The costs of flying

Matthew:
It seems, based on your post, that you are bright and articulate. You have parents that are willing to help you achieve your dream (a real blessing) and for your age you are attempting to think things through before you leap and bite off more than you can chew.

If you really want to get your license, it is going to take considerable sacrifice on your part. You may not be able to "hang out" with the crowd as much as most your age because you will need to be working to accomplish your mission. What I'm saying is your "social life" spending money for the movies, electronic games for the X Box, the latest in footwear may have to be sacrificed to a certain extent.

The question is: Are you willing to sacrifice, find after school employment, and budget your time and money? If so, go for it.

Remember, education comes first, for without it, you will not be able to sustain your flying and other family obligations as they arise.

God, family, education and flying, in that order.

It's inspiring to see young people with goals, other than the "normal" worldly past times of this present generation.

Good luck, Godspeed, and may all your landings be smooth.

Jim
 
jspilot said:
I'm all for following dreams and would never try and discourage anyone from doing so but I do want to point things out for you to consider.
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I don't necessarily disagree with jspilot, but I would like to add a few comments.

I agree that the worst thing possible is to let your skills atrophy and then fly. That said, once you have your license, it is up to YOU to stay safe. I got my license when I was young-ish (21) and then couldn't afford to really fly for about a decade. That said, I'd get current every few years when finances allowed, fly a few times, then hang up the license until I could afford to get current again. I spent MUCH of my non-flying decade legal but dangerous (and no, I didn't fly when I was dangerous). Just because you are legal, doesn't mean you need to be dangerous.
jspilot said:
The other thing to consider is you need to fly often during training, and even after to remain safe. The worst thing to do would be to start and then only fly once every couple of months. I doubt you'd make any real progress that way as you'd constantly be re-learning.
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If you love flying, this really isn't bad. So, you are relearning ... you're in the air. Besides, once you have your license, getting current is 2-5 hours (depending on how rusty you are) and then you're flying again. The marginal cost (both $ and hours) to get in the air is MUCH lower once you have your license.
jspilot said:
Lastly, if flying is not your intended career( I don't know if it is for you) then what is the rush? ... If the journey is going to be rough then maybe waiting until the finances align is the better option.
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Those brief periods of flight over time really kept the fire alive for me. If it is a passion to you like it is to me (and it sounds like it is from your post), you will find those brief period of flight invigorating. You'll land a good summer job one year and have and extra $1000 in your pocket. That will get you current again and a handful of flights over the summer - then you'll hang it up for a year or two or three. After college, one year you'll get a surprise year-end bonus and I know how I spent mine. Eventually, you'll land the job that supports the habit (or at least I did). It's taken me almost 20 years to build my 400 hours, but I've loved flying the entire time, owned a 1/4 share of a 172 and then owned my own experimental.

If you love it, chase it young and then stay as involved as you can. Just don't be stupid and take your girlfriend for a cross country when you are current and dangerous. Be careful, and a bit of an investment now can make aviation part of your life for a LONG time.

How many people on this board waited until they could afford it? That is why there is a rush. You have the time now, you want to do it now, make it happen. Later you'll still be short of cash, then college, then a demanding job, then a wife, then kids, then college payments, then finally, when you are 55, maybe you'll get a license.

Forget that, go for it now and you'll be flying periodically throughout all of that. Your wife will know you are a pilot and won't object later. Your kids will think flying is cool. If you're lucky you'll get to fly them into Oshkosh some day while they're young and they'll never forget it.

If you really want it, make it happen now and enjoy it the rest of your life.

That's why, in my opinion, there is a rush.
 
iflyforfun said:
If you love flying, this really isn't bad. So, you are relearning ... you're in the air. Besides, once you have your license, getting current is 2-5 hours (depending on how rusty you are) and then you're flying again. The marginal cost (both $ and hours) to get in the air is MUCH lower once you have your license.


Those brief periods of flight over time really kept the fire alive for me. If it is a passion to you like it is to me (and it sounds like it is from your post), you will find those brief period of flight invigorating. You'll land a good summer job one year and have and extra $1000 in your pocket. That will get you current again and a handful of flights over the summer - then you'll hang it up for a year or two or three. After college, one year you'll get a surprise year-end bonus and I know how I spent mine. Eventually, you'll land the job that supports the habit (or at least I did). It's taken me almost 20 years to build my 400 hours, but I've loved flying the entire time, owned a 1/4 share of a 172 and then owned my own experimental.

If you love it, chase it young and then stay as involved as you can. Just don't be stupid and take your girlfriend for a cross country when you are current and dangerous. Be careful, and a bit of an investment now can make aviation part of your life for a LONG time.

How many people on this board waited until they could afford it? That is why there is a rush. You have the time now, you want to do it now, make it happen. Later you'll still be short of cash, then college, then a demanding job, then a wife, then kids, then college payments, then finally, when you are 55, maybe you'll get a license.

Forget that, go for it now and you'll be flying periodically throughout all of that. Your wife will know you are a pilot and won't object later. Your kids will think flying is cool. If you're lucky you'll get to fly them into Oshkosh some day while they're young and they'll never forget it.

If you really want it, make it happen now and enjoy it the rest of your life.

That's why, in my opinion, there is a rush.
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Gotta say, that^^^ was the post of the thread... Well said, and I hope you do decide to pursue the license. Just don't spend every last dollar on flight training; be responsible and work hard, and the training will come. I fortunately had the assets for my flight training, but now that it's over I'll be doing the above (flying when I get the money). Hopefully a good internship will come my way and I'll get it. Now, I have this passion and I don't even have to be flying to feel it... However, if I'd never gotten my wings, I wouldn't be thinking "I love flying" while sitting on the ground, I'd be thinking "I wish I could fly... This sucks." So yeah, go for it! Forget what I said earlier about having $10K, and approach this with ingenuity and persistence... and hang around the FBO whenever you get the chance!
 
My advice is to buy a Discovery Flight for either your Mom or your Dad with some of your savings. If they got hooked, maybe they would fork out the money for an airplane and you could fly for gas and the CFI :).
 
somorris said:
My advice is to buy a Discovery Flight for either your Mom or your Dad with some of your savings. If they got hooked, maybe they would fork out the money for an airplane and you could fly for gas and the CFI :).
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I say go to college, find a rich girl (or at least a smart, motivated one), don't have kids until you have a plane and all the ratings you want. Worked for me. :D
 
bartmc said:
I say go to college, find a rich girl (or at least a smart, motivated one), don't have kids until you have a plane and all the ratings you want. Worked for me. :D
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One of my friends is friends with a girl at my school whose dad is a big-shot oil company owner in Texas, and they've got a PC-12... I'm trying to get him to set me up with her :yes:
 
ebykowsky said:
One of my friends is friends with a girl at my school whose dad is a big-shot oil company owner in Texas, and they've got a PC-12... I'm trying to get him to set me up with her :yes:
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Smart :) You go to USC? I'll be flying into Columbia soon.
 
bartmc said:
Smart :) You go to USC? I'll be flying into Columbia soon.
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Nope; Carnegie Mellon up in Pittsburgh. Columbia's where I call home, though. You flying into KCUB or KCAE?
 
ebykowsky said:
Nope; Carnegie Mellon up in Pittsburgh. Columbia's where I call home, though. You flying into KCUB or KCAE?
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Not sure, my wife wants to ride her bike somewhere up that way, haven't looked at the airports yet. CMU? Ahh, I wanted to go there when i was in college and Lycos was king. Too much dinero for me, paid resident tuition at Mississippi State. Majoring in Computer Science?
 
bartmc said:
Not sure, my wife wants to ride her bike somewhere up that way, haven't looked at the airports yet.
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If you're in to small, untowered airports with the smaller FBO feel, CUB is for you... still some transient business jet traffic, but not too much, and a nice sitting area/computer room/coffee area that's open for most of the day and night.
If you like class C, or just want to land at a bigger airport with a bigger FBO/pilot lounge/pretty nice sitting area, etc. then CAE is a pretty cool airport to fly in to. It's not really in the city, though, like CUB is, so it kind of depends on where you're going. They're about a 3-5 minute flight from each other. I did most of my training at CUB, but I enjoy landing at CAE more just because it's cool flying into the bigger scheduled airline destinations as a little 172 (or bonanza in your case). Don't know though, maybe the thrill wears off after a while.

CMU? Too much dinero for me, paid resident tuition at Mississippi State. Majoring in Computer Science?
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Heck no! I like computers and all, but I'm just not confident enough to pick up programming... it's business major for me! Plus, I play soccer here and try to have a bit of a life, so I don't think I'd be committed to that kind of time commitment that CS takes. We've got a pretty darn good business program here though... And yeah, the price kinda sucks, but it's my hope that it'll pay off when I get a job that gives me enough to live on once I get out.
 
ebykowsky said:
If you're in to small, untowered airports with the smaller FBO feel, CUB is for you... still some transient business jet traffic, but not too much, and a nice sitting area/computer room/coffee area that's open for most of the day and night.
If you like class C, or just want to land at a bigger airport with a bigger FBO/pilot lounge/pretty nice sitting area, etc. then CAE is a pretty cool airport to fly in to. It's not really in the city, though, like CUB is, so it kind of depends on where you're going. They're about a 3-5 minute flight from each other. I did most of my training at CUB, but I enjoy landing at CAE more just because it's cool flying into the bigger scheduled airline destinations as a little 172 (or bonanza in your case). Don't know though, maybe the thrill wears off after a while.



Heck no! I like computers and all, but I'm just not confident enough to pick up programming... it's business major for me! Plus, I play soccer here and try to have a bit of a life, so I don't think I'd be committed to that kind of time commitment that CS takes. We've got a pretty darn good business program here though... And yeah, the price kinda sucks, but it's my hope that it'll pay off when I get a job that gives me enough to live on once I get out.
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Throw some CS classes in there, or even a minor. You'll be worth your weight in gold (at today's prices) the day you walk out the door. CMU used to be one of the top CS universities, I suppose it still is.
 
bartmc said:
Throw some CS classes in there, or even a minor. You'll be worth your weight in gold (at today's prices) the day you walk out the door. CMU used to be one of the top CS universities, I suppose it still is.
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I believe they're #2 behind MIT. And I'm planning on taking the intro 110 and seeing how much that leaves me hurting... If it's not bad, I'll progress until my grades can't take it any more. (i.e. until I get a low B )
 
AggieMike88 said:
And check into the EAA Young Eagles program.
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Definitely get set up for a Young Eagles flight. It'll be a lot of fun and once you've completed the flight you'll get a voucher with a code that will get you the Sporty's online private pilot ground school class. That costs the rest of us about $230 but for Young Eagles it's free. And, once you complete that training, the EAA will pay for your first lesson (instructor and airplane for an hour).

There are scholarships out there to be had, as well. I am administering the granting of four $1000 youth scholarships up here in the Portland area this spring, and there are many others. Check out http://youngeagles.org/programs/scholarships/scholarships.asp for more ideas and info.

And I agree with what many others have said: Now is a time in your life when you can stretch yourself, work and earn some money, save you pennies, and live your dreams. The fact that your dad is able and willing to help is awesome. But it's your dream, so do what it takes to go get it. You'll never see the world the same way again.
 
AggieMike88 said:
It also never hurts to start making friends at the local airport. Build a network of contacts who share your passion for flying. You might find one or two that would barter some flying for your time to complete odd jobs.
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Bingo. Get the cheapest reliable car that will get you to the airport and go hang out there. A lot. Pitch in and help the guy washing his plane. See if you can sweep a floor in the service shop. Get to know people. Make friends. Learn about airplanes. Look for flying opportunities. Lucky breaks exist. My son got his license summer before last (right after high school) for less than $2K including checkride. It can happen.
 
John221us said:
This will be a hobby for him, not a career.
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Only 2% of all military aviators are selected for "career" promotions to O-5 and above. You can still get six good years of military flying and about 3000 hours then get out and get after it in another profession.
 
OrangeOkie said:
Only 2% of all military aviators are selected for "career" promotions to O-5 and above. You can still get six good years of military flying and about 3000 hours then get out and get after it in another profession.
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given the outlook for jobs in America that is not a bad idea. get some military training.
 
I visited my flight school today to see how much it would cost to finish my training I have about 16 hr and they told me it would be about 13,000 to finish. Does anyone know ne good financial ads. My school recommended Sallie Mae.
 
!?!?! Is that 13k for a PPL? After 16hrs!?! Where in PA are you? Time to look for a different flight school.
 
Botskys said:
I visited my flight school today to see how much it would cost to finish my training I have about 16 hr and they told me it would be about 13,000 to finish. Does anyone know ne good financial ads. My school recommended Sallie Mae.
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Wow, keep looking. That is ridiculous.
 
ebykowsky said:
I'm starting to wonder if he means 13k total or 13k more...
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Either way, seems exorbitant to me. Please inform us, Botskys!

BTW, OP, those who have told you this is the time are right. No reason you can't get a job and hustle to pay as you go. Do not go into debt for flight lessons.

That means you too Botskys.
 
Have mom take you to Lowes or home Depot. Then buy a $199 push lawn mower, $129 trim/edger and some gloves.

Then go door to door in your neighborhood as far as you can walk in a different direction each day of the week and ask neighbors to let you mow their lawn. Depending on whether you live in a low middle, high middle class hood you can get from $35 -65 per small lawn. Some will pay you to do it every week, others every other week.

Each time you mow a lawn or two you can get another hour of a/c rental more or less. Even if it works out to do 3 lawns for one hour a/c rental and instructor fees you will do very well. Possibly even get your PPL in one long summer/fall period. Probably have plenty of money to put with that $2k to get a small Toyota/Nissan pickup for your business and you might develop it into a real business and upgrade to add some equipment like a trailer, riding mower.

As far as flying now or flying later.....IT WILL NEVER BE CHEAPER TO FLY. Get your license started asap.

There are dozens of things to get in the way of your dreams.....Girls, college, jobs, girls, pregnancy.....girls....

You might even check with your high school votech to see if you can take air craft mechanic classes and get your A&P. that will make it real easy to be an aviator in many ways. It won't pay as much as an Engineer but it i will save you money flying your own plane, plus flying your customers planes. BTW I think the lawn mowing business has better promise to make a good living than A&P as everyone has lawns but very few poeple have planes.
 
bartmc said:
Throw some CS classes in there, or even a minor. You'll be worth your weight in gold (at today's prices) the day you walk out the door. CMU used to be one of the top CS universities, I suppose it still is.
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Being an Internet janitor has been relatively lucrative for a job. Would be more lucrative to own the business that employs said janitors. ;)
 
Three months, 40 hours and $4300 including the medical, written and checkride, in 2010. I used some tips from Jason Schappert of mzeroa.com, who has a great video on making your training less expensive (go 2-3 times per week and study up before each lesson, asking your CFI questions about what you don’t get). http://www.m0a.com/learn-to-fly/

I met Jason at Oshkosh last year and thanked him for the money he saved me. Helped me afford my IFR!
 
I trained 3-4 times per week over the summer in a C-172S and it took me 42 hours and around $10,000 after supplies and everything.
 
I was 15 years old when I started taking flying lessons in 1969. The J3 was eight bucks an hour and the instructor was three. I made eighty five cents an hour part time as a busboy at a restaurant and my folks had no money to give me. I couldn't afford it so it languished until I was 18 and was about to get drafted. I joined the Navy and spent four long years at sea or overseas without so much as even seeing a GA aircraft. When I got out I was married but that bug had never left my soul. I started taking lessons again, took out a $1500 loan and got my private license after 40.5 hours.

If you REALLY want to do it you're gonna do it, nothing is going to stop you. It's almost like an affliction.
 
Yeah, if you really want it you will make it happen.

Even after all the expense of just a ppl, just using that license from then on is expensive in itself. So consider that. Not to discourage, but to warn, it's a sickness you will need to pay for.

I've thrown around $80k at aviation in less than a year with nothing to show for it but a little green card with a bunch of letters on it and some cool photos. lol
 
ProspectingCFI said:
Yeah, if you really want it you will make it happen.

Even after all the expense of just a ppl, just using that license from then on is expensive in itself. So consider that. Not to discourage, but to warn, it's a sickness you will need to pay for.

I've thrown around $80k at aviation in less than a year with nothing to show for it but a little green card with a bunch of letters on it and some cool photos. lol
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I heard a father complain that his daughter had to bundle up 3 kids and go to a laundromat because they couldn't afford a washing machine. The husband was taking flying lessons.

I did manage to get a private pilot's licence and have some fun cross country flights including the Bahamas before I got married.

That story is probably one reason that I put my flying on hold for 25 years, to get the family raised. You need to put your family first.
 
Family first syndrome is often fatal. And why you must start flying as soon as possible. Don't worry about time between lessons, fly now and hustle to finish. Lot of dead guys out there that were going to be pilots someday but didn't live through family first syndrome.
 
Lots of guys who are still alive wanted to make the first family the only one.

ClimbnSink said:
Family first syndrome is often fatal. And why you must start flying as soon as possible. Don't worry about time between lessons, fly now and hustle to finish. Lot of dead guys out there that were going to be pilots someday but didn't live through family first syndrome.
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some of these first hand accounts of the exorbitant costs of post ppl flying are very discouraging. jus sayin.
 
It's not pretty, but it's important to see in advance that the fuel and oil aren't the big contributors to ownership costs. It's also the big reason that co-ownership is so attractive. Nobody (well, almost nobody) uses a plane enough to conflict with additional owner(s) and the benefits can be gigantic.

eman1200 said:
some of these first hand accounts of the exorbitant costs of post ppl flying are very discouraging. jus sayin.
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wabower said:
It's not pretty, but it's important to see in advance that the fuel and oil aren't the big contributors to ownership costs. It's also the big reason that co-ownership is so attractive. Nobody (well, almost nobody) uses a plane enough to conflict with additional owner(s) and the benefits can be gigantic.
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sure, I understand, but really the OP wasn't about ownership, just ppl costs. I'm prepared for the $10k-ish for ppl, but when someone says they spent $80k in a year, I sure hope that was for ownership or partial ownership and not just flying.
 
eman1200 said:
some of these first hand accounts of the exorbitant costs of post ppl flying are very discouraging. jus sayin.
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There are places you can go to and walk away with a PPL for $4,000-$5,000 bucks. It won't be at a SoCal FBO with nice leather couches, fake trees and a ramp full of turbines. There are folks who have their A&P/IA and just enjoy teaching in the 50 year old Cessna 150 they've owned and maintained for the past 25 years. When you show your pilots license, nobody will be able to tell the difference.
 
I posed this on another thread and it just seems to fit right here also.



I met a man whom told me when he was a young man growing up way way back when. He said Aviators helped other aviators.

He was a CFI-IA. I never knew this. One day I was telling him what I needed and he said, not a problem. After we where done I reached for my wallet and he got kinda ****ed. He said just what are you doing, I said paying you. He said, did I ask. I said no but everyone wants something for this type of work. He laughed and said yes everyone today are greedy little ######.

He said this is the way we did it back in the day and I still do it today this way.

So it does not have to cost an arm and leg. It does not have to be this way. It is what we make it.
 
I think the cost issues overlap because it's difficult for newbies to see further than the immediate goal of obtaining a license. It's also understandable because of all the variables and uncertainties. Stories about some guy who started training only to see the plane sold, the instructor retire or disappear, the school close or whatever are a dime a dozen and have been a part of the game since I had hair. Wish it were simpler but don't know how to make it so.

eman1200 said:
sure, I understand, but really the OP wasn't about ownership, just ppl costs. I'm prepared for the $10k-ish for ppl, but when someone says they spent $80k in a year, I sure hope that was for ownership or partial ownership and not just flying.
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