"Thanksgiving Express Lane" - Will this work?

Greebo

Greebo

N9017H - C172M (1976)
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Retired Evil Overlord
http://wbal.com/news/story.asp?articleid=65741

The most significant change is that the Pentagon will open unused military airspace from Florida to Maine to create "a Thanksgiving express lane" for commercial airliners. It will be open next week for five days - Wednesday through Sunday - for the busiest days of Thanksgiving travel.

"This will help mitigate congestion and provide opportunities for the planes to keep on schedule," White House press secretary Dana Perino said. The change also will be in effect during the Christmas travel season.
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Is this for real or is this just hot air?
 
Sounds like BS to me - I don't think the MOA/Restricted areas there have much affect on commercial jet traffic
 
tonycondon said:
they still have to land somewhere
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Yeah but ATC isn't going to be changing STARS and DPs for thanksgiving. The routes are well established, and if the weather slows things down, being able to get TO the airports faster will do Jack and Squawt, and Jack went home.
 
They still have to be stuffed through a funnel to a their final destination regardless of how many are now flying in parallel. I do not believe it is an airspace capacity problem but an airport one.

Perhaps he should have offered the use of several C5 to move people around instead of 30 RJs.
 
I wonder if, when this proves to be ineffective, AOPA can use it as more ammunition to demonstrate the red herring of a complaint that the problem is the SKIES are too busy.
 
I still say, if we would all just start paying a fee for ATC services, for each segment we fly, the whole flight delay thing would be O-VER.
 
Greebo said:
I wonder if, when this proves to be ineffective, AOPA can use it as more ammunition to demonstrate the red herring of a complaint that the problem is the SKIES are too busy.
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I was thinking the same thing

SCCutler said:
I still say, if we would all just start paying a fee for ATC services, for each segment we fly, the whole flight delay thing would be O-VER.
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BLASPHEMER!
 
Greebo said:
I wonder if, when this proves to be ineffective, AOPA can use it as more ammunition to demonstrate the red herring of a complaint that the problem is the SKIES are too busy.
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My thought also.

If the on-ramps and off-ramps are the issue, then straightening the highway won't help.

We'll see how it shakes out.
 
I just do NOT get this.....

Why the hell has AOPA, or the NBAA, or EAA, or even the GAO, and others that KNOW this stuff not been able to get across to the politicians AND the public that it is NOT a freaking airspace issue.

We are reaping a two-pronged whirlwind...lack of new airports/runways thanks to NIMBY's and over booking flights that can take off at an airport by the airlines.

Even if I were not a pilot, once explained it would make perfect sense. Hell even a Senator recently stated that even if NextGen goes "without a hitch" that any true performance increase from it is at least 15 years away. However you can build a runway/airport in a third the time!
 
tdager said:
We are reaping a two-pronged whirlwind...lack of new airports/runways thanks to NIMBY's and over booking flights that can take off at an airport by the airlines.

Even if I were not a pilot, once explained it would make perfect sense. Hell even a Senator recently stated that even if NextGen goes "without a hitch" that any true performance increase from it is at least 15 years away. However you can build a runway/airport in a third the time!
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Assuming all the problems are in the terminal areas, which they are, the remaining problem is space on the ground for adding airports. That's not even an option in an already crowded northeastern US. Unless, there's massive money available to buy the land and homes for building an airport AFTER you get past the NIMBYs.

A few years back in Atlanta they proposed using Gwinnett for RJ commuter traffic. That got shot down quite fast by the NIMBYs as well as local politicians. Even if it went through, growth there is still very limited not to mention the impact on terminal arrivals in that area.

Where there is room to expand, the plans I've heard make no sense. I read recently about desire to extend runways at Jacksonville's Craig Field; presumably to accommodate RJs. The anti-airport crowd is throwing a fit. The part that confuses me... Cecil Field has two sets of 12,000 foot, criss-crossing runways. Why not make use of that resource?

You'll won't likely see another new build idea like DIA after that fiasco.
 
Oh boy, I can't wait to fly through that airspace on the same route that we're assigned everyday that we've never gotten to use before! This is exciting.



Idiots. Way to pander to try to placate the people.

If they need proof this is stupid, I'm sitting in RKD right now waiting for an EDCT time that's 90 minutes in the future going into BOS. Leaving BOS, over basically the same route...no delay. Why? It's not cause they're opening new airspace two hours from now...
 
KennyFlys said:
Assuming all the problems are in the terminal areas, which they are, the remaining problem is space on the ground for adding airports. That's not even an option in an already crowded northeastern US. Unless, there's massive money available to buy the land and homes for building an airport AFTER you get past the NIMBYs.

A few years back in Atlanta they proposed using Gwinnett for RJ commuter traffic. That got shot down quite fast by the NIMBYs as well as local politicians. Even if it went through, growth there is still very limited not to mention the impact on terminal arrivals in that area.

Where there is room to expand, the plans I've heard make no sense. I read recently about desire to extend runways at Jacksonville's Craig Field; presumably to accommodate RJs. The anti-airport crowd is throwing a fit. The part that confuses me... Cecil Field has two sets of 12,000 foot, criss-crossing runways. Why not make use of that resource?

You'll won't likely see another new build idea like DIA after that fiasco.
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And then the politics and money issues. I understand that the Chicago area was going to get a new much larger airport to replace or relieve the conjestion at O'Hare. But they were going to put it on several thousand acres a few miles north on the Wisconsin side of the border. The two states were getting hot about the tax revenue and the economic impacts in the area, and finally the plan was shelved. They had options on the land and everything.
 
Dwight B. Van Zanen said:
And then the politics and money issues. I understand that the Chicago area was going to get a new much larger airport to replace or relieve the conjestion at O'Hare. But they were going to put it on several thousand acres a few miles north on the Wisconsin side of the border. The two states were getting hot about the tax revenue and the economic impacts in the area, and finally the plan was shelved. They had options on the land and everything.
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When was that?
 
BS. Very few MOAs over 24,000 and and 7x7s are not terribly efficient down that low..... sigh.
 
Dwight B. Van Zanen said:
And then the politics and money issues. I understand that the Chicago area was going to get a new much larger airport to replace or relieve the conjestion at O'Hare. But they were going to put it on several thousand acres a few miles north on the Wisconsin side of the border. The two states were getting hot about the tax revenue and the economic impacts in the area, and finally the plan was shelved. They had options on the land and everything.
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I dunno about Wisconsin. Chicago worked to make GARY INDIANA the third airport (even while there still was a third airport). This is while (actually BECAUSE) pols that ain't Chicago are pushing for the third airport to be in Peotone. Peotone has the advantage of being controlled by pols "downstate" (which isn't necessarily south) and the areas south of Chicago.

BTW, DuPage was built so the downstate Republicans could also have some contracts for their buddies and then they gave in to the NIMBYs and banned commercial jets.

Capeche? It's Easy! :p
 
Politicians like to be seen as doing something, even if that something is idiotic and ineffective.

Bob Gardner
 
Come on guys.....at least it's not another TFR or P-40 expanded.......:yes:
 
B-B-B-B-B-B-But they're going to let planes take off side by side at JFK, sez Fox Knewz...
 
I'll be in with the aviation crush pre and post Thanksgiving (@##$%#$), and I don't seeing this help a bit.

I'll take $800 to be bumped, however . . .

Cheers,

-Andrew
 
Looking at some of the details this will only open two jet routes just off of the east coast. That is like adding a couple of lanes to I95 in North Carolina and expecting it to help alleviate the traffic in Manhattan.
 
Greebo said:
Yeah but ATC isn't going to be changing STARS and DPs for thanksgiving. The routes are well established, and if the weather slows things down, being able to get TO the airports faster will do Jack and Squawt, and Jack went home.
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I need to visit some customers on the east coast next week- if the weather goes bad, I won't get home.:goofy:

Actually, I wonder if the Pres (or his people) checked the WX before making this announcement- if the weather is good, there will be minimal delays and it looks like he did something that worked. What about the rest of the airspace? It looks like only the east coast is getting the express lane.

I thought that if the MOA were "cold" one could be vectored into it? So all the east coast MOAs will be cold next week?
 
Good, then I don't feel so stupid. I read that article and wondered just how in the heck that's going to help. I don't remember MOAs and RAs getting in the way of Jet Airways. Talk about the Emperor's new clothes!!!!!!

Gives the airlines more ammo. "We're late, even though the military opened up all their airspace, because hotshot there in the 172 got to jump to the head of the STAR. If they had to pay user fees we'd be on time. Our flight attendants would be nicer too. Plus our seats would be more comfortable.":rolleyes::(:mad:
 
I contend that they're not actually DOING anything (it's not that it's going to be ineffective, it's that it's not actually ANYTHING). The frequency with which I've ever been or heard another IFR a/c get vectored around a MOA/RA is so seldom...this is like saying that for T-giving and XMas only they're going to open up the parts of the US Interstate system that have heretofore been restricted to cars weighing more than 4,000,000lbs. Pointless. Absolutely pointless.
 
Dwight B. Van Zanen said:
And then the politics and money issues. I understand that the Chicago area was going to get a new much larger airport to replace or relieve the congestion at O'Hare. But they were going to put it on several thousand acres a few miles north on the Wisconsin side of the border. The two states were getting hot about the tax revenue and the economic impacts in the area, and finally the plan was shelved. They had options on the land and everything.
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I'm sure each entity was on a power trip and would never give up control of the airport.

It's a given DIA would have never been built if the City of Denver could not annex all that land in Adams County. That city wanted control as much as the City of Atlanta will never give up control of Hartsfield.

It's the politicians who are most hurtful to progress. It's also politic ans who cater to airlines allowing them to remain status quo with no true accountability. Instead, most are in favor of going after the lesser users of the system.

Then, there's the pandering to the ignorant. That's exactly the purpose of this report.
 
smigaldi said:
When was that?
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Fairly recent I thought. No one else around Chicago knows about this? I just heard about it last week visiting relatives in Wisconsin. They knew about it and talked like it was current information that the plan had died.

But then, when the insult or injury is signifcant it can be felt for decades. And they felt it was both.
 
KennyFlys said:
It's a given DIA would have never been built if the City of Denver could not annex all that land in Adams County. That city wanted control as much as the City of Atlanta will never give up control of Hartsfield.
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There were also major objections by the people in the Denver area, not because the airport would be too noisy but because it would be too far away, heck, it's halfway to Kansas! I guess you can't have everything. :dunno:
 
Everskyward said:
There were also major objections by the people in the Denver area, not because the airport would be too noisy but because it would be too far away, heck, it's halfway to Kansas! I guess you can't have everything. :dunno:
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True but that was the only option. And, it's the reason there will likely never be such a change in the northeast.
 
I will let you all know how it goes...like some of you I will be flying the day before Thanksgiving...something I am NOT looking forward to. *sigh*
 
tdager said:
I will let you all know how it goes...like some of you I will be flying the day before Thanksgiving...something I am NOT looking forward to. *sigh*
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I'm with you there...I have the two days before and the day after off, but somehow (despite being the senior FO at the base) I got stuck flying on Thanksgiving. I can't wait to see how this doesn't change a thing.
 
Dwight B. Van Zanen said:
Fairly recent I thought. No one else around Chicago knows about this? I just heard about it last week visiting relatives in Wisconsin. They knew about it and talked like it was current information that the plan had died.

But then, when the insult or injury is signifcant it can be felt for decades. And they felt it was both.
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I've lived in the Chicago area for over thirty years, and this doesn't sound familiar. There's certainly been talk at various times about commercial service in Gary, Rockford, and Peotone, but nothing on the IL/WI border that I'm aware of.
 
gprellwitz said:
I've lived in the Chicago area for over thirty years, and this doesn't sound familiar. There's certainly been talk at various times about commercial service in Gary, Rockford, and Peotone, but nothing on the IL/WI border that I'm aware of.
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That is what I get for listening to relatives who know nothing about aviation. Write it off as a baseless rumor. Perhaps that is all it was.;)
 
wsuffa said:
Gotta be more comfortable than the RJs.
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Nope, not quite. At least the RJ's have a fighting chance to take off on the day scheduled. Old FRED has trouble making scheduled T/O within days. There was a C-5 that sat on the ramp here at EDF for a week due to maintenance issues.
 
gprellwitz said:
I've lived in the Chicago area for over thirty years, and this doesn't sound familiar. There's certainly been talk at various times about commercial service in Gary, Rockford, and Peotone, but nothing on the IL/WI border that I'm aware of.
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Dwight B. Van Zanen said:
That is what I get for listening to relatives who know nothing about aviation. Write it off as a baseless rumor. Perhaps that is all it was.;)
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The only clue I can think of is Milwaukee Mitchell doing promotions as an alternative to O'Hare. Is is closer and a faster trip for those in the north burbs like me.
 
mikea said:
The only clue I can think of is Milwaukee Mitchell doing promotions as an alternative to O'Hare. Is is closer and a faster trip for those in the north burbs like me.
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It'll be 21 years since I moved to Chicago and that was the first I had ever heard of it too. The rumor I like the most is expanded air service at RFD with a high speed rail line down I-90. It would be very cool but I doubt it would ever happen.

Dwight I think someone may have misunderstood something they had heard. The Chicago guys have been pushing O'Hare expansion and a new airport in 'southern' Illinois in the town of Peotone. Which is near Kankakee. It was first put forward by the former governor of Illinois who lives in Kanakee and is now an inmate in prison.
 
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