Thank God for ADS-B

Rykymus said:
Those who do not change and adapt get left behind.

'nuff said.
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Did all my initial training in tailwheel aircraft, didn't even have a starter, so I guess that means I was left behind by the kids learning how to fly in 172s?
 
What does it mean, "if you can afford it"? I assume most posters here have finite amounts of money. So even if they can drop $5,000 on not required avionics without cutting into food and housing budgets, that's still $5,000 less of something else they're going to have money for. Like training. There's a very compelling argument that $5,000 of training for most pilots would be the best way to spend your safety dollars.
 
I have a crazy suspicion that the Millennials are very pro-Facebook-in-the-cockpit with a big fancy tv screen and fish finder, backed up by phones and tablets, while the older generation appreciates modern avionics but can still do just as well with a paper chart and a sharpened pencil.

The older generation learned that way and has been doing it like that for years. The Millenials can't hold a face-to-face conversation, preferring instead to always have a web-connected device where they can quickly Google an answer to appear intelligent.

That should clear things up nicely. ;) and :D
 
Lachlan said:
I have a crazy suspicion that the Millennials are very pro-Facebook-in-the-cockpit with a big fancy tv screen and fish finder, backed up by phones and tablets, while the older generation appreciates modern avionics but can still do just as well with a paper chart and a sharpened pencil.

The older generation learned that way and has been doing it like that for years. The Millenials can't hold a face-to-face conversation, preferring instead to always have a web-connected device where they can quickly Google an answer to appear intelligent.

That should clear things up nicely. ;) and :D
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Do you claim to know the relative ages of people who are for one thing or another? :p
 
The argument could be made that the pre-millenial generation crashing stuff into other stuff is what has made all of the costs of certificated aircraft and parts prohibitively expensive as a result of increased regulation and safety testing for gen-y and millenials to participate at the same rate that the boomers and X-ers were able to. ;):D
 
James331 said:
Did all my initial training in tailwheel aircraft, didn't even have a starter, so I guess that means I was left behind by the kids learning how to fly in 172s?
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Did you refuse to fly anything but Tailwheels without starters, or argue against 172s? I'm just trying to keep the analogy consistent.;)
 
i was going to reply but james331 said it all for me
 
Everskyward said:
Do you claim to know the relative ages of people who are for one thing or another? :p
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I do... These damn kids are all wrong! When real pilots learned how to fly the runways were all uphill, in a snowstorm, there weren't any flatscreen televisions in the cockpit, and we liked it that way! Get off my grass runway!
 
Rykymus said:
Those who do not change and adapt get left behind.

'nuff said.
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Some of us do not want, or need, ADSB.

Most of you here fly normal planes, Bonanzas, Skyhawks and such and make long cross country's. Some here live on the East coast or SoCal, and some, like me, live in the Midwest where it's completely different and not so congested. For those of you that fly like that, and want the latest equipment, that's perfectly fine, I would probably want all the latest gadgets in my plane too. But I don't fly like that.

I've been in aviation long enough to know that I'm no longer going to do any of that kind of personal flying anymore.
I own a '46 Champ, it's all I can afford, and it's the kind of flying I enjoy and I'm going to be doing it until I retire from flying altogether.
I fly under a Class B veil from a Class D airport and I need a handheld radio for the airports I use. In between airports I always turn it off to save the battery, other wise I don't get home. My operations are different from yours, I'm always aware of battery life, you guys don't have to worry about that.
Does that make me "unsafe or irresponsible", I don't think so. I hardly get over 1,000', I'm out flying for the enjoyment of pure and simple flying, not the travel aspect.

For those of you that think I'm just some old fart who has never learned to use a radio and flew from a farm strip all his life. You're wrong, I fly for a living, I've been to JFK, BOS, SFO, DFW and many others, many times in my career. I've done the single pilot 135 and CFI instruction too.

Aviation on a whole is a wide range of pilots and planes. Not everyone fits into the same category as you. So don't look down on a certain group because they aren't like you. I'll try and do that and you should try that too.

Left behind, I'm all for it. I don't get in a plane to push buttons, turn dials and look at electronic screens, I get enough of that cr*p at work.
Like I said, some us don't need or want ADSB.
 
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The beautiful thing is that for ADS-B out, it isn't about you. It's about everyone else.

The FAA mandated OUT... they didn't mandate IN. IN benefits whoever is in the cockpit. OUT benefits everyone outside of it.

So you certainly don't need IN. You're welcome. =D
 
Rykymus said:
Again. Why all the assumptions that those of us who fly with ADSB, GPS, Radios, and transponders, are flying with our heads down and don't enjoy flying as much as those of you in cloth-covered birds with no electrical? I just doesn't make any sense to me.
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I imagine you do enjoy it; just in a very diffrent way.
 
John Collins said:
Just you getting lit up from time to time. ADS-B traffic without ADS-B Out is a toy and used for entertainment purposes.
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Well that's not very reassuring John.

I'll get it, just give me some time to save up some scratch and smelling salts for the Mrs.

I want to do a panel redo in our '64 180 and I kinda want to wait until the end to get the latest tech so she won't be obsolete before the mandate. Also hoping some experimental STC's will come my way.....
 
ircphoenix said:
The beautiful thing is that for ADS-B out, it isn't about you. It's about everyone else.

The FAA mandated OUT... they didn't mandate IN. IN benefits whoever is in the cockpit. OUT benefits everyone outside of it.

So you certainly don't need IN. You're welcome. =D
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Correct and ADS-B Out provides them no more information than a Mode C transponder return does which can be integrated directly into the traffic system for warnings to In aircraft.

Other than a tail number/unique identifier.

So it's not really "beautiful", it's more like "stupid and expensive for no safety need"...

If your argument is that unverified ADS-B Out is somehow safer than an unverified transponder return, there's simply no engineering reason to believe that. Only marketing and sales.

It's essentially propaganda to sell a $2B+ ground system, and you appear to have bought it, without thinking very hard about it.
 
John Collins said:
The FAA is not "fixing" a problem one can count on one hand. It was never their stated intention. Read the justification in the Federal Register and the NPRM.

Not only you keep saying it, the FAA does as well. Never was intended as a poor man's traffic system and you are only poor after you purchase it, at best that is a carrot and the FAA calls the application an aid to visual acquisition and not intended or suitable for traffic avoidance. The airlines don't use it, they have TCAS. High end GA has TAS or TCAS. The FAA agrees with you on the primary point of the system is surveillance. Its primary application is for the airlines. The more sophisticated applications of ADS-B In will only be available in high end systems and benefit the airlines.
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Corporate welfare on the taxpayer's backs. I know this.

What I'm amazed at is the number of non-Airline pilots who've been duped by the "safety" cock and bull story being sold like a drug pusher by people who should know better at "safety" seminars.

Pretty normal stuff over the years. Government folks sell the public on something and a few individuals say, "Ummm, it doesn't actually do that..." but the masses think it *must* have been built at massive expense for *some* "good reason", even if we're building it on a credit card.
 
I don't know what a TCAS would cost, or XM weather, but I'm pretty sure it would be alot more than a GDL88, personally i like ADSB, I don't need it...of course I don't need a plane either
 
denverpilot said:
Correct and ADS-B Out provides them no more information than a Mode C transponder return does which can be integrated directly into the traffic system for warnings to In aircraft.

Other than a tail number/unique identifier.
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Keep in mind that the ADSB-Out identification serves no useful security function. The signal is trivial to spoof and alter. I doubt it would even hold up in a court of law if anybody ever tries to use it as evidence. So while someone can track you... it would be even less useful than taking a picture of your tail number peeking out at the top of a cloud.

Having said that, ADSB-Out isn't just Mode C with a unique id. GPS/WAAS is a lot more accurate and reliable than Radar. It would have been a better system if it was actually authenticated.
 
I wonder why it wasn't actually authenticated.... probably because people threw a fit that there'd be personally identifiable information for the gummint to track them.
 
denverpilot said:
Corporate welfare on the taxpayer's backs. I know this.

What I'm amazed at is the number of non-Airline pilots who've been duped by the "safety" cock and bull story being sold like a drug pusher by people who should know better at "safety" seminars.

Pretty normal stuff over the years. Government folks sell the public on something and a few individuals say, "Ummm, it doesn't actually do that..." but the masses think it *must* have been built at massive expense for *some* "good reason", even if we're building it on a credit card.
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B I N G O


ircphoenix said:
I wonder why it wasn't actually authenticated.... probably because people threw a fit that there'd be personally identifiable information for the gummint to track them.
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Which is a fair security concern.


txflyer said:
Well that's not very reassuring John.

I'll get it, just give me some time to save up some scratch and smelling salts for the Mrs.

I want to do a panel redo in our '64 180 and I kinda want to wait until the end to get the latest tech so she won't be obsolete before the mandate. Also hoping some experimental STC's will come my way.....
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Sounds smart, based on how tech changes year to year, and with what Dynon has been able to do, I'd be waiting too for any panel upgrades.

If dynon is able to STC even 50% of their products for the majority of the certified fleet, it will change the game completely!

Saftey wise I'd take a SV AI over full ADSB anyday, something the NTSB fatals would indicate would be a massive improvement compared to the "saftey" of ADSB, when comparing mid airs to IIMC and CFITS.
 
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ircphoenix said:
Turns out it's the people who fear the government who tend to be more of a security concern than those who don't.
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Good

"When government fears the people, there is liberty. When the people fear the government, there is tyranny."

If you're don't view the government as a possible threat to your way of life you're a fool. I give them as little info and money as I can.
 
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I configured my ads-b out to show my tail number when I'm on 1200... I haven't been to concerned about it yet but I know some want to hide for whatever reason...


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ircphoenix said:
Turns out it's the people who fear the government who tend to be more of a security concern than those who don't.
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I know plenty of people who don't trust government, since government is just other people going after their own personal goals, with someone else's earnings. There's no real servants in government leadership anymore -- probably not since long before I was alive, anyway. Just an oligarchy that lives on massive debt nobody voted for.

Those who don't trust that are right not to, and no security concern to you. Enjoy that propaganda that government is always benevolent, if you like. There's little evidence of that in long term human history. We actually enjoy one that almost is *because* it's questioned heavily, not in spite of the questioners.

(Not to mention all of those rabble-rousers that told the King to stick it up his Royal Ass, at great personal peril, seem to have done alright by us all -- if the Constitution they wrote is followed.)

Anyway -- so we've covered that ADS-B isn't about safety at all (ostensibly what we hire FAA to do - not provide data streams for those tasked to track things) and it isn't orders of magnitude more useful than radar, nor even all that much better, and radar can't be replaced by it, for obvious security reasons -- so it's mostly just wasteful loan-based spending to make someone look useful, and give wads of cash to a few well connected vendors. That and track the movements (for good or bad purposes, but I see no good coming of it) of all the lawful who don't simply switch the thing off.

Enormous waste of resources and time. Unless of course you eat because of one of them good gub'mint jobs, or work for one of the Holy Certified manufacturers. Both for air AND ground stations (ever look up the cost of maintaining all of those ground sites and towers? It ain't cheap kids...)
 
denverpilot said:
I know plenty of people who don't trust government, since government is just other people going after their own personal goals, with someone else's earnings. There's no real servants in government leadership anymore -- probably not since long before I was alive, anyway. Just an oligarchy that lives on massive debt nobody voted for.

Those who don't trust that are right not to, and no security concern to you. Enjoy that propaganda that government is always benevolent, if you like. There's little evidence of that in long term human history. We actually enjoy one that almost is *because* it's questioned heavily, not in spite of the questioners.

(Not to mention all of those rabble-rousers that told the King to stick it up his Royal Ass, at great personal peril, seem to have done alright by us all -- if the Constitution they wrote is followed.)

Anyway -- so we've covered that ADS-B isn't about safety at all (ostensibly what we hire FAA to do - not provide data streams for those tasked to track things) and it isn't orders of magnitude more useful than radar, nor even all that much better, and radar can't be replaced by it, for obvious security reasons -- so it's mostly just wasteful loan-based spending to make someone look useful, and give wads of cash to a few well connected vendors. That and track the movements (for good or bad purposes, but I see no good coming of it) of all the lawful who don't simply switch the thing off.

Enormous waste of resources and time. Unless of course you eat because of one of them good gub'mint jobs, or work for one of the Holy Certified manufacturers. Both for air AND ground stations (ever look up the cost of maintaining all of those ground sites and towers? It ain't cheap kids...)
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Wp4o0.gif
 
Can't we all just blame Obama or hell blame Hillary and just get along...... I likey ads-b !


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James331 said:
B I N G O




Which is a fair security concern.




Sounds smart, based on how tech changes year to year, and with what Dynon has been able to do, I'd be waiting too for any panel upgrades.

If dynon is able to STC even 50% of their products for the majority of the certified fleet, it will change the game completely!

Saftey wise I'd take a SV AI over full ADSB anyday, something the NTSB fatals would indicate would be a massive improvement compared to the "saftey" of ADSB, when comparing mid airs to IIMC and CFITS.
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I really want SVX even though I remain a VFR pilot by choice. I've had all kinds of IFR training and even passed the written twice but did not follow through with it because I guess I just wanted to prove to myself I could do it, but knew I will not fly enough instruments to be what I think is good at it.

I've read most VFR pilots can handle five maybe fifteen minutes in the soup then things can go sideways. I think I can handle a little more than that but not being rated sets a personal minimum for me. If it's scuddy, I just don't go.

With SVX I feel confident I could fly all day long in the slag.
 
denverpilot said:
I know plenty of people who don't trust government, since government is just other people going after their own personal goals, with someone else's earnings. There's no real servants in government leadership anymore -- probably not since long before I was alive, anyway.

And yet there are those of us who abandon our personal business to serve in local government at a salary about a quarter of what we were making in the private sector, rebuild an ailing airport, build a new library with all the new stuff that you all wanted, build a new jail to keep you all safe, and build a new recycling/landfill facility,

Then leave office 8 years later with an ex-wife, a failing business, and an empty bank account.

And yet, I'd do it again in a pair of seconds. Because, you stupid jerk, there are those of us out here who believe in the dream. That citizens who take the time out to serve are the guts and core of this country.

And may I ask, what local offices have YOU run for?

Jim
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