The closer I get to checkride, the further it feels

GreatLakesFlying

GreatLakesFlying

Pre-takeoff checklist
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Leo
Hello, all. This is my first post. I am a new member and I spent the past few days reading the forum before signing up, to get an idea how to frame my dilemma/frustration, below.

I am training towards the PPL with a small school (Part 61) near Chicago. I have 59.7 hours of dual instruction already and another 62.8 hours solo, all in the C172. I have completed all my night, instrument, and cross-country requirements. My instructor of the first 3 months moved on to the airlines and for the past 3 months, I've been working with another instructor. Since Christmas, my current instructor is talking about setting up my checkride. And that's the problem: there is a lot of talking but very little action on this front.

Like any beginner, my flying is not perfect. I do not always land right on top of the centerline. Sometimes I am 2-3 feet left-of-center. I joke that this is a political statement, but my instructor wants me to train more and nail the centerline. My S-turns are not perfect but are not ugly either. And every time I go up with my instructor, I discover that there is something missing and I feel it should have been covered 15-20 hours ago.

For example, with my first instructor, I had nailed my steep turns with the help of trimming nose up. Then, the new instructor asked me to perform them without trim. Of course, I was all over the place (and beyond the ACS requirements). I found this a total waste of my time, because (a) I had mastered the maneuver just fine with trim (b) the AFH says to do steep turns with trim, and (c) I was given no rationale or context for attempting the maneuver without trim. When I challenged it, he said that if I moved my hand from the throttle to the trim, while entering a steep turn, the DPE may use the opportunity to give me an engine failure.

The more time I spend with my instructor fine-tuning my preparation for the checkride, the more inconsistencies I discover in his pedagogy. So far I've shown deference to his skills. He has 40 years of experience and I am a neophyte. But I am an educator and I can tell good pedagogy from not so good.

I begin to lose my confidence in the school and the instructor and, above all, in myself. If, after 60 hours of training, I am not ready for the checkride, what am I doing wrong? Or, what are they doing wrong? OK, the school is a fairly laid back outfit and that's one of the reasons I liked it. But now it begins to feel more sloppy than laid back.

My choices so far are:
  1. Come to terms that I am not PPL material and call it a day;
  2. Stick with the current instructor and plow forward - but that would require for him to give me a solid plan for training, so that we can check off any areas of concern;
  3. Stick with the current school but different instructor;
  4. Dump this school and try with a different one.
I feel that I am so close to the checkride, I can taste it. My instructor has been talking about setting up the checkride for over 2 months now. But he always finds a reason to train some more. I do not believe he is doing it for the money; maybe I am naive! I am -- or, was -- committed to continue renting from him after my PPL and eventually start working towards an instruments endorsement. I think his tactic of training a bit more every time, has to do with lack of consistency, lack of planning, and poor record keeping of training accomplished.

Am I alone in this frustration? Have others felt similarly near the 60-hour point? And if you did, what did you do to move forward?

Thanks in advance for any advise.
 
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Hang in there, you'll make it! New instructor so he'll have his "standards" to get you ready, which means you'll have to repeat maneuvers to his satisfaction.

Welcome!

 
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Ask your instructor to show you where you stand and what you need to accomplish in order to be recommended for the check ride.
 
I won't be much help, but I have been at this for 4 years, have a total of 95 hours, have soloed twice, cross country once, hundreds of landings, and all with 4 different schools and 7 different instructors. I have yet to damage a plane or violate any regs. I have flown in and out of 3 Class D airports and several non-towered. And I still can't get all the elusive endorsements required to take the practical. I have lost confidence in myself, and am now sitting on the fence - fish or cut bait. The only advice I get is "How bad do you want this?". So - how bad do you want this? If you quit now, you'll always wonder. Consider this: Francis Gabreski, the greatest American fighter ace in the European Theater during WWII almost washed out of Army flight training.
 
to the OP: my first thought while reading your post was that your current CFI is either being picky, he’s billing unnecessary time or you’re overstating the issue. if it were me i’d get a second opinion from a different CFI.
 
rk911 said:
to the OP: my first thought while reading your post was that your current CFI is either being picky, he’s billing unnecessary time or you’re overstating the issue. if it were me i’d get a second opinion from a different CFI.
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Rich, thanks. That's what I am thinking too. Find a CFI not connected with my current school, to give me a thorough evaluation and tell me where I stand with respect to the flying part of the practical test. At this point it may be the best investment of $200-$300.

73
 
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Welcome,you need to have a serious talk with your instructor,then a talk with the schools director,at the least you need to have an evaluation,from an independent instructor.
 
Not knowing you or your instructor and having not flown with you to see if what you say is true, (hearing only one side of the story) all I can do is offer opinions.

If you can land within a few feet of straddling the centerline with the main gear, and keep it there, and if all the other important requirements like holding appropriate speeds and crosswind corrections and not over controlling, then being a few feet off center while touchdown is not that important. Holding speeds, altitudes, correct flaring and proper procedures in a safe manner are most important, the bits of polish can come later. Now if you touchdown near the centerline and wander over to the edge of the runway, then more practice is required.

Same with the steep turns, there is no mention in the ACS of using trim or not. If you can master it one way, then I would use that technique, it would be no problem with me if I were your instructor. You current instructors here may know if the DPE's want it one way or another though.

Now if your skills are pretty much acceptable but there's a shortcoming in basic knowledge, something we don't know from one post and one side of the story, maybe additional training is required. Hard to say judging from miles away and from not seeing you fly first hand.
Maybe my opinions don't help you much, but if your post is an accurate assessment, then for some reason I think you're instructor is dragging his feet on the checkride.

CFII MEI.
 
Yoir instructor wants to make sure you are ready. So, every time he sees something that isn't right, it is something you have to prove you do right. You don't have to be at the level of unable to get things wrong, but you do need to get them right most of the time.

Sounds like it would be helpful to ask for a mock checkride (from a different instructor) as a gauge for both of you. If you have completed all the required experience then the next thing is to make sure you are ready for your check ride.
 
I don't think you can effectively train if you are not confident in your instructor. I had an awesome cfi. I trusted his judgment and skills completely. He was extremely safe. The industry lost a good one, he's training on jets right now. Luckily I had a awesome dpe too.

I used trim for steep turns but not after the maneuver started. Pre trim which means you will have to hold forward pressure before starting the steep turn. If you can meet the standards using the trim then you pass that part. My checkride was a breeze. So much anxiety going into it and so relaxed while actually doing it. I set my heading bug on my vertical compass to the wind direction. When he pulled my throttle for simulated engine out I immediately told him the wind direction and there was an airport within gliding distance so I immediately started setting up the landing. After a minute and he saw we were easily making the runway he had me recover and climb. Then I went under the hood for a few minutes. Piece of cake!!

I did all my training in a Cherokee 180 with overhead trim. That may be why I pre trimmed. In a 172 with the trim wheel and throttle in close proximity I don't see a problem with quickly trimming as you start the steep turn. It doesn't take THAT long. Your cfi is just being picky and his way is the ONLY way it seems.
 
GreatLakesFlying said:
Rich, thanks. That's what I am thinking too. Find a CFI not connected with my current school, to give me a thorough evaluation and tell me where I stand with respect to the flying part of the practical test. At this point it may be the best investment of $200-$300.

73
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Start with just asking your current instructor. The answers may be enlightening and free.

As far as the rest goes, if you have the ability to land consistently left of centerline you have the ability to land on it. :) Push yourself. Don’t wait for the instructor to do it.

As far as the technique stuff for the steep turns, if you know which way to trim you know which way to push or pull! Fly the plane. Don’t let it fly you.

You’re an educator, you know the student has to push to mastery and the instructor can’t do it for you.

My FEELING without being there is you’ve plateaued right below ACS standards and want some excuses because it’s frustrating. We’ve all been there.

Strangely this usually means you just need reminded to go PUT the airplane where you want it. Don’t let it go somewhere you don’t allow it to go. You’ll know what I mean as soon as you do it. It’s a paradox of the learning process. If it moves a direction you don’t want, fix it immediately.

Focus hard. Because you’re close to doing it right.

Noticed the 73. You must be a ham. Number of us here. 73 DE WY0X. :) !
 
First off, I know a guy who passed his ride at 130 hours, and his instructor was my instructor, so I know there was no problem there. And this guy is a solid pilot.

I personally would say go find a different CFI at a different airport, set up a time to meet, explain your situation to him face-to-face, and go flying for an hour or two. I think either way that feedback will be worthwhile.
 
If you can get a ride with a CFI who is also a DPE (not the DPE you'll test with), that should give you some trustworthy feedback on where you really stand with respect to ACS.

Hang in there.

73!
AJ4CM
 
GreatLakesFlying said:
I am training towards the PPL with a small school (Part 61) near Chicago. I have 59.7 hours of dual instruction already and another 62.8 hours solo, all in the C172. I have completed all my night, instrument, and cross-country requirements.
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If you do indeed have 62.8 hours of solo without incident, you should have the requisite skills. I cannot fathom anyone flying that many hours solo without getting a checkride signoff. That’s a high ratio of solo to dual. Has this time been a good variety of pattern work, cross country, and doing maneuvers? How do you feel you do solo versus with your CFI? Your dual and solo adds up to 122.5 hours. That’s a lot. I bet you are ready for the ride. If not, I agree with the others. Time for a new CFI.
 
GreatLakesFlying said:
When I challenged it, he said that if I moved my hand from the throttle to the trim, while entering a steep turn, the DPE may use the opportunity to give me an engine failure.
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I seriously doubt the DPE would do this. If youre demo'ing steep turns they usually want to see a steep turn. Plenty of time to fail the engine later. However, if he fails the engine, deal with it, 'cause the steep turns are over.

Whats a 'pedagogy'?
 
Test your CFI. Tell him that if you don’t get your check ride scheduled in the next 2 days, you will find another school and instructor. Just be ready to follow through. Too many schools near Chicago to stick with one. If he’s good, that’s great. Hopefully he’s transferred enough knowledge to you that another 1-20 hours won’t make more difference. Let the examiner fail you. That’s the true test. This PPL is a license to learn.
 
Do you know your CFI's history with other students and checkrides? If the CFI has had a few students fail, he might be extremely cautious to ensure you pass.
 
I found changing CFIs during training to be frustrating.

I completed all my required hours when my CFI took off for law school.
When I contacted a new CFI (who would help me finish my training) I was under the impression that all I had to do was brush up on some landings, get an endorsement and off to CR. Apparently, my maneuvers were anywhere but within ACS.

I was angry at the new CFI first because I thought he wanted to teach me how to fly. (I know how to fly, I have tons of solo hours in the plane... bad attitude!). It took a good heart to heart discussion with the new guy to realize that he was not teaching me to fly, he was teaching me to pass the CR. He is friends with the DPE that I am going to use and he knows what this DPE will want to see me doing. My old CFI taught me how to fly but did not drill me how to pass a CR. All I am doing now is landings/take offs and ACS maneuvers.
The fact that I have a ton of solo hours in my book did not help either; you see I picked up some bad habits that I am trying hard to un-learn now. Soloing that much prior to CR does not help as a student since no one is next to you to correct your mistakes and you may practice 3-point landings (like I did) up to a point of perfecting them but 3-point landing will not pass me on my CR.

I am totally confident in my current CFI and it seems like you are not in yours. I think flying with a different CFI would give you the boost you need to get over this plateau.
 
You are getting screwed. It took me 14 hours to solo and 73 to ppl.
And I was screwed. It’s 40 hours needed to ppl. A few more isn’t a big deal.
Move on to a real instructor.
 
manac said:
You are getting screwed. It took me 14 hours to solo and 73 to ppl.
And I was screwed. It’s 40 hours needed to ppl. A few more isn’t a big deal.
Move on to a real instructor.
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Maybe, maybe not. I picked up a student who had around 30-35 hours and hasn't soloed yet. I've been working him for 5 hours so far and he's no where ready to solo. There's always another side to the story.
 
I hear what you are saying. But be kind get rid of him if he can’t fly.
I love reading about the old training, when they would solo someone with 7 hours in a taildragger.
No, current practice is to milk someone until they confront their cfi.
Sorry I’m so jaded
 
manac said:
I hear what you are saying. But be kind get rid of him if he can’t fly.
I love reading about the old training, when they would solo someone with 7 hours in a taildragger.
No, current practice is to milk someone until they confront their cfi.
Sorry I’m so jaded
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Understand but a bit of liability for the CFI allowing a student who is not ready to solo. Not quite as much to sign them off for a check ride except for a CFI's reputation.
 
They can’t teach anymore.
My son wants to take lessons I need to find him a compatant instructor that can get him his license in 40 or so hours
That is what it should take today.
 
This guy has 60+ hours solo.
Wtf.
 
This isn't about being ready to solo. It's about someone who has a considerable amount of solo time whose CFI won't approve for a checkride. Very different.
 
To the op.
If you rally have 63 hours solo you are a pilot.
Sorry I’m in CT and can’t help you with your instructor.

Matt
 
GreatLakesFlying said:
My choices so far are:
  1. Come to terms that I am not PPL material and call it a day;
  2. Stick with the current instructor and plow forward - but that would require for him to give me a solid plan for training, so that we can check off any areas of concern;
  3. Stick with the current school but different instructor;
  4. Dump this school and try with a different one.

I feel that I am so close to the checkride, I can taste it.

Thanks in advance for any advise.
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Option #4. Sit down with current CFI and the school owner. Ask one question: where, exactly, in the ACS, does my performance not meet the standard...that is, what’s preventing me from being able to take the checkride. Do so with a bit of hubris...come from curious. If the school wants to do a mock checkride, fine...let them cover all costs associated.

Then follow up with this question: what is the plan to get to the checkride from here?

Have a plan that says: if your team can’t get me from here to there given your plan, I’m walking to a competitor.
 
SkyDog58 said:
If you do indeed have 62.8 hours of solo without incident, you should have the requisite skills. I cannot fathom anyone flying that many hours solo without getting a checkride signoff. That’s a high ratio of solo to dual. Has this time been a good variety of pattern work, cross country, and doing maneuvers? How do you feel you do solo versus with your CFI? Your dual and solo adds up to 122.5 hours. That’s a lot. I bet you are ready for the ride. If not, I agree with the others. Time for a new CFI.
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All my solo flying is incident free; the school even asked me to ferry an aircraft from an avionics shop over 50 NM back to the home airport (yes, I got the logbook endorsement to fly this xcountry leg). My solo flying includes a good mix of practicing power on/off stalls, short-field landings, pattern work KPWK, KUGN, and C81, familiarizing myself with the landscape, steep turns, etc. I guess I had a bit too much fun doing this, hence the nearly 62 hours of solo flying. I don't mind that, really.

And for the most part, my flying with the CFI is just like my solo: within ACS. But there is always a hurdle. Last month, for example, he wanted me to perform a take off under the hood. OK, it's intriguing but neither required nor will I ever plan a departure in 0 visibility.

This month he wanted me to perform landings with a direct crosswind at 14 KTS gusting 19 KTS. In a Skyhawk. Did I mention direct, ie landing runway 24 with 15014G19K? Well, it sucked, but I gave it a go and put the airplane down safely and even smoothly.

Last week, it was something totally different. We were practicing at a non-towered airport, and I heard an aircraft on the ground taxiing, as I had turned from xwind to downwind. I called them back and I asked them if they are ready to go or if they were doing a runup. They said they were ready. So I told them I'd extend my downwind a bit to give them time to taxi and depart -- which was appreciated. By everyone except the CFI.

That's what I mean, there is always something to improve, something to change. Whether it's related to ACS or not, it's another story.

OK, enough venting. Thanks for listening.
 
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GreatLakesFlying said:
All my solo flying is incident free; the school even asked me to ferry an aircraft from an avionics shop over 50 NM back to the home airport (yes, I got the logbook endorsement to fly this xcountry leg). My solo flying includes a good mix of practicing power on/off stalls, short-field landings, pattern work KPWK, KUGN, and C81, familiarizing myself with the landscape, steep turns, etc. I guess I had a bit too much fun doing this, hence the nearly 62 hours of solo flying. I don't mind that, really.

And for the most part, my flying with the CFI is just like my solo: within ACS. But there is always a hurdle. Last month, for example, he wanted me to perform a take off under the hood. OK, it's intriguing but neither required nor will I ever plan a departure in 0 visibility.

This month he wanted me to perform landings with a direct crosswind at 14 KTS gusting 19 KTS. In a Skyhawk. Did I mention direct, ie landing runway 24 with 15014G19K? Well, it sucked, but I gave it a go and put the airplane down safely and even smoothly.

Last week, it was something totally different. We were practicing at a non-towered airport, and I heard an aircraft on the ground taxiing, as I had turned from xwind to downwind. I called them back and I asked them if they are ready to go or if they were doing a runup. They said they were ready. So I told them I'd extend my downwind a bit to give them time to taxi and depart -- which was appreciated. By everyone except the CFI.

That's what I mean, there is always something to improve, something to change. Whether it's related to ACS or not, it's another story.

OK, enough venting. Thanks for listening.
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If everything you wrote above is true... run.... don't walk... to another school.
 
Yep. He either got hooked up with a real shady place or he is a troll stringing us along. But if he is for real, the school needs a visit from the local FSDO.
 
Half Fast said:
If you’re concerned about “ferrying” a plane on a student certificate, you’re not the only one......
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Yep, furtherance of business makes that a commercial op. The fact that they would ask you to do that...not good.

And what is wrong with extending downwind to let a plane depart ahead of you? Not sure why CFI would be upset, sounds like good communication between you and the other plane.

I think its time for a new instructor. You will never be "100%" ready for a checkride. You just have to be able to consistently demonstrate the ACS standards. At the least, fly with a different instructor for a mock checkride and have them evaluate where you are at.
 
I gotta ask: did they make you pay for the Hobbs time on the ferry flight?
 
trenton said:
I gotta ask: did they make you pay for the Hobbs time on the ferry flight?
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Of course they did. Otherwise that would have been compensation. You don't think they are some kind of shady outfit, do ya'?
 
SkyDog58 said:
Yep. He either got hooked up with a real shady place or he is a troll stringing us along. But if he is for real, the school needs a visit from the local FSDO.
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I assure you I am not a troll. I am just a disappointed student pilot. Disappointed mostly with myself because I may have missed red flags about the school earlier. Disappointed because I may have let loyalty cloud my judgment. In hindsight, maybe I should have left the school when my original instructor left -- he and I got along just fine. Maybe I should have challenged the school about the necessity of a takeoff under the hood as part of my training for a PPL.

On the positive side, I have 62 hours of safe solo flying. I want to continue learning about aviation and flying. And I am most certainly not trolling. I am looking for some friendly advise, maybe some encouragement, and also some feedback from your experience as you were getting close to your checkride.
 
GreatLakesFlying said:
I am looking for some friendly advise, maybe some encouragement, and also some feedback from your experience as you were getting close to your checkride.
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Okay,...

Friendly Advice
Find a new school before these bozos either go belly-up or get shut down by the FAA. And oh yeah: don't do any more ferry flights, for Orville & Wilbur's sake! The last thing you need right now is a FAR violation.

Encouragement
Hang in there! You're very close, so don't give up now. You can do this! Rah Rah Rah! :happydance: :fcross:

Feedback
My instructor wanted to see me flying well within standards before he signed me off, not just barely making it. That allows some margin for nervousness, minor mistakes, or an evil gust of wind. He was considerably more stringent than the DPE and I appreciated that. By the time he endorsed me, I had already passed the test two or three times and it was just a matter of asking the gov't to confirm the matter.

There are multiple checkride threads and posts on this site. Peruse them to get an idea of what experiences we all had.
 
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