including the cost of the computer to run it we're still looking at $800 less than they're charging.

 

[poadeleted21]

Looks like they're basically marketing Prepar3d with a yoke and throttle? Stock FSX with your own choice of stick, Track IR, and some addons would probably be cheaper, with the same simulation fidelity (at work, so can't see the actual price). IIRC Prepar3d had a few improvements over FSX stock, but the license price was outrageous. Been pretty happy with my vanilla version of FSX, never saw a reason to upgrade it to Prepar3d.

EDIT: $2400's ridiculous for that. Taking my setup for example, $40 for FSX, $150 for a Saitek X52, $300 for Track IR, and around $200 for aircraft and scenery addons. Arguably better fidelity than AOPA's setup because of Track IR, and around $1800 cheaper otherwise for the same sim. Even including the cost of the computer to run it we're still looking at $800 less than they're charging.

comes with a 27" LCD (1920 x 1080 pixels) too. Doesn't look like a bad deal for the hardware + software to me. Especially with their "scenario" based stuff.

 

[Jayhawk]

comes with a 27" LCD (1920 x 1080 pixels) too. Doesn't look like a bad deal for the hardware + software to me. Especially with their "scenario" based stuff.

Depends on the scenario; it's pretty easy in FSX to set up a saved scenario for about any situation you could ask for. I can't see that adding to the price, unless they're adding features to Prepar3d for the scenarios.

 

[KeithASanford]

I have X plane 9, CH Products yoke and peddles, Saitek Pro flight TPM and a 32 inch Toshiba flat screen. Total investment = $520.00. Trackir 5 sells for $135.00 on Amazon. I'm still $1825.00 below the $2400.00 price. Can I buy just the software and scenarios?

 

[poadeleted21]

Depends on the scenario; it's pretty easy in FSX to set up a saved scenario for about any situation you could ask for. I can't see that adding to the price, unless they're adding features to Prepar3d for the scenarios.

They have a "scenario network" that sort of a an online collaboration type thing. You can re-enact NTSB scenarios etc.. use training scenarios of various flight schools etc..

Looks like a decent PC, with a nice big monitor, quality software, quality controls. If you want a dedicated Flight Sim, it doesn't seem like the price is out of this world.

 

[Jayhawk]

They have a "scenario network" that sort of a an online collaboration type thing. You can re-enact NTSB scenarios etc.. use training scenarios of various flight schools etc..

Looks like a decent PC, with a nice big monitor, quality software, quality controls. If you want a dedicated Flight Sim, it doesn't seem like the price is out of this world.

Eh, guess I'm more a fan of having more control over your setup when it comes to simming. It will be cheaper to purchase everything individually instead of the AOPA package, too. Part of the cost seems to be for the Prepar3d license in place of FSX, when they're both essentially the same sim. I like the idea of the scenario network, even more so if they offer individual scenarios for sale to outside FSX users. Even so, with less than an hour of work, you can create almost any scenario you could think of in vanilla FSX. Just not seeing anything on the feature list that isn't already available to an FSX user at a much lower cost.

As far as the training scenarios go, FSX includes a great simulated flight school that Rod Machado "teaches". It's about as good as it gets in a sim for teaching you the basics.

 

[Fly-Fla]

They had several of them set up in the AOPA tent at Sun N Fun. There was a line to use them so I just glanced at them but it looked nice. The hardware looked more substantial than the home stuff I have for XPlane. The graphics also looked good from what little I saw.

 

[ryoung99]

They have a "scenario network" that sort of a an online collaboration type thing. You can re-enact NTSB scenarios etc.. use training scenarios of various flight schools etc..

Looks like a decent PC, with a nice big monitor, quality software, quality controls. If you want a dedicated Flight Sim, it doesn't seem like the price is out of this world.

I guess I will let everyone know how it turns out, mine will be here on 4/26 per the UPS email I received today. If you are in the Sacramento area, you would be welcome to stop by and take a look once it is set up.

Obviously, I bit the bait, but it is the scenario based training that appealed to me. As a low time pilot (who is buying into my first airplane right now), getting experience at different scenarios is important to me. The more skills I can practice at this fixed cost worked for me, the real question is how with the AOPA deliver on their committment. I have all the confidence in the world with RedBirds ability to put a quality product on the table (no pun intended).

Now the real question is, when should I tell my wife I just dropped $3k on this thing? She always says we cannot spend too much on safety, so I know my opening line will have that word included.

Rick

 

[chartbundle]

I've been pretty happy with my touch screen system with SimAvio and X-Plane. I'd guess I'm at about $1500... So they offer a bigger screen, no tactile or touch screen controls, the Redbird yoke(I find the TD2 yoke absolutely horrible, not sure if this one is the same) I think I'll stick to my system.

 

[ryoung99]

We received The Jay today, I really like it, in the past when I have tried sims the yoke was way to touchy, I found this one to be very realistic.

The only issue I had was using the keyboard for the rudder, I really struggled on the ground. In a couple hours I did 5 landings at various Sacramento airports (Colusa, Yuba, Yuba, Van Dyke, Cameron Park) My favorite part was the fact I can couple it with my iPad and do the flights on ForeFlight as well. When my 10 year old daughter was flying we did a power out scenario, successfully,, although at about 1500 AGL she allied your plane and stepped aside to let me bring it down. I need to dig out my 172 POH, and see if it flys by the numbers.

The only scenario right now is for cross wind take offs, but without rudder pedals was tough (so I gave up).

 

[jesse]

They don't give you rudder pedals for that price?!

 

[Volair_Sim]

I think one of the advantages that JAY has is that the yoke has more travel, especially in pitch. Flight sims are notoriously sensitive in pitch axis (especially FSX/P3D) so having a yoke with more travel makes the whole sim flight experience much more rewarding and realistic.

 

[jeffvw]

Hello all. I’m actually the guy responsible for those Jay scenarios, so I’d be happy to weigh in on this thread.

* The Jay is not the least expensive way to get a sim in your home. That’s not it’s purpose. The design was meant to be robust enough for a flight school or your seven-year-old, set up in minutes, and boot up to flight right after you turn in on. Once you add up the cost of making that, with the internal equipment it has, and the cost of P3D, it’s a $2490 product. The margin is surprisingly low. If we made thousands of them a year, like Saitek does with its controls, we could make it cheaper. But that’s just not the case. There are plenty of pilots who simply don’t have the savvy or patience to build a good system on their own. The Jay is a good option for them.

* The scenarios are the big differentiator. Just to be clear: these are not just saved flights. These are built on the mission engine from FSX. So they are like a do-you-own adventure. What you do changes what happens and it won’t play out the same every time. They can take weeks to create. The team I have creating them are mostly former Microsoft FSX staff.

* One poster said there is only one right now. There are actually nine (13 if you include the “how-to” ones). If the Jay is connected to the internet, those should have downloaded automatically. The website, my-jay.com, still only shows one, but the full version should go live by 6/5/13. With that, new scenarios should come out about 3-6 per month, at least half of which will be free downloads. Some of those have demo versions of high-end aircraft from Carenado and A2A, as well as scenery from Orbx.

* It doesn’t come with a rudder, but I think any serious pilot will want one. Simple CH pedals or equivalent are plug and play. Redbird makes some high-end ones that are basically the build quality of the professional sim. You can actually just apply rudder pressure with them rather than rudder movement.

* And to the question unasked: No, you can’t get just the scenarios without the Jay. I’d love to do that, but it gets pretty complex as we’re using some custom items and building for P3D. They wouldn’t work in FSX without serious tweaking, changing our licensing of these add-ons, and a few other things. That’s not saying we aren’t looking at options. But it’s not on the product map just yet.

Feel free to contact me via this thread or directly with questions.

Best,

Jeff Van West
Redbird Flight Simulations
Redbird Media

 

[wabower]

Jeff,

Capt. Theresin and I enjoyed our time at your plant last week. Stephen did a good job showing us around and discussing the options for the club's purchase that included the TD-2 and the Jay.

I've previously mentioned the mountain flight scenario and the freeze to review the four options, along with the unfavorable results when I chose a climb into IFR and then neglected to climb as quickly as needed to clear the peak. I found the freeze to be a very effective method of focusing the student's attention to the predicament in which he had placed himself (although my excuse is that I was yakking with the other guys and not paying attention to the unfolding drama) but others have questioned that methodology. I'd be interested in your collective thinking about how all that came about.

As a guy who has been using desk-top sims for IFR training for many years and spent a decade as an IP/TCE at SFI's 142 school at DFW, it's clear to me that you guys are on the right track insofar as helping pilots develop thinking skills as well as flying skills.

Wayne

Hello all. I’m actually the guy responsible for those Jay scenarios, so I’d be happy to weigh in on this thread.

* The Jay is not the least expensive way to get a sim in your home. That’s not it’s purpose. The design was meant to be robust enough for a flight school or your seven-year-old, set up in minutes, and boot up to flight right after you turn in on. Once you add up the cost of making that, with the internal equipment it has, and the cost of P3D, it’s a $2490 product. The margin is surprisingly low. If we made thousands of them a year, like Saitek does with its controls, we could make it cheaper. But that’s just not the case. There are plenty of pilots who simply don’t have the savvy or patience to build a good system on their own. The Jay is a good option for them.

* The scenarios are the big differentiator. Just to be clear: these are not just saved flights. These are built on the mission engine from FSX. So they are like a do-you-own adventure. What you do changes what happens and it won’t play out the same every time. They can take weeks to create. The team I have creating them are mostly former Microsoft FSX staff.

* One poster said there is only one right now. There are actually nine (13 if you include the “how-to” ones). If the Jay is connected to the internet, those should have downloaded automatically. The website, my-jay.com, still only shows one, but the full version should go live by 6/5/13. With that, new scenarios should come out about 3-6 per month, at least half of which will be free downloads. Some of those have demo versions of high-end aircraft from Carenado and A2A, as well as scenery from Orbx.

* It doesn’t come with a rudder, but I think any serious pilot will want one. Simple CH pedals or equivalent are plug and play. Redbird makes some high-end ones that are basically the build quality of the professional sim. You can actually just apply rudder pressure with them rather than rudder movement.

* And to the question unasked: No, you can’t get just the scenarios without the Jay. I’d love to do that, but it gets pretty complex as we’re using some custom items and building for P3D. They wouldn’t work in FSX without serious tweaking, changing our licensing of these add-ons, and a few other things. That’s not saying we aren’t looking at options. But it’s not on the product map just yet.

Feel free to contact me via this thread or directly with questions.

Best,

Jeff Van West
Redbird Flight Simulations
Redbird Media

 

[jeffvw]

Jeff,
I've previously mentioned the mountain flight scenario and the freeze to review the four options ... I'd be interested in your collective thinking about how all that came about.
Wayne

Wayne:

Usually don't want to freeze the simulation in the scenarios because we can't unfreeze it automatically. The user can pause it an any time though.

—Jeff

 

[wabower]

I didn't do it (at least intentionally) and thought it did it.

Wayne:

Usually don't want to freeze the simulation in the scenarios because we can't unfreeze it automatically. The user can pause it an any time though.

—Jeff

 

[skynewbie]

I am looking at getting one but wanted to find out if it helps with PPL or better for instrument training? I may hold off until I have my private and use it for instrument approaches. My Saitek yoke on current sim is way too touchy and not effective for doing training on my FSX sim.

 

[JimNtexas]

Is there such a thing as a GA simulator that has anything approaching the pitch and roll feel of a real stick or yoke?

I've flown several of the Redbirds at Skyport, and while they are great for practicing holding patterns and instrument approaches, they are IMHO worthless or negative for any flight regime within the white arc, unless perhaps you're simulating an Airbus.

There's no feedback from the stick/yoke at all, just springs. I also get the feeling that the A/D conversion of roll and pitch input to the flight model is both course and slow.

I suppose a stick or yoke simulation that felt like an airplane might double or triple the price of the sim, but it sure would be nice.

 

[av8r4jc]

AOPA Redbird JAY for sale...

I have an AOPA Jay for sale with the Saitek (Cessna) rudder pedals and the WiFi connector. I have had the Jay for a year now and used it primarily for Instrument training. I now have my rating and soon will be heading to the mission field as a pilot/mechanic. I will not be needing this great Sim overseas, so I would like to sell it now while it is in like new condition. The downloadable scenarios have been quite fun! This months allows you to fly a custom Ag to scoop water and extinguish a forest fire!

$2,200 firm including shipping to anywhere in the lower 48. That is over $500 savings off of a new system.