The FBO asked me: "Why are pilots so cheap"

paflyer said:
That's BS. They pay one premium for the whole year based on the overall risk.
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They may pay one premium based on overall risk but if a Navajo needed a new prop due to negligence vs a Cheyenne the insurance company would pay out a high $ amount and thus the premium would increase as a result of that, more so than a Navajo.

Really, the facility fees charged by small to medium FBOs (not monopoly Signatures or Atlantics), are substantially smaller for a single-engine piston than it costs to provide services for. My FBO charges a $10 facility fee for single-engines that don't take fuel (waivable with 7 gallons). This allows them access to all services including crew cars that the full-service FBO has to offer. It costs significantly more than that in man-power just to chock it and sign the customer in.

bluesideup said:
FBOs don't seem to understand that they are leeching off Pilots and Taxpayers.

All the FBOs on the Public airports, that I know of, did not build the airports, they just paid politicians enough to make use of them, and to abuse the pilots.

Their services, to most PP, are very similar to Entertainers, Actors..., that provide no Real services, you could pack them all in and send them to China and all the Real, productive, people would be better off.

A good project for some of the pilot orgs. is to have the Congress pass a law and set aside at least 50% of the spaces they get for transient. I do not want / need their services, I just want to land anywhere there is Public airport without getting harassed.
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FBOs are NOT leeching off taxpayers. We are taxpayers. We pay property tax, we pay ground lease rates to the government. We pay sales tax and use tax and fuel tax. Saying that we "leech" off of taxpayers is absurd. We pay PROPERTY tax on structures sitting on ground we DO NOT own. Ground that can be TAKEN at the end of a lease term if the government so chooses.

Not every fee you pay goes to the FBO. Just because an FBO charges a parking fee does not mean that the city does not take the majority of that collected fee for themselves.


I get it, no one likes fees. But if majority of clients didn't demand a high level of service and facilities we could just be a port-a-potty in the middle of nowhere. The customer dictates that based on their feedback both with their mouth and their feet. If you don't want to pay high fees don't go to Scottsdale, Minneapolis St. Paul, or Orange County. Go to Goodyear, Anoka, or Oxnard.
 
Z06_Mir said:
I get it, no one likes fees. But if majority of clients didn't demand a high level of service and facilities we could just be a port-a-potty in the middle of nowhere. The customer dictates that based on their feedback both with their mouth and their feet. If you don't want to pay high fees don't go to Scottsdale, Minneapolis St. Paul, or Orange County. Go to Goodyear, Anoka, or Oxnard.
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I'm going to take a wild guess and suggest that your "clients" aren't the average spam can driver who just wants reasonable parking and free access to the outside world.

Do you post your full set of fees on a website?
 
Pilot pro tip: Instead of complaining about fees, ask what you can do to waive or reduce some fees. When I worked at an FBO, even as a lowly CSR, I had authority to negotiate fuel prices and waive ramp fees. The people behind the desk can usually do a lot more for you than you think. But if you belittle and complain like a majority of people seemed to do, that wasn't likely to happen.

To my knowledge the U.S. DOT fronts costs for runway and taxiway projects, but most ramps that I am aware of have been constructed by airport authorities using bonds and their own cash. The same goes for FBO facilities . Those are usually not built by anyone other than the FBOs themselves in most localities.

For example, in Dallas, a father/son team invested $2.5m into the construction of the Ambassador Jet Center FBO at Dallas Executive Airport (RBD). Interestingly, while we're on the topic of ramp fees, they don't charge overnight fees there. And the facility itself is very nice.

Also, we're in the 21st century. We don't need FBOs to publish their prices for us. (I agree it would be nice, though.) We can communicate via the comments section in Foreflight and AirNav about the fees we incur.
 
FloridaPilot said:
Why are Pilots so cheap?
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Because in a capitalist world you look out for your own interest and get your best deal, same as the FBO. Somewhere, the two come to terms and trade. Having been charged $8/night or $40 max for the month at great FBOs at Class C airports, For $15, I would expect them to throw in a wash and wax, and probably a shoe shine for the pilot.
 
Z06_Mir said:
FBOs are NOT leeching off taxpayers. We are taxpayers. We pay property tax, we pay ground lease rates to the government. We pay sales tax and use tax and fuel tax. Saying that we "leech" off of taxpayers is absurd. We pay PROPERTY tax on structures sitting on ground we DO NOT own. Ground that can be TAKEN at the end of a lease term if the government so chooses.
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This is the same philosophy that Federal employees use, we are paying taxes, but they do not seem to understand that they are paying taxes from our taxes, basically they are just just using more of our money.
When you pay back All the costs that were spent by tax payers, then you can say that you are paying from your pocket.
It just does not seem fair that there are some airports that have empty spaces but the Transient pilots are Not allowed to tie down there because there is an FBO on the airport, and you Must go to the FBO.
 
paflyer said:
I'm going to take a wild guess and suggest that your "clients" aren't the average spam can driver who just wants reasonable parking and free access to the outside world.

Do you post your full set of fees on a website?
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No we don't. It is not the industry standard. Please do feel free to call or email and someone will be happy to give you all the fees including optional ones (hangar). I always call places before I go there so I know what to expect. If you're too lazy to call that isn't my problem. Also if you just look at the "lowest" price on FF for an airport you don't have the right to yell at me cause I didn't tell you my competitor was cheaper.

Harold Rutila said:
Pilot pro tip: Instead of complaining about fees, ask what you can do to waive or reduce some fees. When I worked at an FBO, even as a lowly CSR, I had authority to negotiate fuel prices and waive ramp fees. The people behind the desk can usually do a lot more for you than you think. But if you belittle and complain like a majority of people seemed to do, that wasn't likely to happen..
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This, all of this.

bluesideup said:
This is the same philosophy that Federal employees use, we are paying taxes, but they do not seem to understand that they are paying taxes from our taxes, basically they are just just using more of our money.
When you pay back All the costs that were spent by tax payers, then you can say that you are paying from your pocket.
It just does not seem fair that there are some airports that have empty spaces but the Transient pilots are Not allowed to tie down there because there is an FBO on the airport, and you Must go to the FBO.
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So you're saying because the FBO pays taxes you should get free parking?????? I don't follow. Just because a space looks open doesn't mean it is and doesn't mean someone isn't paying to lease that space. If you had your "free parking" everywhere at every airport who would man the gate? No one? Pretty sure having an open-to-most gate somehwere like KSAN, KHND or even somewhere smaller like KOSH isn't gonna go over real well with the feds. It is not the governments right and duty to give your airplane a free place to park at any airport in the country.
 
Z06_Mir said:
Because a Cheyenne represents more liability on the part of the FBO. Navajos are significantly less expensive to replace than Cheyennes. If somehow the FBO has to replace a prop/engine or heaven forbid the entire airplane, the Navajo is much cheaper and therefore you can offer services to the Navajo for less money.
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Does your insurance Co audit the types of aircraft you handle (like a workman's comp insurance audits payroll)?
 
Z06_Mir said:
So you're saying because the FBO pays taxes you should get free parking?????? I don't follow. Just because a space looks open doesn't mean it is and doesn't mean someone isn't paying to lease that space. If you had your "free parking" everywhere at every airport who would man the gate?
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I am not sure what your idea of free parking is, Pilots paid to buy the land, build the airport, what do you see Free in that?

I am sure that you are not following, I am talking about area on the airport that are open, unused, but access to pilots is not allowed, just to force us to go and increase the profit of the FBOs.

FBOs are not providing safety, they just provide more access, we do not need your gates, we did, and can still do, just fine without FBO's gates, If anything we would be safer if FBOs would not be able to give access from outside to any one.
You are manning the gate because it's to your advantage, for you own profit, not for pilots that want to fly in and use the airport.
 
If their minimum to waive an overnight or ramp fee is 20gallons and I fill up, I usually ask to get an additional overnight waived. It's hit or miss.
 
Z06_Mir said:
No we don't. It is not the industry standard. Please do feel free to call or email and someone will be happy to give you all the fees including optional ones (hangar). I always call places before I go there so I know what to expect. If you're too lazy to call that isn't my problem. Also if you just look at the "lowest" price on FF for an airport you don't have the right to yell at me cause I didn't tell you my competitor was cheaper.
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And why is it "industry standard" to hide the price list under the counter? What do you think this is, the medical profession?
 
citizen5000 said:
The point being the land doesn't belong to the FBO. And there is reciprocation. Visitng pilots are taxpayers for their local fields renting out to others in the same way.
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Next time you hear about a local govt owned airport closing attend the meeting and explain reciprocation and your ownership of the airport.
 
It would be fairly efficient to just post it on a FAQ basis online, just like fuel prices are advertised. Nobody takes umbrage to fuel prices being advertised, I don't understand why asking for the same "courtesy" with regards to fees is blasphemy.
 
SkyDog58 said:
That really isn't unreasonable for transient parking in a decent location.
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I paid $25 to overnight at SEA TAC, that's a privilege you get when parking with the big boys. $30 got me two days parking in Whitehorse, YT no AC in the hotel when it was 90 outside....:(
 
mondtster said:
People don't seem to flinch at spending $20/night to park a car in a parking ramp yet they have a fit over $15/night to park their airplane at an airport, which makes no sense to me.
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Personally if they provide a good service at the destination of my choice I wouldn't think twice about the cash and would most likely tip them for their services..
 
I paid the $3(!) overnight parking fee at Hillsboro, Oregon last summer, and they haven't even cashed my check!
 
Deer Valley charged me some nominal fee like 7 bucks for one night and waived the other with fuel purchase. They also set up my rental for me. The transient fee at my home drome is 15 a night, and there's no FBO. You can call a fuel truck to your plane and that's it. I've not run into anything totally absurd, and if I do, I'll fly 15 minutes away to the next blue or magenta icon on the map. Everywhere I've gone, every FBO has been delightful. I always make sure I try to be as polite as possible, and I *always* purchase fuel.

Now I absofreakinglutely REFUSE to do business at KSMO because of the stupid fees there. Gas used to be 7.50 a gallon, but now it's down to a competitive $5.70/gallon. But there's no transient non-FBO parking, and there are ramp fees and security fees that you get slapped with just for the pleasure of occupying their space. Capitalism at its finest.
 
There is an overnight fee here at Ocean City. When I was going back and forth for the weekends, motor home days, I would pay for a month of overnights in advance and get a discount. They kept a log book and your available days were always there, until you used them. Thy also had the same policy for parking cars in the main lot for the season.

No worries now, I pay for a hangar and retired here. :)
 
EppyGA said:
Just did a weekend trip to Edenton, NC (KEDE). I paid $25 a night to put it in a hangar and fuel (self-serve) was $4.24 per gallon. On the way home we stopped off at Concord (KJQF) to have lunch with family. We were there for an hour and a half. I had them top it off and paid $4.68 per gallon for fuel was hit with a $12 ramp fee.
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That sounds reasonable to me. I'm sure the area around KEDE is nice but it is a bit remote. I'm sure the FBO's overhead reflects that.

Concord is in a prime spot in the Charlotte metro area. I think the city of Concord is still mailing out 5$ landing fee bills after the fact.... got yours yet? Last time I was there I borrowed the loaner car and shopped the adjacent factory outlet mall back before Bass Pro Shop opened in Cary. Though Concord looks like a good Charlotte port for GA, Wilson makes KCLT the best choice.

This whole thing about airports being government (my money!) funded is funny. My money funds every road, highway, and mass transit right of way. Without publicly funded infrastructure we are poorly served indeed, especially as traveling pilots.


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AKBill said:
I paid $25 to overnight at SEA TAC, that's a privilege you get when parking with the big boys. $30 got me two days parking in Whitehorse, YT no AC in the hotel when it was 90 outside....:(
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90 in the YT? How often does that happen?
 
From what I understand our ramp fees are pretty steep. Our competition on the field also apparently doesn't have any fees and the same priced fuel...

It is frustrating seeing GA guys come in and get slapped with a ramp fee off the bat. I can't do anything about it either. Even going above and beyond with windshield washes and water bottles doesn't seem to get the bad taste out of their mouth.
 
With ramp fees being fairly marginally small in the grand scheme of things in regards to revenue...at least for GA and smaller aircraft...I wonder how much more business FBO's would get of they just eliminated them. Truck stop offer free parking to big rigs to entice them to buy fuel there, shop at their stores and eat at their restaurants. Charge for overnight parking, charge for fuel, charge for hangars, charge for "handling" if needed, charge for everything else but why charge admission price to patronize that business?

I have zero problem with paying for service if needed, but to me it psycologically feels like paying to park at the supermarket. I get a chuckle when they counter argument is "but we provide free cookies and coffee"...so you wanna try and entice my with a cookie but drive me away with fees?...OK, then.

Just cuz the business community does not bat an eye at it does not mean it is a reasonable upcharge for non business folks.
 
Anyone that's charging me a ramp fee for a few minutes with a C182 can keep their ramp. There's almost always another airport near by that will waive any fees with a fuel purchase or not charge me unless I'm staying overnight.

A lot of FBOs could learn from KMEI. No ramp fees. Affordable overnight fees. Cheap fuel. They stay busy. The military guys love it and they sell a ton of Jet A to the government.

Oh yeah, and you get free hotdogs, ice cream, and waffles whether you buy anything or not.
 
Oh, be honest. If you publish your fees it allows less wiggle room to quote what ever you want and then negotiate on the phone or in person.

Z06_Mir said:
No we don't. It is not the industry standard. Please do feel free to call or email and someone will be happy to
give you all the fees including optional ones (hangar). I always call places before I go there so I know what to expect. If you're too lazy to call that isn't my problem. Also if you just look at the "lowest" price on FF for an airport you don't have the right to yell at me cause I didn't tell you my competitor was cheaper.
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Part of the problem is diseconomies of scale. As in the volume is low, even at a busy FBO. The parking deck I use at work holds several hundred if not over a thousand cars. It's one of several near my office. How many planes does an FBO handle in a day? Dozens? The gas station near my house has around 20 pumps, and they stay busy, plus people coming in for snacks, drinks, meals and more. How long does a tank of 100LL last at the FBO before a refuel is needed? A couple of weeks or a month?

I often fuel up at self-serve at smaller fields due to cost; especially so in the Baron. :eek: In the summer time though I'm much more willing to pay more to not stand out on the blacktop in the sun. That's value. Not sweating profusely is worth something to me.

The big national FBOs are set-up for a Jet/turbo-prop budget, and I'm not in that financial category. I'd love for there to be a budget option. Unfortunately that's often not an option.

The marble floors and spiffy leather couches in the Signature lobby is not worth more to me than a basic couch and chairs at a mom-and-pop FBO. I'm only going to be there long enough to get my rental car or go to the restroom on arrival and pay for services on the way out. That's why I use Kissimmee Jet Center at KISM and why I get ticked over going to Asheville as there's only Signature there, and they know it. :mad: I get great service at KJC. The "follow-me" car is my rental car and they help move luggage over. I don't care that the furniture isn't brand new.

There's only TAC Air at Lexington; our middle daughter goes to UK. The fees for the Baron are much higher than for the Cirrus. Surprisingly so. The ladies working the desk are great, and have let me slide out when I've dropped off my daughter or picked her up with no fee if the manager isn't there; shhhh. ;) On the downside I've called the night before and asked to have the plane pulled out in the morning and then got there and they weren't sure where it was. o_O It was in the shade, in the late fall, and I had a lot of work to do to get the ice (fortunately soft) off of it. Had they pulled it out in a timely manner, or left it in the sun (it had a cabin cover on it) that wouldn't have been a problem. Grrrrr.

Now, at FBO's that pull the car up to my plane as I park and the linemen help us move luggage to the rental car (with the AC blasting to cool it) I tip those guys. That's value. I make sure I carry cash to tip, just in case.

Provide some value and I'm happy to pay.
 
wayne said:
There's only TAC Air at Lexington; our middle daughter goes to UK. The fees for the Baron are much higher than for the Cirrus. Surprisingly so. The ladies working the desk are great, and have let me slide out when I've dropped off my daughter or picked her up with no fee if the manager isn't there; shhhh. .
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I used to fly a Cheyenne 2 in there and they had young very attractive, college age girls in short shorts (ex winter of course) who would marshal you in to park. No ramp fee back then either. Almost hit the building a few times.....:yesnod: :blowingkisses:
 
SkyDog58 said:
90 in the YT? How often does that happen?
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Yah temps during the summer can be warm if not hot.. Fairbanks, AK in the summer can also be real hot, growing season is short but they grow great vegetables...:)
 
weilke said:
Does your insurance Co audit the types of aircraft you handle (like a workman's comp insurance audits payroll)?
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We have to disclose the different aircraft we serve and they average our premiums based on that. So we give them year before numbers of the type/quantity aircraft we serviced. In a way like a work comp audit, but not quite as much.


Shawn said:
With ramp fees being fairly marginally small in the grand scheme of things in regards to revenue...at least for GA and smaller aircraft...I wonder how much more business FBO's would get of they just eliminated them. Truck stop offer free parking to big rigs to entice them to buy fuel there, shop at their stores and eat at their restaurants. Charge for overnight parking, charge for fuel, charge for hangars, charge for "handling" if needed, charge for everything else but why charge admission price to patronize that business?

I have zero problem with paying for service if needed, but to me it psycologically feels like paying to park at the supermarket. I get a chuckle when they counter argument is "but we provide free cookies and coffee"...so you wanna try and entice my with a cookie but drive me away with fees?...OK, then.

Just cuz the business community does not bat an eye at it does not mean it is a reasonable upcharge for non business folks.
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The goal with the facility/ramp fees is to get people to buy fuel. Fuel is way more profitable than hangar, tie-down and ramp fees. That being said if you eliminate ramp fees you give away your services to those who don't purchase fuel or who purchased fuel next door for a lower price than came to use your services. We used to never, ever charge those fees. But once you're taken advantage of on a reulgar basis, you have to do something.
 
Shawn said:
With ramp fees being fairly marginally small in the grand scheme of things in regards to revenue...at least for GA and smaller aircraft...I wonder how much more business FBO's would get of they just eliminated them. Truck stop offer free parking to big rigs to entice them to buy fuel there, shop at their stores and eat at their restaurants. Charge for overnight parking, charge for fuel, charge for hangars, charge for "handling" if needed, charge for everything else but why charge admission price to patronize that business?

I have zero problem with paying for service if needed, but to me it psycologically feels like paying to park at the supermarket. I get a chuckle when they counter argument is "but we provide free cookies and coffee"...so you wanna try and entice my with a cookie but drive me away with fees?...OK, then.

Just cuz the business community does not bat an eye at it does not mean it is a reasonable upcharge for non business folks.
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The business community doesn't bat an eye at it because, like corporate taxes, it passes it to the customer.
 
Z06_Mir said:
We have to disclose the different aircraft we serve and they average our premiums based on that. So we give them year before numbers of the type/quantity aircraft we serviced. In a way like a work comp audit, but not quite as much.




The goal with the facility/ramp fees is to get people to buy fuel. Fuel is way more profitable than hangar, tie-down and ramp fees. That being said if you eliminate ramp fees you give away your services to those who don't purchase fuel or who purchased fuel next door for a lower price than came to use your services. We used to never, ever charge those fees. But once you're taken advantage of on a reulgar basis, you have to do something.
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Most private flyers don't want "services", they just want to be able to get on/off the field without paying the troll.
 
mscard88 said:
I think it's disgusting though what some of these FBOs charge for someone just picking or dropping off someone.
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It's been a long long time since I've been at any big FBO's. How exactly does a FBO charge you when you pick up or drop off someone? If you pull up to the ramp, shutdown, deplane pax, and then taxi out again, how do they charge you? Same if you pull up on the ramp, load pax, and then taxi out?
 
fasteddie said:
It's been a long long time since I've been at any big FBO's. How exactly does a FBO charge you when you pick up or drop off someone? If you pull up to the ramp, shutdown, deplane pax, and then taxi out again, how do they charge you? Same if you pull up on the ramp, load pax, and then taxi out?
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"Hot" pax drop-off: multiple previous references to line guys being sent out to physically preventing the plane from leaving until the fee is paid.

Pax pick-up: the electronic security door doesn't get the release button pushed for said pax to even get onto the ramp unless he/she is accompanied by a pilot (who has paid up), or by FBO personnel assuring the same has happened. Again may involve blocking the plane.
 
This whole post makes me glad I fly where I do. I have never been to anything but a self serve fuel center and never parked anywhere other than transient parking. And the most I've ever paid was ten bucks for 24 hours.

Might have to try it some day


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wayne said:
Yep, I would love "back 40" parking at times. Or bare bones, which is why I like Kissimmee Jet Center at KISM. They are the lowest price of 3 FBOs on the field; Signature and Odyssey are the other two. Not a fancy lobby, but great staff.
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Just remember to bring your own tiedowns/ropes, otherwise it can be eyewateringly expensive (last time rented tiedowns were $20/day EACH, so $60 in tiedown "rental" per night).. Also, they really, really dislike people using Uber. "Oh you'll have to wait for 20-30 minutes because we don't allow Ubers on our ramp".
The lady working the desk is funny though. She runs a tight ship.
 
I loathe FBOs that won't publish prices. They make it clear that whatever their local business problems are, they want to make those problems my problem.

It's 2017. Your prices on any legitimate business should be one Google search away on my phone. Otherwise, you're wasting my time and yours.

Needing to call on the phone either means you're stuck in the 80s and think land lines are still all the rage, or your hiding something from me as a customer.

Obviously it's the latter. You actually think I wouldn't land at another airport or pay more next door to the FBO who doesn't waste my time having to call and ask.

You'd be wrong. I will. $15 or $50. You look like you know what you're doing on your website with a proper full price sheet? I'm there.

It's a rarity nowadays. FBOs decided to make their local business problems their customer's problems sometime in the 90s and haven't figured out it ****es everyone off yet. They're that rude, knowing nothing will displace them.

I'm your customer. I HATE having to ask you for your secret squirrel price list. Hate is not too strong a word here.

I PRETEND not to mind it because of the above mentioned cluefullness of many of the staff. Honey gathers more flies. Maybe they'll waive something.

But I'm hiding that I hate you wasting my time and yours. Publish prices. Don't be yet another FBO who wants the industry to look shady to anyone who does normal business away from airports. I have no trouble at all getting a price from any other businesses I deal with in life, by punching their business name into my phone's browser. It's 2017.
 
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