The apple doesn't fall far from the tree. Help please?

rbhankins001

rbhankins001

Pre-takeoff checklist
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Rob
Well, this is a two-fold plea for advice. I will try to keep it short and sweet.

I am a student pilot. My Dad will turn 65 on Dec 10, 2011. He would like to make a parachute jump off the strut of a small plane (182?) and I would like to be at the controls.

Now before you say you wouldn't do that b/c what if something happened . . . please know this: We have talked about it, a lot. He says he will beat me to the ground lol. If something happens it's what he wants to do and wants me to be a part of it (even it it has to be delayed until my ppl is completed).

So the questions (at least the main two as far as we are concerned) are this:

1. Is it possible for him to jump solo (the only way he'll do it) ?? FWIW he made over 80 jumps in the army, including several from the commander of 101st airborne personal plane, helicopter, etc. This will be a low altitude jump (according to him). He packed hundreds of chutes, and was even testing expirimental chutes (which is what stoppped him from jumping more). He broke his pelvis on his last jump with an experimental parachute.

2. I am thinking we will need to be in something like a C182, but not sure? I own and fly regularly in a 150, and my friend's 172. Very comfortable with those. I don't need to land the plane, nor even take off in it, but it would be nice to log some time if the PIC is also a CFI. Will anyone out there let me be at the controls for this? (I am aware of COG shifts, losing airspeed when they're on the strut etc).

So what say you all?

I know my old man is crazy, but it's his life and I want him to be happy. I was choked up when he asked me and no way I could say no. This is something we both really want to do.

Thanks and see you on the ground (his words) !

-Rob
 
My sister recently jumped from a modified (no door or seats, except for pilot) C182 in Africa no less, so its possible. To maneuver out the door, around a CFI sitting right seat is going to be tough.

Hopefully others will have some input.
 
You might be able to make a special arrangement with a skydiving operation for them to put the right seat back in the airplane for a CFI to ride along with you...I think it sounds like a pretty cool idea, hope it works out for you.
 
If he can borrow a parachute rig from someone, I think you can legally just go and do it from the 172. Take the door off beforehand, get to altitude, enter slow flight, he climbs out along the strut and jumps. But with the combination of a pilot who's inexperienced in meat bombing (aim point etc) and an out-of-practice jumper who has never jumped from a 172 (gotta make sure you don't hit the tail etc), I think you should at the very least get a thorough briefing from an experienced skydiver and/or jump pilot.
 
I'd bet the real problem here is insurance, but I'd have to go check ours. I don't remember a no-dropping-people clause, but maybe it's in there.

Not kidding, one of the jokes about why you set up an LLC to own the aircraft and have co-owners purchase shares of the LLC was that if one of the other co-owners decided to drop baby grand pianos out the back, my house wouldn't be included in the lawsuit as it could be with a true "Partnership". Never partners. Always "co-owners of the Corporation that owns the aircraft".

The liability for both aircraft damage and bodily harm to you or your dad is pretty high for the owner of the aircraft.

If your dad's chute doesn't open, besides the personal loss and tragedy, someone's going to have to pay to replace the roof of the house he went through.

I'll let the attorneys speak up about how juicy that lawsuit could become. Probably depends on how deep your dad's and your personal assets go. Mom might be moving into your house afterward.

Not trying to say "don't do it", just piling up the thoughts that'd go through my head that would motivate me to get some professionals involved early. Definitely not a bunch of strangers on a pilot website. ;)
 
Thanks for your insights so far guys!

Denverpilot I agree w you. Liability is my biggest concern in my business.

I know there are some people on here that fly "meat bomb" runs professionally and I'm hoping they will chime in on that aspect. Clearly that type of outfit has the right kind if insurance, waivers, etc that would be necessary. I would prefer to use their plane if possible.

In regards to him getting a 'chute and jumping solo. I'm pretty sure you can take a one day course and jump solo (even though he could prob teach the course lol). He would be willing to do it.

Thanks again everybody, I need more info so please keep it coming!

All the way sir!

-Rob
 
Hey, He is a STUDENT PILOT! That in itself makes it illegal and voids any insurance. Getting an experienced jumper out of a Cessna with the door on is tough never mind an inexperienced jumper and pilot. I fly the local 182 jump plane and there is a lot more to flying skydivers than you think. Also legally you have to file a NOTAM and be in contact with the airspace controller. Don
 
This sounds like a bad idea in so many ways I can't count them all. Good luck, but I think the jumper is not using good judgement at all. Our OP can easily be forgiven, he's a student pilot and isn't supposed to know anything.

Just day no. Bruised egos beat bruised ribs any day of the week.
 
Jump planes usually have either a door that opens to the inside or in the smaller 182s and such a removed door and a modified landing gear on one side to include a little platform. If something does go wrong no matter what type of operation your going to get pants sued off, so the key is getting it right. I like the other comment about talking to a jumpschool. Your easiest and best chance is to just talk an already organized operation to let you fly the plane. You could always just jump with him too.. It is kind of sac-religious for a pilot to jump out of a perfectly good airplane. Still I jumped from a Cessna Caravan @ 15,000ft in Las Vegas.. hey I was on vacation. Dollar-for-thrill it was the second best ROI I ever got! [Aerobatic ride in an Extra 300 was better.] You go from one extreme to the other, first wind so loud you can barely hear yourself scream, then after some pretty rapid deceleration when the chute opens, a nice quiet gentle glide.

<---<^>--->
 
Arbiter419 said:
You might be able to make a special arrangement with a skydiving operation for them to put the right seat back in the airplane for a CFI to ride along with you...I think it sounds like a pretty cool idea, hope it works out for you.
Click to expand...

This sound like the best, safest and legal idea. The outfit I flew the jump plane for I am sure would not have had an issue with this kind of arrangement.

Brian
CFIIG/ASEL
 
Most 182 jump planes have the right hand yoke removed and all but the pilot seat removed. I don't think you would find any jump zone that would allow a low time pilot to fly their airplane. Better yet just go jump with him.
 
This whole thing sounds like a mess, agreed. I completely missed the "Student Pilot" thing...
 
I appreciate all the comments, folks. Thank you for your time.

If I can't find a jump outfit/school to work with, buying a bigger plane is not out of the question. I'm already planning on that anyway.

My ticket will be complete in the very near future. I work a lot in the summer and basically have winters off. Almost there . . .

Anyways, like I stated originally, I don't need to take off or land the plane (although I'd love to). I just need to be at the controls when my Dad jumps off the side. He is an expert jumper (that is why he was testing parachutes back before viet-nam).

We are both crazy I guess, hence the name of this thread!

All the way sir!

-Rob

PS you can trust in this: I haven't gotten where I am today by taking undue risk. I'm fairly conservative by nature. However, I won't deny my old man this request. No matter what it takes, really.
 
rbhankins001 said:
I know there are some people on here that fly "meat bomb" runs professionally and I'm hoping they will chime in on that aspect. Clearly that type of outfit has the right kind if insurance, waivers, etc that would be necessary. I would prefer to use their plane if possible.
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I do but the jump plane does not have dual flight controls -- therefore I cannot provide instruction in it. You'd need a commercial pilots certificate and some 182 time at most places.

There are regulations about dropping jumpers. Refer to the FAR.

Now as to your dad jumping it doesn't sound like he holds a license to do so. He *could* do a static line course at a dropzone, it's about 8 hours worth of ground, and then he could make his jump solo at about 3,000 AGL. The chute would instantly deploy via the static line and an instructor would talk him to the ground over the radio.

You might be able to find a drop zone that has an aircraft larger then a 182 that may have dual flight controls. If you could I'm sure you could talk them into letting you hold the controls when he jumps. Most any 182 is going to have the co-pilot seat ripped out and the controls removed.

Do this right. It's not worth killing your dad over.
 
Jesse,

Thank you man! That's the kind of answer I was looking for. Thank you thank you thank you!!!!

That makes perfect sense.

I won't be killing my old man EVER.

This is his wish. We can find a plane, no prob. Just need the right crew, PIC etc so we can make this happen. I will report back when I find out more.

It's funny that he has to take a static line course (We already assumed this would be a prerequisite). The "teachers" of the course will be ecstatic talking to him I assume . . . anyways we will do what is req'd to do it right, and SAFE.

Anyways thank you so much!!!

I still think he's crazy. I won't deny his few requests . . . he doesn't ask for much from me.

-Rob
 
Just because he has a few jumps back in the day, he really needs to do some research about jumping. As other's have mentioned, it's not as easy as jumping out and pulling a ripcord. Also, his experience would be with round chutes - quite a bit different than with the stuff we jump today. I know 80 jumps sounds like a lot, but I'm a low time jumper and I've got over 250.

Cool idea, not trying to throw water on it - just work with a DZ and make sure he's prepped for the jump.
 
FWIW to anybody . . . I think as far as my Dad is concerned if I had my hands on the controls (whether or not I really had the plane in my hands) he would be okay with it. He really wants this to hapen . . . if the PIC just let me shadow him (which is prob a good idea anyways due to COG shift, etc) it would be just fine.

PS the video will be on youtube, I hope you all like it!

All the way sir!
 
EvilEagle,

Thank you, sir.

I understand, and he does too.

We are both willing to take the necessary steps to make this a safe procedure.

PS I take my boat down here back and forth from Destin to Venice, LA all the time. If you wanna fly over and tuna fish some time we can do that.

Thanks

-Rob
 
Ok so I had to call my old man . . .

He has made 8 jumps in what he referred to as a "parasail" (the rectangular chutes) and it was what the military referred to as HALO (high altitude low opening) jumps.

It's ok if the meat bomb places want their $$$ to do a class or whatever. That is a non issue, money wise, time wise, and learning wise.

He really is putting me out there, I don't mind flyin' him, whatever it takes on my end. Not a big deal.

We are not wreckless cowboys, this is to be done by the book, and safely, period.

If anything unfortunate happens, we are both prepared for that too. We know whats involved.

Thanks everybody!

We will be looking for a service provider within 500 miles of New Orleans, LA. Have plane, will travel!

-Rob
 
My stepsister has a commercial balloon operation that drops jumpers. She'd probably let you handle the balloon for a drop. She's in Temecula.
 
If you find a place that has a Cessna Caravan for a jump plane it might have dual controls and two front seats..

<---<^>--->
 
There is an advisory circular that covers parachuting from airplanes.
I forget right now which one, I tripped over it the other day while researching something else.
 
BTIZ I would really appreciate it if you find it to point me in the right direction. Thanks!

To everyone else, I also appreciate your input and it will all be taken into consideration. Thank you for that.

I believe we may have found an outfit that can make this happen (and do it safely, our main concern). The plane is MUCH bigger than a 182!

Once the final plans are made I will post an update here on POA.

The only "hanging chad" at this point is my Dad's MD signing off. That will (or will not) happen late this week. That could scrub the "mission".

Thanks everyone, this is a great site! Excellent source of primary info.

-Rob
 
Plane will either be a caravan or twin otter! CFI pilot, can log part of the time. I will prob have my certificate in hand before this happens though. I will only be "shadowing" the controls . . .if I'm PIC it will be for a very brief moment in time.


Thanks fo the link to the AC as well.
 
Rob:

That sounds like the perfect answer to your father's and your dilemma.

Good luck with this!
 
rbhankins001 said:
Plane will either be a caravan or twin otter! CFI pilot, can log part of the time. I will prob have my certificate in hand before this happens though. I will only be "shadowing" the controls . . .if I'm PIC it will be for a very brief moment in time.


Thanks fo the link to the AC as well.
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With an instructor on board you can log PIC for anytime you are sole-manipulator of the controls. Basically any portion of the flight that is under Dual Given. Although I suppose he could be giving you instruction the whole time but you may be restricted from acting as PIC with passengers on-board (in a for hire type situation) even with an instructor on-board. That maybe not PIC until the jumpers are away, but whatever. The whole flight is still counts for total time either way. And overall how it gets logged is unimportant, your flying you Dad so he can jump just as you wanted. Pay the extra money to get the whole thing on DVD - worth every penny.

<---<^>--->
 
p1l0t said:
With an instructor on board you can log PIC for anytime you are sole-manipulator of the controls. Basically any portion of the flight that is under Dual Given. Although I suppose he could be giving you instruction the whole time but you may be restricted from acting as PIC with passengers on-board (in a for hire type situation) even with an instructor on-board. That maybe not PIC until the jumpers are away, but whatever. The whole flight is still counts for total time either way. And overall how it gets logged is unimportant, your flying you Dad so he can jump just as you wanted. Pay the extra money to get the whole thing on DVD - worth every penny.

<---<^>--->
Click to expand...

That is applicable only when the pilot under instruction has a Private, Commercial or ATP. The OP at this time is a student (not sure if he's certificated or not).
 
Jaybird180 said:
That is applicable only when the pilot under instruction has a Private, Commercial or ATP. The OP at this time is a student (not sure if he's certificated or not).
Click to expand...

... and it can get a little more complicated than that depending on the type of aircraft - 12,500+, etc..
 
BUF is a true POA'er to know the exception to the exception to the rule (LOL). Good job!
 
p1l0t said:
Even empty?

<---<^>--->
Click to expand...

Im assuming you are refering to be able to log PIC on the "non-135" leg of a trip when you refer to empty.

Max gross weight for the aircraft is the criterion, not weight at takeoff.

Add to that type ratings that are required for turbine powered aircraft and aircraft with a max gross weight of 12,500 lbs or more. And then many larger aircraft require more than one pilot, so you can't solo them -- you must have at least a co-pilot and the co-pilot is not acting nor can he log PIC.

There are also some exceptions to the 12,500 rule, such as the Mu-2. It does not weigh 12,500 but to legally fly one, you must comply with an S-FAR which stipulates training and a PC in the aircraft.

I guess it boils down to why you want to log it. If you're attempting to log it for something useful or just logging it to say "I have 32.067 minutes with my hands on the yoke ok a King Air 350!". Sweet, I guess, but unless you're signing the paperwork, you're not PIC.

I'm by no means an expert, and have no doubts one will correct of I'm wrong. I learn new things daily.
 
Thanks for the info guys!

FWIW I don't care about logged time at all (but it would be a small bonus, maybe a tax write off lol). I have a plane, hrs not important to me at all. I will prob have certificate in hand by then (or at least the signed part from the DPE).

My old man is pumped, he is going to the MD tomorrow to get checked out . . . I personally think he should get a mental evaluation lol. I have no reason to jump out of a perfectly good aircraft!!

Thanks everyone for your (mostly) constructive criticism!

-Rob
 
I guess what I meant was without passengers. As in after they all jumped out does it change anything? It was just a question... My interpretations of FARs sometimes don't match the FAA ones. ;) Can you go back to part 91 on the way down?

<---<^>--->
 
p1l0t said:
I guess what I meant was without passengers. As in after they all jumped out does it change anything? It was just a question... My interpretations of FARs sometimes don't match the FAA ones. ;) Can you go back to part 91 on the way down?

<---<^>--->
Click to expand...

Well, it doesn't depend so much on the "part" you are flying or how many pax are onboard..

I.E. An empty King Air 350/CRJ 200/777 doesn't mean the guy in the right seat can log PIC, unless he is typed and even then, there is generally an appointed PIC, but logging time is all a big game and the only rules in reality are your own scruples.

Some guys are of the "fly what you want, log what you need" variety.

I've watched guys falsify all sorts of flight time,.
 
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